Well first off there are just too many simple weapons.
Simple weapons are weapons just about anyone can use because of their commonality to every day things.
Example, hand axe should be a simple weapon, what person in a fantasy realm doesnt spend time chopping wood for the fire?
Battle and great axes are far more complicated and stay martial weapons.
Morningstar, there is a picture in the core rules, make a morningstar having a chain.
Over the course of real world history, this weapon pictured has been called a Mace and chain, a morning star and a flail.
However, if in this game, the morning star does indeed have a length of chain on it, I would suggest #1 making it a martial weapon and #2 whats the difference between a flail and a morningstar?
My vote? just drop the flail, it's and agricultural tool modified by peasants to become a weapon (real world history, also the origin of the nunchuku) and looks nothing like a fantasy flail (agricultural flail has a handle that is 3-4 feet long and short length of chain and a head that is about 2 feet long)
However, in the rules the moringstar has not chance of trip like other chained weapons. Thats because a D&D fantasy morningstar is a spiked mace or club (which is why it was placed originally in simple weapons in 3.5)
Now other anomallies extist with the morningstar. Damage. How can something that is spiked like a shield, do more damage than its non spiked version, but a spiked mace or club (morning star) does not domore damage than its non spiked counterpart?
Here's my suggestions.
If the morningstar is to remain club like (no chain) make it a little more lethal and make it a martial weapon, I think personally it should have a x3 crit.
IF the morningstar is a chained weapon, give it the flail rules and damage and remove it from simple weapons, and drop the flail entry all together (morningstar sounds cooler anyway)
Noe bsck to simple weapons,JAVELIN is simple? Ridiculous.
Javelins when thrown shold also have a x3 crit.
Spears. too many different kinds, short spear, long spear and just spear. STOOPID.
Lance, stop with this jousting lance junk, thats ridiculous, real combatants dont joust! and REAL fighting lances are long spears.
So DROP the short spear, its just spear. and drop long spear because its a LANCE. a Lance unmounted is a LONGSPEAR, same same.
Now a spear its self can be one or two handed so it should be in the one handed category. (because historically spearmen fought holding shields..ie hoplite infantry of the greeks, romans, spartans etc.)
Spear should be able to be thrown but only short distances, not to compete with the javelin, but currently you have a spear which is a two handed weapon, that can be thrown 2o ft, how the heck do you throw it with two hands?
Why can the javelin only go 30 ft? Silly, a javelin can easily go 50ft.
Punching dagger, not a simple weapon, the cestus or katar was a highly skilled and specialized weapon amoung those who used them.
IF the game is intended to allow rogues to have them, give them to rogues as one of the their weapon proficencies.
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quote>>"However, if in this game, the morning star does indeed have a length of chain on it, I would suggest #1 making it a martial weapon and #2 whats the difference between a flail and a morningstar?"
This is simple.
A mace is a blunt ball on a handle. Sometimes it has flanges (knobs) protruding from it.
A morningstar is a mace that has spikes instead of flanges.
A flail has a length of chain with one (or more) balls on the end.
All of these (historically) have come in varying handle lengths, often split into the footman and horseman categories.
If you see reference to a "morningstar" having a length of chain, it has been mislabeled. That is a flail.
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Morningstar, there is a picture in the core rules, make a morningstar having a chain.
I think that this is a mis-labeled art problem, which I sincerely hope will be corrected in the final version. A morningstar is basically a glorified club with a nail through it that just about anyone can use for lethal effect. What is pictured there is a flail, which does require considerable training to use safely and effectively.
As for axes, the hand axe and its larger cousins should stay martial weapons because they do require a greater degree of training than using a simple weapon like a club (ever try to swing an axe and have it land sharp side down when in a fight? Harder than it looks, I bet). The common hatchet and woodsman's axe are not intended for combat and should be considered improvised weapons. IMO the scythe should be too.
The other reason would be to keep the weapon family grouping together. Swords are martial weapon families, so should be axes and flails. They all require specialized training to use effectively.
