The Pathfinder Arcane Archer is based too heavily on Fighter and I would like to suggest the following changes to avoid taking ONE OBLIGATORY LEVEL OF ARCANE CASTER.
Currently the Arcane Archer is just a glorified 7th level Bow Fighter(or Ranger) with ONE OBLIGATORY LEVEL OF ARCANE CASTER.
Trust me, I know all about OBLIGATORY LEVELS... ask my DM how many of my characters under his roof have had Fighter level one... 4 out of 5 I think it is.
If the only reason you can think of to take one level of something is for a prestige class requirement and to cast the 'True Strike' spell... its OBLIGATORY.
The changes I suggested above allow a character to attain the Arcane Archer Prestige Class by level 7 or 8 depending on the Arcane Caster Class taken. (Wizard, Sorcerer or Bard)
Then there's the other end of this spectrum... Primary Caster
When my 'Ranged Attack' HUMAN Celestial Sorcerer gets 6th level (+3 BAB), he then has to take THREE OBLIGATORY LEVELS OF FIGHTER(to level 9) simply to meet the current +6 BAB requirements, bleh.
The requirements should be more balanced, plain and simple.
This looks very similar to the requirements tweak suggested for Eldritch Knight (link here). I think it's a good idea, since the Arcane Archer and the Eldritch Knight both combine fighter and arcane caster.
Arcane Shot matches the Arcane Archer's class abilities, but for that very reason it's worthless, because it is made obsolete by Enhance Arrows at 1st level.
1/2 spell progression would certainly help with Imbue Arrow.
I have always felt that prestige classes as a whole should be attainable at around 4th level. Granted many would need to be altered as they are too powerfull currently to be attained at such an early point. But if you look at the vast majority of games they end at approx 12-14th level. With many classes being unattainable until 9th or more it ends up feeling like getting your prestige class is an end result rather than a desired build to play. In the case of the arcane archer I would be in favor of a +2 bab, two archery feats, and ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells as prerequisites. You may have to add some lower level abilities to the class or weaken a few of the abilities that come at early levels...but you could make a nice caster/archer hybrid starting at level 5 or 6 depending on your build.
why is it a problem to have a arcane archer just dabbling in the arcane?
why is it a problem to have a arcane archer just dabbling in the arcane?
It's not dabbling, it's ONE level for no other reason than to say "I can cast spells to meet the requirements for a prestige class". Beyond that there is absolutely no reason what-so-ever to have a level of spell caster, none, zip, zero, nadda, zilch.
What's so "ARCANE" about Cantrips and 1st level spells? They're going to be all but worthless unless you take Identify and True Strike. Maybe Mage Armor, but I would hate to see the 8th level 'martial' character who still relies on Mage Armor.
why is it a problem to have a arcane archer just dabbling in the arcane?It's not dabbling, it's ONE level for no other reason than to say "I can cast spells to meet the requirements for a prestige class". Beyond that there is absolutely no reason what-so-ever to have a level of spell caster, none, zip, zero, nadda, zilch.
What's so "ARCANE" about Cantrips and 1st level spells? They're going to be all but worthless unless you take Identify and True Strike. Maybe Mage Armor, but I would hate to see the 8th level 'martial' character who still relies on Mage Armor.
And Shield perhaps (since, being an Archer, he cannot wield properly one).
But you are right, the Arcane Archer offers absoultely nothing in the 'arcane' realm, except some fancy magic arrows for free (well, more or less... wasting a Fighter or Ranger level is not really 'free').It would be WAYS better if the class granted a limited spell progression (as you and other people suggested, progression of caster level every 2 levels).
why is it a problem to have a arcane archer just dabbling in the arcane?It's not dabbling, it's ONE level for no other reason than to say "I can cast spells to meet the requirements for a prestige class". Beyond that there is absolutely no reason what-so-ever to have a level of spell caster, none, zip, zero, nadda, zilch.
What's so "ARCANE" about Cantrips and 1st level spells? They're going to be all but worthless unless you take Identify and True Strike. Maybe Mage Armor, but I would hate to see the 8th level 'martial' character who still relies on Mage Armor.
And Shield perhaps (since, being an Archer, he cannot wield properly one).
But you are right, the Arcane Archer offers absoultely nothing in the 'arcane' realm, except some fancy magic arrows for free (well, more or less... wasting a Fighter or Ranger level is not really 'free').
