We should replace the dropped assassin spell progression with a monk ability progression. Turning the assassin into a monk/rogue combo class would make it something more than the mere variant rogue that it is now.
(Besides, quivering palm has assassin written all over it.)
Wow - I've been puzzling over what other "Option" Assassins could have, as I really think they should have their spells for backwards compatibility. Ki points and powers would be a very worth other choice - both mystical.
So how/what would they gain? They would need to acquire them at the same level as spells, and I'd hate to make that one level dip even nicer...
How about gain the choice at 2nd level? Uncanny Dodge and save vs. poison aren't all that much to stack on top of. Assassins previously got 0 first level spells at 1st level, so putting it off to 2nd isn't that large a change.
So how about this?:
Dark Knowledge*: At 2nd level,
Note: Please someone come up with a better name.
Ki Pool (Su): If chosen as his Dark Knowledge,
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, an assassin can spend 1 point to increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Additionally, an assassin can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. An assassin gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation.
Note: No +attack while flurrying, and no unarmed strike being magic. Should stack with monk Ki but can't double the Int/Wis mod.
High Jump (Ex): At 4th level,
Note: Perfect for that ninja-like quality.
Wholeness of Body (Su): At 6th level or higher,
Note: Made this cheaper since lower class level (though monk should be cheaper too - if that's changed will have to consider). Healing's not really an assassin thing but I think this works okay thematically.
Abundant Step (Su): At 8th level or higher,
Note: They get Dimension Door as a spell so this is a no brainer. Should it be cheaper or good as is?
Empty Body (Su): At 10th level,
Note: This would give this ability as early as 15th level - 4 levels before a monk gets it. Too strong?
As cool as Quivering Palm would be for an assassin, it just doesn't quite fit the pattern.
Spells: If chosen as his Dark Knowledge,
Beginning at 2nd level, an assassin gains the ability to cast a number of arcane spells. To cast a spell, an assassin must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so an assassin with an Intelligence of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Assassin bonus spells are based on Intelligence, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the assassin’s Intelligence bonus. When the assassin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Intelligence score for that spell level.
The assassin’s spell list appears below. An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.
Upon reaching 6th level, at every even-numbered level after that (8th and 10th), an assassin can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level assassin spell the assassin can cast. An assassin may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for that level.
Note: Spells per day and Spells Known identical except 1st level would be blank.
I actually have a problem with this class being filed as rogue- or monk-esque. The cool thing I'm seeing about the new class is that it's easily available to members of any class. The skill rank-based prereqs mean that any character with an interest in becoming an assassin can start the PrC at level six.
I agree that the class still needs something, but what if you added the option of some continuation of abilities from the base class? Ability/Unarmed strike damage progression for monk, skills/sneak attack progression for rogue, spell progression for wiz/sorc/cleric/druid, that kind of thing. I like the flexibility of the class the way it is, and would love to see that enhanced. As is, it is definitely a viable dip option for any evil character.
This is an interesting concept...It would give the assassin a bit of a ninja feel.
Hmmm... an Akatsuki Shinobi... cool.
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I like the idea of the Ki Pool, but give them their own special powers, rather then gaining monk powers.
Similarly a pool of Assasin Talents which get added to the Rogue Talent Pool, but which an Assassin can take with Assassin Levels would be interesting.
Or Combine them give them a Ki pool they use to activate Assassin Talents which Can then also be gained as Rogue Talents. Or is that too complicated.
The big problem I have with the ki pool you proposed Majuba, is that the Assassin is meant to technically be independent from the monk. Run it off the same system is cool, stacking it with monk levels for ki pool and such are great (and I love the Ninja theme.) But in order to have a really usable ki pool at all, the Assassin would have to have levels in monk in advance. I really don't think 2+int/wis mod points per level for the whole day is appropriate for a 4th level assassin (likely a 10th level character.)
Why not go with Class level? Its a prestige class so it caps at 10+mod. Yes, monks will end up with a few more ki points this way, but is that really a bad thing? By taking assassin they lose access to alot of their typical class features. They lose further Unarmed damage, lose further movement speed, lose class-based AC progression. It seems a fairly balanced trade to me. A few more ki points, a few different ki powers, and a new Trade to follow, the sneak attack and death attack options that go with it.
Well, I don't quite see why an assassin would need the monk levels to be effective. A 4th level assassin would have the choice of about 4 Ki points or 5 spells (given a 14 Int). 10th level would probably have around 10 Ki points from intelligence items.
I could see it being based on full class level, but it shouldn't be a stronger option than Spells. Either way I'm glad you like the idea write-up.
Or Combine them give them a Ki pool they use to activate Assassin Talents which Can then also be gained as Rogue Talents. Or is that too complicated.That is a bit complicated.
I was just thinking assassin should say: "You gain X,Y, and Z as if you were a monk of your assassin level. If you also have monk levels, your monk and assassin levels stack for X,Y, and Z."
