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As a wannabe Philosopher and someone who's generally interested in science, I've often wanted to have characters in my games who at least express some similar interests. However, its difficult to do this, as I can't just draw upon the real world, given that the real world never had to deal with the implications of actual magic upon the sciences.
So, my question to you guys is this. What is the general state of science in Golarion, in all the various fields of study? Just a time period for comparison would be nice, though I'm guessing it's roughly around pre-Enlightenment times. Though I do have a few more specific questions.
Is the theory of Evolution around? Does Evolution even exist in Golarion?
Does anyone have any ideas about non-Euclidean geometry?
What about the Mind/Body problem? How is that dealt with?
Do people know about atoms?
I do of course appreciate that these issues are of little relevance for a fantasy RPG, but they are of some interest to me, especially as my PFS character is a bit of a scholar. So thanks in advance for any advice in this matter.
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Is the theory of Evolution around? Does Evolution even exist in Golarion?
Any world that has domesticated animals and / or agriculture is going to have at least a basic understanding of natural selection.
An established culture that has specific warhorse or hunting dog (or pet dog) breeding programs and 'pedigrees' and whatnot is going to have many individuals who have a very up-close understanding of such matters, even if they may never make the quantum leap to apply it to species in general, outside of the farm. Long before 'evolution' was considered as a notion, let alone a theory, there were elitist nobles who wouldn't mix their genes with 'lessers' and there were farmers going across town to have their heifers bred by Farmer Giles' prize bull, because they wanted some of that bull's traits in the calves they'd be raising.
Since Golarion doesn't have a church that runs around torturing people who believe in stuff like that until they recant, and then killing them to save their souls the second they do recant ('moral suasion'), it's likely that the concept is non-controversial there.
Indeed, with the prevalance of fantasy races (dragons, fiends, celestial, fey, possibly genies) that can crossbreed with all sorts of critters and pass on various draconic/demonic/etc. traits, the 'theory' might be even more pronounced, with stuffy Chelaxian scholars holding seminars on how they are improving the breed by introducing outsider elements into their own bloodlines, through their contacts with the fiends of the pit... (Much quieter Qadiran scholars might have similar thoughts about their own people's intimate encounters with genie-kind, and some inevitable glorious destiny that awaits them as a result, and perhaps the 'God-Kings' of Osirion also had some celestial cream in their coffee, so to speak.)
Some religions, such as that of Lamashtu, might even encourage cross-breeding, seeing hybrid creatures as 'sacred bastards,' combining the traits of both parent species. What others see as 'monsters,' her clergy revere as portents of a glorious future, when every single creature is a many-blooded species to itself, with a thousand mothers and a thousand fathers in a sort of topsy-turvy reversal of the 'black goat of the woods with a thousand young' concept.
As for other theories, it's hard to say, and some of them might not even apply fully. The sun of Golarion is a portal to the positive energy plane, and it's light is life-giving for that reason, in addition to any possible photosynthetic benefits. With magic to muddy the waters, theories like gravity and atomism and whatnot may or may not exist, and, if they do, might be accompanied by a hundred other dissenting theories that have yet to be proved or disproven.
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Well, there are a number of points I'd quibble on there. Firstly, our society had concepts of selective breeding for thousands of years, but the theory of evolution only came around 150 years ago. It was quite a dramatic leap, after all.
Secondly, the religious aspect could come into play, depending on the god. Latmashtu might have a creation myth whereby she gave birth to Golarion and the Universe(the Ultimate Monster) and all the creatures upon it.
Either way, thanks for responding. Some good thoughts in that post Set.
Any world that has domesticated animals and / or agriculture is going to have at least a basic understanding of natural selection.
That's not natural selection. It's unnatural selection.
It's not quote evolution, anyway, that theory says that the selection humans do has been done by nature from the beginning, but also that this leads to the emergence of different species.
Golarion's people know that you can breed hunting dogs and guard dogs and so on from dogs - or, rather, from wolves - but I don't think that anyone ever got the idea that cows wolves and cats and all that were one creature once, very long ago.
And it's quite possible that on Golarion, they never were.
