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Thread to discuss possible new maneuvers which lie outside of the scope of the existing ones. An issue up front being that any new maneuver either requires a pair of feats, or the whole maneuver feat structure needs some thought.
One that jumps into my head is the idea of through an exchange of blows forcing a foe to move other then just back. For example a simple transposition where I switch places with my foe, giving me access to to strike at foes that may be hiding behind their minions, or opening up the combat in narrow conditions.
I see this as also having the meta-benafit that combat really sucks when you are in a 5 foot corridor and the meat shield at the front is taking an awesome action each round, while the other melee characters are firing there range weapons into melee with soft cover, aka not doing squat. DMs and dungeon designers are going to build encounters like these to limit the parties effective ability, but it also limits the fun, opening up a combat maneuver that allows a swap lets savvy players increase the fun as the warrior/barbarian tosses minions back to the meat grinder behind him.
Thoughts, other ideas, resolution of the feat structure if we expand in this direction?
Copied from a post in the New Rule Sugestion section of Alpha3:
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I know it’s late for such an addition but I tried this and it seems to cover situations not covered by other maneuvers.
This is based on the original grapple options of the Alpha1 document and has been playtested and enjoyed by my group.
SNAG
As a standard action, you can attempt to snag a foe, hindering their combat options. If you do not have Improved Snag, improved grab, or a similar ability, attempting to snag a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
You must have one hand free or use a weapon that grants a bonus to disarm or can be used to trip a foe (whip, fails, sickle, ranser, many monk’s weapons, etc.). If you use and are successful at snagging with a weapon or limb, that weapon or limb becomes unavailable to other uses as long as the snag is maintained. You do not need a free hand to resist or break a snag.
A successful snag check has the following results, depending on how much the roll exceeds the DC.
Snagged (DC): If your maneuver is successful, your target cannot move to a space that you do not reach without first breaking the snag, destroying the weapon used in the snag (either using Sunder or a Break Strength Check) or succeeding a bull rush that, in this case, allows movement of the snagged target, if this occurs you can choose to move with the target or let go of the snag (unless the weapon is locked to you in which case you must move with the victim as if being bull rushed). The target is otherwise unaffected.
If the target moves from a square that you reach to a square with a shorter reach you can chose to limit further movement to that shorter reach. The Broken condition attack penalty of a weapon applies to snag rolls using that weapon.
Grabbed (DC +5): If your attack exceeds the DC by 5 or more, your target is snagged and looses the use of one non-motive limb as long as the grab is maintained. In the case of basic humanoids this means the victim can only take actions that require one free hand. For example, your target could make an attack against you with a one-handed weapon or cast a spell, but could not attack you with a two-handed weapon.
The target (no matter how many-limbed) cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a Spellcraft check.
The use of long reach weapons (whip or ranser) in that maneuver allows one to avoid the attack of opportunity from a foe without such reach like a trip maneuver. I’m not sure if the proper weapons should give a bonus to that maneuver but I gave a +2 to the whip and might give a +4 to a lasso (exotic weapon).
I hope this is useful to some.
Tell me what you think.
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Throw person: If a creature you have succesfully pinned, you make a CMB check without the +5 circumstance bonus for maintaining the grapple. Creature that are larger than you add +4 to the DC for every size category larger than yours. If successful you throw the creature 5ft and for every 5 by which the DC is beaten another 5 ft to a max of 20ft. If the creature would pass through an occupied square then compare your CMB check to the creatures whose space is being moved throughs DC, if your check beats their DC then the creature thrown ends its movement in an adjacent space to the target in the square closest to you. Both the creature thrown and the creature struck take 2d6+ strength mod non-lethal damage and fall prone. On a miss or if the creature thrown does not pass through an occupied space it moves it's total distance and still takes this non-lethal damage and is prone. For each size category the thrown creature is smaller than medium deduct 1d6 from the damage dealt to the creature struck, for each size category greater than medium a add 1d6 to creature struck. You may attempt to throw a creature that is not pinned, this adds +15 to the DC.
Momentum Toss: While in a grapple you may use your strength and momentum to send an opponent flying. This effect resolves like a bullrush except you do not provoke an AoO and you cannot follow the creature tossed even if they move greater than 5ft as a result of your check and you have movement left. If you fail your opponent gets a free attempt to toss you, you may end the grapple to prevent this.
Flip: While in a grapple you may attempt to position an opponent so that you may flip them onto their back painfully. This effect resolves as a trip attempt at a -5 to the attempt. If succesful the opponent takes 1d6 non-lethal damage and is prone, neither you nor the creature are considered grappled at this point. For every 5 by which you beat the DC you may add an additional 1d6 non-lethal damage. For an additional -5 you may deal lethal damage with this manuever.
Body: An unconscious or willing creature may be used as a club or projectile. A Body is always applies the -4 penalties for improvised weapons, this cannot be negated short of transforming the body into wood, stone, or metal. To wield a body as a weapon it should be one size category smaller than you, for each size category greater apply an additional -4. Bodies may be thrown as a standard action, make a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 5ft with a maximum range of 20ft, if you succesfully strike your target you may attempt a trip, this does not provoke an AoO and you cannot be tripped if you fail. Bodies do not follow the standard rules for weapon size. Bodies smaller than small deal 1 damage, bodies larger than medium deal an additional 1d6 per size category larger. An unconcious creature used as a weapon takes an amount of non-lethal damage equal to the amount it deals.
this is supposed to look like an entry on the weapon chart
Body - 1d6* 2d6* x2 5ft special bludgeoning
*deals non-lethal damage
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Thread to discuss possible new maneuvers which lie outside of the scope of the existing ones. An issue up front being that any new maneuver either requires a pair of feats, or the whole maneuver feat structure needs some thought.