What I would like to see is a properly illustrated warhammer. Considering the density of iron, the one in the current illustration would way hundreds of pounds.
quote>>"However, if in this game, the morning star does indeed have a length of chain on it, I would suggest #1 making it a martial weapon and #2 whats the difference between a flail and a morningstar?"
This is simple.
A mace is a blunt ball on a handle. Sometimes it has flanges (knobs) protruding from it.
A morningstar is a mace that has spikes instead of flanges.
A flail has a length of chain with one (or more) balls on the end.
All of these (historically) have come in varying handle lengths, often split into the footman and horseman categories.If you see reference to a "morningstar" having a length of chain, it has been mislabeled. That is a flail.
And the footman's version is typically heavier (and bigger) than the horseman's version.
Those flanges are lethal by the way, much better at hurting your foe than a sword.
I agree with the mis labeled art and the definition of morningstar given here ( a spiked club) But I still think a morningstar is more lethal than a mace.
Also historically handaxes were far simpler to train "common troops" in than the longsword.
Most militias were armed with handaxes or spears.
You also have to think of simple weapons being carried by simple monsters.
Morningstars, clubs, hand axes and spears are the weapons of goblins, hobgoblins and orcs.
Only the higher level (ie ones with character levels) would carry bows or swords (ie leaders).
But a 1 hd goblin is almost as likely to carry a handaxe as he is to use a club.
Goblins shouldnt be spawned using shortswords unless its at a non proficiency penalty.
so basically, fix the morningstar art.
so what you are saying is ALL goblins are trained warriors. Do you assume ALL humans are trained warriors?
Letting warriors be proficient with ALL martial weapons is too powerful for that NPC class, they should choose a weapon category like in the rules for fighter, but where as fighters get bonuses to them, warriors proficency is limited to the chosen category, higher level warriors could have more categories (but no bonuses)
It is silly to assume a first level goblin warrior would be as good with his club, or could pick up a fallen characters shortbow and fire away with it.
so what you are saying is ALL goblins are trained warriors. Do you assume ALL humans are trained warriors?
Letting warriors be proficient with ALL martial weapons is too powerful for that NPC class, they should choose a weapon category like in the rules for fighter, but where as fighters get bonuses to them, warriors proficency is limited to the chosen category, higher level warriors could have more categories (but no bonuses)
It is silly to assume a first level goblin warrior would be as good with his club, or could pick up a fallen characters shortbow and fire away with it.
That might be the way you prefer it, but that's not the way it IS.
Warriors are proficient in all martial weapons. They are the backburner to the fighter.
It would be silly to assume that a first level goblin warrior wouldn't take the time to figure out which end of a short sword is sharp, and how to hold a shield. Afterall his life depends on these items just as much as any city militia man's life does, possibly more so has he has to worry about other goblins, goblinoid races, and random adventurers attacking him. If he's a raider goblin he has even MORE reason to want to know how to use his weapons right, as he needs that knowledge to raid effectively.
Or that the human fighter that's used swords all his life would be able to pick up and use a battle axe the first time he's seen one.
Now if we where talking about a first level goblin commoner, adept or expert I would agree with you, but we are talking about a warrior.
The fighter is supposed to a be a combat expert (there by his training and basic understanding of anything that is a weapon)
Warriors are back seat drivers, they should not get the same benefits of training, it should be alot more limited.
Essentially in history, when the short sword was "invented" only the most skilled soldiers could use them effectively (the roman gladius).
Sword fighting of any sort is far more complicated than just stabbing something with the sharp side of the weapon.
What makes a goblin better at using a short sword than a human commoner, or a wizard?
Especially if a goblin has never used one, or even seen one?
Goblins are a low level, less intelligent base monster. In the original incarnations, they used clubs, and morningstars for a reason, why were basic crude weapons that required little intelligence and expereince in its use.
Now goblins can go up in level as anything can, so "expereinced raiders" or even "survivors" of the recent dwarf war would be 2nd or 3rd level warriors.
What is a 1st level warrior? a commoner, that has been trained for the purposes of war. A militia man.
That is the difference between a fighter and a warrior.
The fighter is a professional soldier.
The warrior is a cook, or a farmer, or whatnot that has been trained for a limited time, in case a war happens or fighting to protect a town is required.