Since Golarion doesn't have a church that runs around torturing people who believe in stuff like that until they recant, and then killing them to save their souls the second they do recant ('moral suasion'), it's likely that the concept is non-controversial there.
You're right, there's no dominant religion that tortures people for thinking, but there's a bunch of very powerful beings who walk around at night smashing atheists' windows.
All those debates of science versus religion work differently. Religion starts with how their favourite deity worked this wonder, performed that miracle, created a race from nothing, built the world out of dust, and so on. Then science replies with how they can prove all they claim, and asks religion to show them one of their "miracles".
And then the priest sighs, cuts his arm off, casts a spell and it grows right back.
Creative Director
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Here's my thoughts on the questions:
Is the theory of Evolution around? Does Evolution even exist in Golarion?
Yes indded this theory is in Pathfinder. And yes indeed it exists in Golarion. The prehistory of Golarion is relatively similar to Earth's, I suspect, except that during the age of dinosaurs and before and after there were intelligent beings. Humnans may or may not have evolved, or they may have been created by the gods or the aboleths or something like that. We're kinda remaining vague on the exact details so that we can have multiple possibilities.
Does anyone have any ideas about non-Euclidean geometry?
I assume yes. At the very least, there are Lovecraftian locations in our world that use non-Euclidiean geometry, so it does exist.
What about the Mind/Body problem? How is that dealt with?
The faith of Irori is pretty advanced in this count; they have LOTS of philosophy about the mind vs. body. Most folk on Golarion probably confuse the mind with the soul. The evil outsiders don't. The demons want to destroy your body, the daemons your soul, and the devils your mind.
Do people know about atoms?
Probably not. But that doesn't mean that there can't be some forward thinking scholars who theorize about them anyway.
In the end, any relatively modern philosophy or science is quite likely to exist in Golarion, although cast in a light of pseudo science. Advanced chemistry looks more like alchemy, for example, while advanced genetics is where we get things like owlbears. It's important to remember that while there are parts of Golarion that are medieval inspired, more of it is inspired from the ancient world like Rome, Summeria, Atlantis, and so on; it's not supposed to be a representation of a single specific time in Earth's history, but it should touch on a LOT of those times. Therefore, a wide range of philosophy and science is absolutely allowable in the world.
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Do people know about atoms?Probably not. But that doesn't mean that there can't be some forward thinking scholars who theorize about them anyway.
For what it's worth, there was a major philosophy in Rome called Epicureanism (see De Rerum Natura by Lucretius from the first century BC) that theorized the existence of atoms and the entire universe as their random, purposeless interactions. Pretty similar to our modern understanding. I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone in Golarion had at least theorized it.
My plan is to either have Golarion at the 18th Century technology level, or have it a part of an interstellar civilization, depending on which way I go with using the Children of the Void adventure. I'mnot sure if that was the intended tech level or not, but I'll probably be stealing a lot from the Iron Kingdoms setting, including the idea for a binary blasting powder.
As for the Theory of Evolution, I've been working on the premise that dinosaurs and humans evolved on the Earth, but that samples were taken to other worlds for genetic experiments. This means that the theory of evolution as Darwin explained it would not necessarily be true on other worlds, and that the fossil evidence would not support the same conclusions they support on Earth.
As a wannabe Philosopher and someone who's generally interested in science, I've often wanted to have characters in my games who at least express some similar interests. However, its difficult to do this, as I can't just draw upon the real world, given that the real world never had to deal with the implications of actual magic upon the sciences.
So, my question to you guys is this. What is the general state of science in Golarion, in all the various fields of study? Just a time period for comparison would be nice, though I'm guessing it's roughly around pre-Enlightenment times. Though I do have a few more specific questions.
Is the theory of Evolution around? Does Evolution even exist in Golarion?
Does anyone have any ideas about non-Euclidean geometry?
What about the Mind/Body problem? How is that dealt with?
Do people know about atoms?I do of course appreciate that these issues are of little relevance for a fantasy RPG, but they are of some interest to me, especially as my PFS character is a bit of a scholar. So thanks in advance for any advice in this matter.
I will defer to KaeYoss's comments on un-natural selection and James Jacobs general comments on evolution.