One that jumps into my head is the idea of through an exchange of blows forcing a foe to move other then just back. For example a simple transposition where I switch places with my foe, giving me access to to strike at foes that may be hiding behind their minions, or opening up the combat in narrow conditions.
I see this as also having the meta-benafit that combat really sucks when you are in a 5 foot corridor and the meat shield at the front is taking an awesome action each round, while the other melee characters are firing there range weapons into melee with soft cover, aka not doing squat. DMs and dungeon designers are going to build encounters like these to limit the parties effective ability, but it also limits the fun, opening up a combat maneuver that allows a swap lets savvy players increase the fun as the warrior/barbarian tosses minions back to the meat grinder behind him.
Thoughts, other ideas, resolution of the feat structure if we expand in this direction?
You know, that is a very good suggestion! It's also in WFRP (as a 'half action'), and if I rememember correctly, it's called 'Maunever Foe'. As you said, it would add more options and excitement to combat.
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Throw person: If a creature you have succesfully pinned, you make a CMB check without the +5 circumstance bonus for maintaining the grapple. Creature that are larger than you add +4 to the DC for every size category larger than yours. If successful you throw the creature 5ft and for every 5 by which the DC is beaten another 5 ft to a max of 20ft. If the creature would pass through an occupied square then compare your CMB check to the creatures whose space is being moved throughs DC, if your check beats their DC then the creature thrown ends its movement in an adjacent space to the target in the square closest to you. Both the creature thrown and the creature struck take 2d6+ strength mod non-lethal damage and fall prone. On a miss or if the creature thrown does not pass through an occupied space it moves it's total distance and still takes this non-lethal damage and is prone. For each size category the thrown creature is smaller than medium deduct 1d6 from the damage dealt to the creature struck, for each size category greater than medium a add 1d6 to creature struck. You may attempt to throw a creature that is not pinned, this adds +15 to the DC.
This. I just can't fathom why the rules in all their editions have never covered throwing an opponent -- because it is not an "optimal" choice?
Anyway, I like this -- you've clearly thought this through, and included stuff I wouldn't even have thought about (e.g. what happens if the thrown creature enters/passes through "occupied" squares). At a first glance the mechanics look pretty solid to me! :)
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This. I just can't fathom why the rules in all their editions have never covered throwing an opponent -- because it is not an "optimal" choice?
Anyway, I like this -- you've clearly thought this through, and included stuff I wouldn't even have thought about (e.g. what happens if the thrown creature enters/passes through "occupied" squares). At a first glance the mechanics look pretty solid to me! :)
Thanks, I know you and I don't always see eye to eye, but these rules evolved over a several page long thread. My goal when creating any mechanic is to make it effective while at the same time keeping a simulationist approach. If you can try them out (my DM is running the game by the rules so I can't use them at least until the playtest ends and the final rules come out, so some playtest feedback would be much appreciated)
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Thanks, I know you and I don't always see eye to eye, but these rules evolved over a several page long thread. My goal when creating any mechanic is to make it effective while at the same time keeping a simulationist approach. If you can try them out (my DM is running the game by the rules so I can't use them at least until the playtest ends and the final rules come out, so some playtest feedback would be much appreciated)
This. I just can't fathom why the rules in all their editions have never covered throwing an opponent -- because it is not an "optimal" choice?
Anyway, I like this -- you've clearly thought this through, and included stuff I wouldn't even have thought about (e.g. what happens if the thrown creature enters/passes through "occupied" squares). At a first glance the mechanics look pretty solid to me! :)
I think you've succeeded in an elegant fashion -- preserved enough of "simulationism" and yet managed to offer it as a nice maneuver to unarmed combat specialists (and I could think of several instances in which it could be effective to anybody in close combat). And I think it's nicely balanced, so it's not "too good". Since I'm DMing our Beta playtest campaign, and the group includes a fighter and a barbarian (both of whom could actually benefit from this maneuver), I think I'm including it in out campaign (I'll let you know how it feels and handles during actual play). :)
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First I wanted to point out that I like CMB, and even though it seems there are areas were improvement can be made I will leave that to others :).
What I wanted to propose is the inclusion of new BASIC combat options for everyone. Things we see in movies and books all the time, such as:
* Taking hostages (ie knife to the neck).
* Rescuing hostages (ie taking care of the above).
* Defending a square (only certain dwarves of great renown can do it)
* Getting in harm's way ("taking a bullet")What other basic maneuvers do you think should be included?
(I posted this a couple of days ago but the post eating monster ate it)
i agree this works as interesting situations
i know the frist one could be a grapple and a pin, with an open possibility to Coup d' grace the hostage, otherwise the pc cleric or wizard who is taken hostage might actually just try yo push away considering she wont receive enough damage even to slow her.
the rescue of hostage i see as a called shot and war of initiatives, in sunday an npc was about to take an PC as hostage, so another PC bullrushed them freeing the badess PC and grappling agaionst the gnol, it was fun
2 last are given as part of PrC... it would be fun that anyone caould do it, just that the PrC were batter at it