Simple, straightforward, doesn't require you to already be a monk. And as an added bonus, very high cool-factor-to-word-count ratio.
The only problem with this is that it would only provide a couple of Ki powers. Works well for monks, but only monks.
Truth of the matter is, I feel the ki pool system, as it stands, is broken. It feels about the appropriate amount of points for a single encounter, and that there should be a means of meditating to restore them, but sadly its likely too far gone to try to propose such now.
Balancing class abilities on encounters would require all sorts of changes across the board. IE Book of 9 Swords had many people up in arms, taking that a few steps further it becomes 4th Edition.
Just my thoughts on the comparison, due to the differing effectiveness of spells VS ki powers, there should be more ki points availiable, IMHO. Oh, and just one thought to throw out. They should have a "false gravity" effect as a ki power, letting them run on walls etc.
Did you feel that the 3.5 monk needed more powers/abilities than they had? If my DM is correct what happened with the Ki pool was the points add up to allow the monk to do everything they used to do (maybe more points I think) but they weren't stuck with having to reserve those points for abilities that would be useless. Dimension Door going to be useless that day for whatever reason? They can use those Ki points to power the other abilities which are useful.
"False Gravity" already exists in SRD, Up the Walls is a psionic feat in SRD that allows the character to move up walls and across ceilings. The only requirement a wis of 13 (which a monk will have, well SHOULD have anyways) and a feat (Wild Talent). Rather than making up abilities I'd much rather see a line in the class abilities or side bar saying something along the lines of "A monk may take Wild Talent as their bonus feat at 1st level and if they do so, may add any psionic feats that they qualify for to the list of bonus feats they have access to as they gain in level. These feats are found in the SRD which can be found at [insert legal location]". This would also not complicate things with the addition of new Ki powers that are too specific. Not every monk would want to be running around on the walls, just like not every monk would want Improved Grapple vs. Combat Reflexes. Not to mention the psionic theme probably fits more with the monk class than any of the others. That and I want to see more psionics included now and in the future! The 2-ish pages in the Pathfinder Campaign book really amounted to "Psionics exist, go ahead and use them" which is nice. but that is pretty much how it has always been already. Rolling them up with a core class would leave me feeling more secure in the belief that psionics will be included in the future.
ANYWAYS way off topic lol.
How about we get rid of the Assassin PrC and roll the abilities into Rogue talents/advanced talents?
Poison Use (talent; Honestly who has access to, or money for, poison at those low levels? Also using poison in and of itself really isn't all that evil, depends on what the poison does you know?)
Death Attack (talent, 6th level minimum, Evil alignment DC = 10 + 1/2 characters total HD + etc. Spending 3 rounds to contemplate how to kill someone is evil.)
Hide in Plain Sight (Advanced talent, Maybe 14th or 16th level minimum? Rangers get it at 17th - if rogues want it earlier they can go through a PrC and cough up the requirements to get it).
Some of the other PrC's basically got dumped as they were viewed as titles that the core classes should have, is Assassin really any different?? Gut it from the book, save some page space and give us more goodies (preferably Psionic goodies ;)
The thing, is that spells are typically a great deal more effective than ki powers and will typically last longer.
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Just my thoughts on the comparison, due to the differing effectiveness of spells VS ki powers, there should be more ki points availiable, IMHO. Oh, and just one thought to throw out. They should have a "false gravity" effect as a ki power, letting them run on walls etc.
We're pretty much on the same wavelength here actually. Many people consider Assassin spells just about useless - I do not, and have seem them used effectively.
That said, they rarely "stack" on their combat effectiveness - mostly they are useful either out of combat, to escape combat, or to handle unusual situations. Ki Powers *can* be useful in combat - +4 AC is a very solid boost for a swift action.
As much as I want to see the assassin turned into a ninja (which is to say, not at all, in any way), I don't really think those monk abilities have very much to do with stealthily killing someone. And ki powers are....just...please no.
I have to concur with velderan. An assassin's job is to hunt down and kill a target. If its going to be a dual class blend it needs to be ranger / rogue, not monk / rogue. Monk's abilities and class really has nothing to do with hunting someone down to kill them.
I agree too. The idea of an assassin to me is actually quite far from a ninja. Assassins being trained in poison use and specific deadly weapons such as daggers, darts and such. This also leads to assassins being more aligned with Evil as they are silent killers for hire. Ninja to me are more trained like monks where they are more adept with a wide range of weaponry. Also while ninjas have historically been used for assassinations, they were more often scouts and spys. So maybe just a different prestige class would be more in line, especially with current media portraying ninjas with ki/chakra powered abilities and favoring hand to hand fighting. Rogue>Assassins, Monk>Ninjas
Poison Use (talent; Honestly who has access to, or money for, poison at those low levels?
That's why you take Craft (poisonmaking) and make your own.