If the world is spherical, non-Euclidean geometry comes forward very quickly as parallel lines most definitely converge on a sphere. Although, Euclidean geometry is often a good local approximation.
Now, if what was asked dealt with geometry where there are differences other than the absence of Euclid's 5th (parallel line) postulate, that could be very interesting.
On a similar discussion, I was more concerned about the visibility of some of the planets from Golarion. Looking at the article in Children of the Void. I would guess that Castrovel, Akiton, Verces, Liavara and Bretheda were definitely visible. Aballon may or may not be known depending upon its actual position. How are the others known?
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An interesting question would be whether Newton's Laws are known, as upon them is built dynamics (starting with Galileo and formalised and extended by Newton). From the point of view of astronomy, what about Kepler's Laws (and, possibly, Newton's Gravitational Law)? Where is the instrumentalist/realist debate standing in astronomy?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4
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As the guy who proposed (and subsequently was asked to write!) the Technology section (pg. 236-237) of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, I think that these are VERY good questions!
My long-winded response:
James makes very astute points above; the PCCS includes write-ups for 40-odd nations and also has brief overviews regarding an additional 6 continents/sub-continents, 11 planets & 18 planes of existence - and these are covered over the course of around 10,000 years of recorded history, with nothing but a big gap preceding the coming of the Starstone.
The majority of these places have no real-world analogue - while Taldor might seem a bit like 18th Century France (open to argument, obviously) or Katapesh might seem a bit like 15th Century Bagdad, what are we to make of Nidal? Is it 1930's Germany, or is it Hyborian-Age Stygia, or perhaps even Moldavia under the rule of Vigo the Carpathian? All of those references might contain some element of the true nature of Nidal, but are incomplete metaphors - just as the 18th Century France analogy is incomplete when discussing Taldor. The countries of Pathfinder are unique, each with a unique place in the wider fantasy genre.
My assumption, as a player and contributor to Pathfinder, is that just about every real-world ancient, modern or postmodern theory, ideology or practice has SOME place within Golarion: the world includes Galt, Numeria & Rahadoum, to name just 3 of the wildly original and genre-expanding portions of Pathfinder's core nations.
If you want to play a PC with access to modern (or even futuristic/superhuman!) real-world philosophies or scientific learning, a quick and dirty explanation is that you were tutored by someone with access to old Shory records or Alkenstar tech.
Of course, you'll seem crazy to the average Varisian dirt-farmer.
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Fantastic Thread. I love the thought experiments of trying to marry modern physics and science to realm of magic and fantasy. While the prncipals of Newton's science may not be widely known or understood, they should certainly work in world with gravity, friction etc. As such I like the rules to refelct this.
Another question I'd like to see answered is the nature of magic.
IS it a new form of energy, one non existant in the Earths Solar system?
Is it in fact a form of nuclear manipulation, where one taps into the power of atomic restructuring to create an effect from surrounding particles that are themselves different to the original particles ( a kind of alchemy/chemistry on the fly without all the glassware). I like this one for wizardry, it merely breaks down the concept of spells being just things anyone could do if only they could understand the theory (kind of a nuclear physics of the fantasy realm)
In futuristic settings I've read about magic being emulated through use of nanotech or symbiotes (midichlorians for eg...damn that concpet for ruining a great story). Is the magic of Golarian like this, a symbiotic relationship allowing the manipulation of raw energy without the use of mechanical implements. Kind of works for sorcerors.
If you understand this stuff you may be able to better map how real world theories tie together with the fantasy.
On some of the genetics stuff, the entire half breed thing always makes me cringe in terms of true genetics. Cross species reproduction rarely if ever works to produce viable offspring that can themselves reproduce. Too many variations in genetic material and structural differences in reproductive organs/cells/stimulants to make this happen. The idea of a half dragon/half human is ludicrous by genetic standards of our world, so something else must be at work here.
Perhaps a series of species that are "universalist" in their reproductive strategies and genetic make up. That is they have an undifferntiated code that only asserts specific changes when introduced to other creatures DNA (think Aliens here).