It would be WAYS better if the class granted a limited spell progression (as you and other people suggested, progression of caster level every 2 levels).
again so what? Creates lots of different types of arcane archers.
again so what? Creates lots of different types of arcane archers.
Please elaborate on "lots of different types" of arcane archers?
I fail to see any variety at all, other than what 1st level spells you pick. Even the Feat trees are going to be 99% the same on every arcane archer.
again so what? Creates lots of different types of arcane archers.Please elaborate on "lots of different types" of arcane archers?
I fail to see any variety at all, other than what 1st level spells you pick. Even the Feat trees are going to be 99% the same on every arcane archer.
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot
Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run
lots of is probably poorly worded
basically, you can have a arcane archer with a lot of arcane in 'em.
I just don't understand why we don't like the 1st level spells requirement
again so what? Creates lots of different types of arcane archers.Please elaborate on "lots of different types" of arcane archers?
I fail to see any variety at all, other than what 1st level spells you pick. Even the Feat trees are going to be 99% the same on every arcane archer.
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot
Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run lots of is probably poorly worded
basically, you can have a arcane archer with a lot of arcane in 'em.
I just don't understand why we don't like the 1st level spells requirement
Well, it's not that I personally don't like the 1st level spells requirement (some spells can be useful to a fighter-type character, really).
But when these same spells are not improved anymore... well, they suddenly do not appear so good when compared to the features you lose not taking another level in your previous martial class (the best ones are always taken last, usually... a Fighter 19/Wizard 1 has some punch, but loses the Weapon Mastery feature and one extra bonus Feat of a pure 20th-level Fighter).So, since the class requires them, and then forgots them almost completely, it appears to me just a "dip for the sake of dipping"...
The features of the class are not helpful, either... Imbue Arrows, for example, would be VERY useful if you can add a Fireball to your arrow; but if you cannot cast Fireball at all, what utility can you have? If you want to use this ability AT ALL having only 1st level spells, the only you can use are Burning Hands, Grease, Hypnotism, Obscuring Mist, and Sleep...
Of course, you can always be a Fighter 5/ Wizard 5/ Arcane Archer 10; you end being a suboptimal archer (BaB +17, Weapon Training +1, Armor Training +1, only 3 Bonus Combat feats) and a joke of a spellcaster (caster level 5 at 20th ? Come on...).
An elven archer would be a better archer as a pure Fighter, a pure Ranger ,or an Order of the Bow Initiate PrC (which is not Open Source, btw), IMHO...
Anyone take the time to compare Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight? It's quite hilarious really.
Here's what I think...
Knock the BAB requirement down to +4.
Given the class, requiring class levels that the PrC does absolutely nothing with (wizard, sorceror, bard) doesn't make any sense. From a purely mechanical standpoint, you could require 1st-level divine spells and it would have no impact on the class at all.
That being said, the casting requirement has to go, or the class needs to have some kind of casting. So here we are on two paths:
1. Remove the casting requirement
1a. Give the class its own spell progression.
I do not support this option, because as soon as your spell progression stops, it becomes useless.
1b. Significantly increase the power of its class features.
I believe this to be the best option, because "+1 existing arcane" will only make it feel like a wanna-be Eldritch Knight, which is far superior to this class.
As far as beefing up the class features, Arrow of Death is a joke. Currently, the earliest one can get into this class is as an 8th level character, and achieve 10 levels of Arcane Archer by 17th level. At 17th level, a DC20 fort save will barely tickle a rogue, and that's if he isn't already immune to death effects. Other than that, this is a waste of a standard action at 17th level when wizards are throwing mage's disjunction and fighters are doing well over 150 damage with a full attack (and a better AC!).
2. Keep the requirement and improve the qualifying caster levels.
If this route is taken, we should slap the Eldritch Knight's casting progression on the class and go from there.
Given the class, requiring class levels that the PrC does absolutely nothing with (wizard, sorceror, bard) doesn't make any sense. From a purely mechanical standpoint, you could require 1st-level divine spells and it would have no impact on the class at all.
That being said, the casting requirement has to go, or the class needs to have some kind of casting. <snip>
THAT is EXACTLY what I've been trying to say! Nicely written Daron.
Given the class, requiring class levels that the PrC does absolutely nothing with (wizard, sorceror, bard) doesn't make any sense.