Goblins being a violent and warlike race, it would make sense that the vast majority of them would be warriors. But to assume they have had training and experince with every weapon known to the world, sufficent enough to have full proficency with it is silly.
I am smart enough to figure out which side of a short sword does the damage, does that mean I am capable and proficent with one in melee combat? Mind you I spent 5 years in the Army as a paratrooper, and am an expert rifleman, can I put that experience to use with a short sword and shield an go up against a man who is trained in sword combat?
MY guess is I would get beat down, largely due to my inexpereince with the weapon and how to use it in combat.
Being a paratrooper didnt make me proficent in tae kwon do either.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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The historical morningstar-as-flail isn't mislabeled, just a difference in naming conventions. However, the D&D morningstar is indeed the big spiked club variety.
As far as the two-pieces of wood flail, that's an accurate version of a heavy (footman's) flail. But you can also find said weapon with 1-3 heavy spiked balls. The horseman's flail is nearly always of the spiked ball variety.
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I think we're getting beyond the original scope of the topic here.
NPC's that PC's encounter in a combat setting are warriors by default. That defines their CR and sets a baseline for encounters. Their martial weapon proficiency and ability to use heavy armour and shields is just a function of game mechanics. Limiting access to those weapons by culture and technology is another story.
The Warrior does not get access to the feats of the Fighter. Therefore, although the Warrior knows enough to swing a sword effectively or shoot a bow, they do not know enough to do it as well as a Fighter, who can take multiple feats, and has class features which will make him better, before the Warrior, with select weapons than a level 20 Warrior ever will be. Just because you have feats in rifle marksmanship, and possibly a handful in knife and open hand military combatives doesn't mean you couldn't pick up a sword and be able to be fairly effective with it. You just wouldn't be able to use your rifle feats with it.
By the way, goblins, per RAW, are not less intelligent than other PC races. Orcs are, but not goblins. Goblins tend to prioritize things differently than the PC races, but goblins are capable of plenty of skill and technique, if they have the opportunity to practice in their short and desparate lives.
OK, so WHY would goblins have a morning star when they could use shortswords?
given a previous example, if goblins live their lives as raiders (which is how most of us encounter goblins) they would have a never ending access to something as common as a short sword.
They have a need to use the morning star,(or club) for a reason.
they obviously dont have a racial bonus to the morning star, and almost anything smart enough to fight in bipedal combat is going to prefer the short sword to the morning star or club.
Sure the morning star does more damage (1-8 vs 1-6) but ultimately the short sword is more lethal (crit range more common crit hits) more compact and easier to stow (in a sheath) a way better raider weapon.
how many of us have defeated the goblin party, discovered their lair, ridden the world of the swarming club and spear weilding beasties only to disover the magic short sword in the treasure (randomly generated)
The club, spear and morningstar are goblinoid specialities. Anything fro a goblin, to a bugbear can be met swinging one, why?
Howmany clerics or sorcerors are running around with a morningstar?
More or less its a crude weapon, weilded by members of a crude, lawless undisciplined society. A fighter is disciplined and warrior much less so.
How much differnt is a 1st level warrior from a first level fighter?
One of the major differeneces should be skill with weapons and armor.
If you hired 12 1st level fighters as hirelings, would you arm them with short swords, or morning stars?
what would the neighbors think of your personal guard armed with a stick loaded with nasty nails/spikes? Professional bodyguards, or thugs and drunk hooligans?
(Im trying to picture my nieghbor comming out of his garage with a 2x4 loaded with 18 penny nails, comming to beat me up)
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It's a matter of cultural and technological access to weapon types as well as game mechanics. Goblins tend to use spears and morningstars because they're cheap and easy to make.
Remember that most NPC's have NPC classes. An NPC fighter is more likely an elite soldier like a commander or knight (role, not the class) and not a common town guard.
The other thing to consider are mechanical equivalencies vs. appearance. A morningstar from a goblin armoury is just a crude chunk of wood with pointy bits stuck to it. One made by a human weaponsmith is going to look a lot different (tooled handle and forged head).