Possibly they're viral in nature, inserting relevent code strands into the hosts DNA and mutating the offsrpig that way. If either of these are true, are the offspring then able to reproduce? Do they throw back to the origianl parents or breed true for the crossbreed form? I guess the other question that begs to be asked is "Why do they bother?" Is there a driving need for survival of the species to force half breed programs on other species?
These are some questions I'd like to discuss or have answered. Hopefully this is all enough on topic not to be a threadjack
Cheers
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Huh, I saw Taldane as Decameron-era Italy, myself. France never even occured to me...
Another question I'd like to see answered is the nature of magic.
I like it left open for rival theories as well;
1) Leftover tools of creation. The 'tools that make the tools' so to speak. Even the echoes of the words once said have power, even if no mortal race would ever be able to use them to their full potential, to create (or destroy) worlds. The gods are said by some to have been the original speakers of the words, and the Wish and Miracle spells to be the purest forms of these ancient 'tools.' Others suggest quietly that the gods, too, were formed by these ancient words of power, and that the truth of creation is known only to geniekind, who guard this secret jealously.
2) The interactions of the planes is not a frictionless thing, and a spellcaster is one who can reach into the raw, red boundary where elemental fire rubs up against the material plane and bleed off some of the energy building up, using it to produce magical flame, and, it is theorized, staving off the disasters that occur if such energy is allowed to build up too long (resulting in volcanoes and heat waves and lightning storms, it is thought).
3) The plane of shadow is but one twisted reflection of our own world, with many others also existing, each distorted in it's own way, with some differences too subtle to see, and others so gross as to be all-but unrecognizable. The will-worker works his arcane calculus to add or subtract things from our own reality, transposing them with events or individuals from these distorted mirror worlds, worlds which may or may not even exist, prior to the casting of the spell, and may or may not continue to exist, when the duration is done. (A magical hand-waving nonsense version of quantum / 'mirror-universe' / brane theory.)
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Another question I'd like to see answered is the nature of magic.IS it a new form of energy, one non existant in the Earths Solar system?
Is it in fact a form of nuclear manipulation, where one taps into the power of atomic restructuring to create an effect from surrounding particles that are themselves different to the original particles ( a kind of alchemy/chemistry on the fly without all the glassware). I like this one for wizardry, it merely breaks down the concept of spells being just things anyone could do if only they could understand the theory (kind of a nuclear physics of the fantasy realm)
In futuristic settings I've read about magic being emulated through use of nanotech or symbiotes (midichlorians for eg...damn that concpet for ruining a great story). Is the magic of Golarian like this, a symbiotic relationship allowing the manipulation of raw energy without the use of mechanical implements. Kind of works for sorcerors.
For my campaigns, magic is the manipulation of objects and creatures on an atomic and sub-atomic level utilizing an energy known as the elan vital. Gods have ample access to this ability but other races have difficulty tapping it. Some creatures have special "runic organelles" that allow them to inherently sense and exert their will on that energy, thus we have magic.
Now, the characters have never figured this out and neither have the players. For me, it just runs in the background because I enjoy "fiddly bits" like that.
The elan vital is a turn of the century term that I absconded with for use in my campaigns. In my case, elan vital is a sort of blend of energies from all of the Inner Planes.
Of course, I also utilize the idea of Aether as the Greeks understood it, as the Upper Sky.
On that note, I assume my fantasy worlds operate in a manner similar to how many Greeks philosophers understood reality. Atoms exist, Platonic Forms are real, and the four elements really do make up all of reality.
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All of these things said, some thoughts
In a world where an obviously non-Homo elf and a human can mate, or a non-Homo orc and a human can mate; in a world where the creation of an Owlbear probably involves mood lighting and a bottle of Cristal; in a world where sorcerers can have Undead bloodlines - evolution will NOT work the same as it does on Earth. It's gonna be different from first principles if you can't hammer down a biological species concept, and if Lamarckian ideas of inheritance of developed traits hold true.
However, in a world of elf-gates, astronomy is probably far in advance of the earth equivalent era. No geocentrism for Elves and cultures with access to long-distance teleportation. Parallax combined with multi-planetary triangulation allows for some very precise star maps. Teleportation gives some fun insights into speed of sound and speed of light (flash a light on Castrovel, teleport to Golarion, wait for your light. Ping!); instantaneous travel actually gives you a chance for early insight into quantum level phenomena.