Thematically, requiring some sort of spellcasting makes sense for the magical abilities of the class. The issue that the spellcasting is not used for anything else (apart from Imbue Arrow) is a problem.
That being said, the casting requirement has to go, or the class needs to have some kind of casting. So here we are on two paths:
1. Remove the casting requirement
1a. Give the class its own spell progression.
1b. Significantly increase the power of its class features.
2. Keep the requirement and improve the qualifying caster levels.
As others have stated, there is a third option:
3. Keep the requirement and grant spellcasting increases every other level (either even or odd)
This is, IMO, the best option as it requires the least changes to the class.
2. Keep the requirement and improve the qualifying caster levels.3. Keep the requirement and grant spellcasting increases every other level (either even or odd)
I meant for this third option to be a part of my second option. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify what I meant.
As far as every other level is concerned, I don't think that is nearly enough because there are too many things wrong with the class. If we come up with a (useful) capstone ability, I might be able to consider a 1/2 casting progression.
While this thread is specifically about the requirements of arcane archer, I think arrow of death needs to be discussed. It's absolutely awful. Seriously. It's forcing the old "massive damage save" with +5 to the DC, except it cannot effect anything with immunity to death effects. This makes the arcane archer's capstone ability arguably worse than massive damage saves (since it can still effect death immune characters).
The best case scenario with this ability is your target rolls a 1 and tanks the save. Total waste of a standard action.
Don't mean to double post, but I wanted to add something here.
Thematically, requiring some sort of spellcasting makes sense for the magical abilities of the class. The issue that the spellcasting is not used for anything else (apart from Imbue Arrow) is a problem.
It does make sense, but there have been plenty of prestige classes in the past that don't require any casting, and they hand over their own spell progression.
I agree that it makes "sense" for our arcane archer to have some kind of magical capability, but we would be justified in giving him magical abilities from nothing.
Imbue Arrow
I just want to point out that, assuming a conservative entry into the class of Fighter 5/Wizard 2, and riding out Arcane Archer, the typical Arcane Archer won't be able to attach a fireball to his arrow until 20th level (Fighter 5/Wizard 5/Arcane Archer 10). If you're a Sorceror, well, you're just gonna have to settle for glitterdust.
A "casting focused" Arcane Archer might look like:
Entry: Wizard 4/Fighter 4.
Full progression: Wizard 6/Fighter 4/Arcane Archer 10.
You're still only getting 3rd level spells by 20th level, with a caster level of 6. So, unless you're using spells that ignore spell resistance and require no save (since your Int probably isn't too hot), you're boned.
If you don't mind waiting forever to get into the class in favor of spellcasting:
Entry: Wizard 8/Fighter 2
Full progression: Wizard 8/Fighter 2/Arcane Archer 10.
This gets you 4th level spells, caster level 8. By the time level 20 rolls around, you still better be throwing no SR/no save spells.
While this thread is specifically about the requirements of arcane archer, I think arrow of death needs to be discussed. It's absolutely awful.
No argument, although it's (somewhat) better than a slaying arrow. Even in 3.5, I usually don't bother with the 10th arcane archer level. Maybe it needs to be:
Arrow of Death (Sp): At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow's attack, to make a DC (15 + the arcane archer's caster level)* Fortitude save or be slain immediately; the target still takes +1d6 extra damage per caster level* on a successful save. Note that even creatures normally exempt from Fortitude saves (undead and constructs) are subject to this attack. When the target is a living creature, this is a death effect (and a death ward protects against it). It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.
*-assuming that the arcane archer grants spellcasting progression every other level.
Giving 1/2 spellcasting progression also helps with your other complaint, giving a wizard 6/fighter 4/arcane archer 10 a CL of 11 with 6th level spells and a wizard 8/fighter 2/arcane archer 10 a CL 13 with 7th level spells. Or, if combat is more your cup of tea, a ranger 2/bard 8/arcane archer 10 has a +18 BAB and casts spells (in light armor) as a 13th level bard (5th level spells).
While this thread is specifically about the requirements of arcane archer, I think arrow of death needs to be discussed. It's absolutely awful.No argument, although it's (somewhat) better than a slaying arrow. Even in 3.5, I usually don't bother with the 10th arcane archer level. Maybe it needs to be:
Arrow of Death (Sp): At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow's attack, to make a DC (15 + the arcane archer's caster level)* Fortitude save or be slain immediately; the target still takes +1d6 extra damage per caster level* on a successful save. Note that even creatures normally exempt from Fortitude saves (undead and constructs) are subject to this attack. When the target is a living creature, this is a death effect (and a death ward protects against it). It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.
