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The temple sword is just a longsword for monks, isn't it?Not quite; it's more like a short sword that you can trip with (IIRC). Kind of a super-sickle.
I agree that a "Can Flurry With Weapon X" feat (or line of feats) is fine; they have several of those in Eberron. I'm not sure I like the visual effect of a monk flurrying with a greatsword or battleaxe, though.
I made one a long while back:
Through monastic weapon training, you have mastered a fighting style that makes use of an unusual monk weapon. Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe, for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, flurry of blows class feature.
Benefit: You can treat the selected weapon as a special monk weapon, allowing you to perform a flurry of blows with it. You may only select a weapon with a damage value equal to or less than your base unarmed strike damage value. For example, Ember a Medium 4th-level monk with a base 1d8 unarmed strike damage could select a flail (1d8 damage), a falchion (2d4) or any other weapon with an equal or less damage value with the Weapon Flurry feat, assuming she is also proficient with that weapon and has previously selected Weapon Focus for it.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times, one for each weapon.
I agree that a "Can Flurry With Weapon X" feat (or line of feats) is fine; they have several of those in Eberron. I'm not sure I like the visual effect of a monk flurrying with a greatsword or battleaxe, though.I made one a long while back:
Through monastic weapon training, you have mastered a fighting style that makes use of an unusual monk weapon. Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe, for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, flurry of blows class feature.
Benefit: You can treat the selected weapon as a special monk weapon, allowing you to perform a flurry of blows with it. You may only select a weapon with a damage value equal to or less than your base unarmed strike damage value. For example, Ember a Medium 4th-level monk with a base 1d8 unarmed strike damage could select a flail (1d8 damage), a falchion (2d4) or any other weapon with an equal or less damage value with the Weapon Flurry feat, assuming she is also proficient with that weapon and has previously selected Weapon Focus for it.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times, one for each weapon.
Actually, I like this. It addresses my concern about all monks flurrying with greatswords instead of fists or numchucks; only higher-level monks can do it (and I have no problem with high-level monks doing all sorts of whacky and crazy things).
Personally I don't seen any problem with monks flurrying with greatswords, halberds, and 6 foot bronze statues of Happy Buddah.
Actually, I like this. It addresses my concern about all monks flurrying with greatswords instead of fists or numchucks; only higher-level monks can do it (and I have no problem with high-level monks doing all sorts of whacky and crazy things).
I just want there to be some reason for low-level monks to kick someone. If the monk's unarmed strike is made obsolete starting at level 1, what's the point?
Would a weapon's exotic quality be useful?
What I mean is an option for basic weapons to get a "Tripping" or "Disarming" quality for an extra cost (20 to 50gp). These qualities could require a Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat that would cover any weapon with that quality that could otherwise be used as a normal weapon in regards to proficiency. Monks could be proficient with these qualities.
That would allow any one to have any unusual variant (or real-world exotic weapons) of any existing weapon.
Ex.: Disarming-Falchion: Khopesh sword, Tripping-Longsword: Temple sword, Tripping Battle Axe: Hooked Axe, Tripping-Disarming-Greatsword: That wierd tree-branch looking indian sword-like thingy (that would require two feat to use both qualities but otherwise would work like a greatsword), etc.
Adding these qualities to basic weapons is like upgrading from long-sword to Bastard hence the feat requirement.
I made one a long while back:
Through monastic weapon training, you have mastered a fighting style that makes use of an unusual monk weapon. Choose one type of weapon, such as greataxe, for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, flurry of blows class feature.
Benefit: You can treat the selected weapon as a special monk weapon, allowing you to perform a flurry of blows with it. You may only select a weapon with a damage value equal to or less than your base unarmed strike damage value. For example, Ember a Medium 4th-level monk with a base 1d8 unarmed strike damage could select a flail (1d8 damage), a falchion (2d4) or any other weapon with an equal or less damage value with the Weapon Flurry feat, assuming she is also proficient with that weapon and has previously selected Weapon Focus for it.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times, one for each weapon.
If the feat allows for two-handed weapons, does it mean the monk can use Power attack, Overhand chop and Backswing through a flurry?
Should there be a Two-handed Weapon flurry feat?
Eberron feats were created when humans didn't get a free Weapon proficiency and half-orcs Proficiencies with Power-weapons (on top of their Strength and Wisdom bonuses).
Also, I like Slime's idea of upgrading weapons to make them exotic. It's simple and can lead to interesting, flavored, themed weapons (I don't like most of the present exotic weapons).
DW
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Actually, I like this. It addresses my concern about all monks flurrying with greatswords instead of fists or numchucks; only higher-level monks can do it (and I have no problem with high-level monks doing all sorts of whacky and crazy things).
Thanks! Y'know, that restriction was originally shot down when I first presented it over on the WotC OA board? Like you, I thought it was a bit much without the restiction (which is why I presented the original version here). :)
If the feat allows for two-handed weapons, does it mean the monk can use Power attack, Overhand chop and Backswing through a flurry?
If the player wants to invest that many feats that late in the game, why not?
Should there be a Two-handed Weapon flurry feat?
No, I don't think so. It seems unnecessarily redundant.
Eberron feats were created when humans didn't get a free Weapon proficiency and half-orcs Proficiencies with Power-weapons (on top of their Strength and Wisdom bonuses).
Is it really problematic compared to other, equivalent-level, monk builds or classes?
Is it really problematic compared to other, equivalent-level, monk builds or classes?
Depends, what kind of build did you have in mind?
DW
I didn't have anything specific in mind, I was just posing a question.Depends, what kind of build did you have in mind?
Is it really problematic compared to other, equivalent-level, monk builds or classes?
To allow for some comparisons, I've calculated average damage outputs for three different level 15 human monks, adapted from a build by The Wraith available here: one regular, focusing on grappling; one who switched Str for Dex and selected feats to enhance his output (namely Improved Natural Attack), and one who took the feat presented by Azzy in this thread and taking two-handed feats to enhance his Greatsword output.
Meet the Monk brothers: Monkful, Bashful and Sliceful!
The main difference would reside in their feat choices. Here they are:
Monkful: H- Improved Initiative; 1- Agile Maneuver; M1-Improved Grapple; M2-Stunning Fist; 3-Scorpion Style; 5-Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike); M6-Gorgon's Fist; 7-Shall not Pass; 9-Greater Grapple; M10-Combat Reflexes; 11-Toughness; 13-Weapon Finesse; M14-Medusa's Wrath; 15-Vital Strike.
Bashful: (Switched STR for DEX) H- Improved Initiative; 1- Agile Maneuver; M1-Improved Grapple; M2-Stunning Fist; 3-Scorpion Style; 5-Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike); M6-Gorgon's Fist; 7-Shall not Pass; 9-Greater Grapple; M10-Combat Reflexes; 11-Toughness; 13-Weapon
Finesse; M14-Medusa's Wrath; 15-Vital Strike.
Sliceful: (Switch Str for Dex, FoB with Greatsword (1-1/2 Str), Amulet +3 for GS +5 H- Improved Initiative; 1- Toughness; M1-Improved Grapple; M2-Stunning Fist; 3-Power Attack; 5-Weapon Focus (Greatsword); M6-Improved Disarm; 7-Overhand Chop; 9-Weapon Flurry; M10-Combat Reflexes; 11-Backswing; 13-Shall not Pass; M14-Improved Critical; 15-Vital Strike.
Now let's look at their average damage output in very good conditions: able to flurry, make use of their ki pool extra attack and Vital strike (Sliceful will also use Backswing). I've compiled results against three different ACs: 35, 25 and 20.
Monkful vs AC 20: 96 hp
Monkful vs AC 27: 72 hp
Monkful vs AC 35: 31 hp
Bashful vs AC 20: 144 hp
Bashful vs AC 27: 108 hp
Bashful vs AC 35: 46 hp
Sliceful vs AC 20: 150 hp
Sliceful vs AC 27: 122 hp
Sliceful vs AC 35: 53 hp
So, after all, considering the need for a feat, there isn't much difference between taking Improved Natural Weapon and Weapon Flurry, even when taking into account the possibility to get a better weapon than an amulet. So I guess I can take my request for an additional feat and, you know, reconsider it.
Still, a few things remain to be said.
For a standard action, the difference in output is much greater, especially against low ACs. The feat Devastating Blow would increase that gap remarkably in favour of the Greatsword wielder.
Also, the use of reach weapons, combined with the close reach unarmed strikes is a mighty combo (with Combat Reflexes, Shall not Pass and, yesss, a potion of Enlarge Person...).
DW
So Monk weapons are co-opted farm tools. The only thing different between them and the simple weapons is the funny names? Oh, and they get their own long entries and information. Please recombine them with the normal equivalents, and make any special abilities they have in the hands of a monk something which is a monk class feature.
Are there reasons not to do this?
Oh, and I'm in complete agreement with the OP. Slime's suggestion seems like the way to go.
Preserve flavor and add similar weapons as stated by Slime, like: No need for flavor to equal exoticism (you know what I mean!).
DW
Here's a thought:
Move all the base monk weapons back to simple weapons (except shuriken which is a pretty unique in its use). However, these same weapons are treated as Exotic weapons for what the monk can do with them (somewhat similar to the way that the Bastard Sword is a martial weapon that can be used differently when bought up as an exotic). Then allow the monk to use any weapon he is proficient in and purchases as an Exotic weapon to be used in flurry (and perhaps do extra damage over normal). I would go so far as to say that exotic weapons used in this way would only have to be purchased once as they already require unusual techniques to wield, giving the monk a special niche with such weapons.
A monk's basic weaponry may often be very simple, but the techniques a monk employs with those same weapons would be quite different that what the average person would use. The monk uses a simple weapon in exotic ways. And that's my point.
No the idea is just get rid of all the dumb monk weapons altogether which are basically copies of already existing common weapons.
Nunchuck = light flail
Kama=sickle
My apologies. I thought that part was an understood. Yes, absolutely fold the monk weapons back into their simple counterparts. Then make monks proficient with all simple weapons and the shuriken. Make them able to use all simple weapons as exotic monk weapons (granted, crossbows would require a feat or two to do this) and to purchase any other weapon proficiencies as exotic weapons and allow them to use all exotic weapons as monk weapons.