*-assuming that the arcane archer grants spellcasting progression every other level.
Giving 1/2 spellcasting progression also helps with your other complaint, giving a wizard 6/fighter 4/arcane archer 10 a CL of 11 with 6th level spells and a wizard 8/fighter 2/arcane archer 10 a CL 13 with 7th level spells. Or, if combat is more your cup of tea, a ranger 2/bard 8/arcane archer 10 has a +18 BAB and casts spells (in light armor) as a 13th level bard (5th level spells).
Basing that on caster levels will have huge ramifications in play beyond 20th level.
Honestly, I think Arcane Archer should get a progression similar to Eldritch Knight's. But that's just me.
Unfortunately, we're way over the discussion time for prestige classes, so there will probably be nothing done at all about Arcane Archer.
This class needs to be thrown out. Ignoring the fact that dedicated archers serve no purpose because spellcasters do more damage at a distance anyway (while melee does so much more damage it isn't even funny) every single class feature is worthless.
Enhance Arrows: What, do these guys live in a world where they can't buy magic weapons? I mean really? This is so redundant I don't even know where to go with it.
Imbue arrow: What am I going to imbue it with? Burning fraken hands for 1d4 because I took the one required level of wizard? Seriously. This is useless. Don't forget I can do it only once per day too. Yay! I rule.
Seeker and Phase Arrow: Ignore your cover HA! Twice per day! I'm the man! Oh... you mean your barrier is magical? I guess not then. Another useless ability that you can use 1/day. Oh boy!
Hail of Arrows (But not more then 10): Wow... So... I could fire 1 arrow at up to ten people 1/day, or I could be a wizard and throw a fireball at a bunch of people many times per day for more damage. Which will I ever choose?! Really. This ability could be worthwhile if facing foes from multiple directions or in melee with the party (since you guys removed Archmage for whatever reason) but 1/day isn't meaningful. This should be 1/day per class level to even be a mediocre class feature. Really, how many times do you run into 10 foes that your wizard can't just fireball out of existence? That's part of Gods job: killing the scum, not part of the beat sticks job: killing the real threats.
Arrow of DEATH AND DOOM!!! Except... it's not. You are a minimum of level 17 when you get this. Once per day you can force an opponent to make a DC 20 fort save or die! Or you know... you could be a wizard and do it multiple times per day. Oh, except this ability is even worse, because it takes a day for you to make your arrow of death, so once every two days you can do it.
You know what the average Fort save is at 17th level? +15. That's including monsters that have pathetic fort saves like undead that completely ignore your arrow. This ability is the worst capstone of all time.
Throw this class out and start over. Look to things like the Order of the Bow Initiate on how to make this even close to worthwhile. Even then I'll never take levels in it, even if you give it all the abilities of THAT prestige class, this one, and 1/2 spellcasting. Ranged attacks are that bad.
Arcane archers would benefit from some spell progression.
It seems to me the only reason to play one is for the mobile artillery platform.
Fireball + distance arrow + seeking + phasing == artillery and instant battlefield death.
Seriously. He can fire the arrow out of visual range. Oh, after 220 feet I get a -2 penalty?
This seems the way to go with this class. Also: the text seems to indicate that with a wand of some heinous area affect spell you could
<area damage spell> + distance arrow all day long.
I would just like, you know, a fire team of these guys.
-Campbell
I'd be happy with it changing base attack requirement to + 5.
increase cast level 1 per 2 levels
imbue arrow allowing for spells other than area spells, maybe touch and ray spells ?
I like the aligned ability stripped, it does not really fit the flavor of the class.
1) enhance arrow
2) imbue arrow, cast lvl + 1
3) elemental arrow
4) seeker arrow, cast lvl + 1
5) distance arrow, weapons training (bows only)
6) phase arrow, cast lvl + 1
7) elemental burst arrow
8) hail of arrows, cast lvl + 1
9) weapons training (bows only)
10) arrow of death, cast lvl + 1
the weapons training would stack with a fighter's weapon training but only for bows.
alternatively you could give the AA access to greater weapon focus and specialization/greater specialization, much like the eldritch knight.
just a suggestion let me know what you think