The Vaults of Orv are gonna screw with geosciences and oceanography something fierce. They also get to screw with a lot of evolution-related research topics by providing ways for populations to disperse and isolate in inobvious ways.
Don't even get me started on God-given healing's influence on medicine. Suffice to say, you've probably only got decent anatomists in an Urgathoan temple and pray you don't see the evolution of magic-resistant disease vectors.
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For what it's worth, there was a major philosophy in Rome called Epicureanism (see De Rerum Natura by Lucretius from the first century BC) that theorized the existence of atoms and the entire universe as their random, purposeless interactions.
The Greek Leucippus had an atomic theory in the first half of the fifth century BC. He and his student Democritus are also the first to formulate the concept of a true void.
My theory on magic:
Magic is Divine energy. All of it. Or it least it used to be (the trouble with loaning out you power is you might not get all of it back.) Only Divine beings can create matter/energy from nothing or so blatantly bend the laws of reality.
When a deity is powerful or a mortal's Faith is great (or some combination of the two), the deity's power can be tapped by the mortal. This is how Divine magic works. Godless clerics tap powerful but ill-defined proto-divine sources like Alignments and Elements. Godless druids tap myriad miniscule nature spirits, or one great Nature being too large to be personified in the same manner as a deity. The weaker the source, the more specific and more emphatic the faith needed to tap it.
Outsiders with magic ability simply use whatever divine power source created them. Similarly for mortal races with innate magic power: their race was imbued with it at some point.
So how does Arcane magic work? The universe is an OLD place. There are lots of mostly dead/forgotten deities and demigods floating around, not to mention magical creatures and artifacts of universe-shattering power. Sure, a truly Faithful individual might be able to become a cleric of a dead god, but wizards aren't interested. Instead, a Wizard learns the exactly correct states of mind required to invoke little shards of power from dead gods and lost artifacts, including prayers in long-forgotten languages. Since their sources are weak, and they have little or no faith, instead they must exactly match the words and motions. While a Cleric's power comes from faith, a Wizard's power comes from their ability to successfully invoke and then combine power from a number of sources. (This is also why wizards have a general tendency to hoard knowledge and artifacts, and their numerous little superstitions.)
That is the difference between a Expert with maximum ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge(Arcana) and a Wizard: The Expert has never mastered the ability to actually invoke the power sources he may still be able to list at length.
Sorcerors are creatures fortunate enough to be born with an innate sense for magical power. By some fluke of bloodline or birth (being born near a convergence of leylines is an alternative), or a pact with a magical being, they can draw magical power effortlessly, and weave it by instinct. Bards are something in between the two.
This is also why divine and arcane writings are different: Arcane writings are concerned with the peculiar interaction of magical forces and elaborate formulas, while divine writings are more like prayers. Once in a non-scroll item, however, the 'essence' of magic is the same stuff: It is impossible to tell if a Wand of Cure Light was made by a Bard or a Cleric. Well, unless they signed it or something.
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Creative Director
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The Vaults of Orv are gonna screw with geosciences and oceanography something fierce.
Possibly... but maybe not as much as one might think. We kept Darkland tunnels away from volcanic regions, for example, and the'res actually a reason (even if that reason IS just magic) that the deepest parts of the Darklands can exist the way they do.
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and there's actually a reason (even if that reason IS just magic) that the deepest parts of the Darklands can exist the way they do.
Sure, but that reason being magic screws with proper understanding of what's 'normal' - the (relatively) easily accessible Vaults will be considered the norm, and people will hypothesize all kinds of crazy stuff for why the rare natural cavern gets hotter and the rocks start acting goofy as you go deeper instead of stabilizing at "Vault-norm".
Which is awesome and all, but does provide a mental challenge for the method actor role-players out there. :)
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Is Golarion going to be a hollow world with the drow tunnels leading down to a bowl shaped "hidden world"?
Golarion is a perfectly normal iron-core silica-crust planet that just happened to have a post-Singularity race of ultra-powerful magic users construct an elaborate system of terrariums miles below the surface, powered by magic so powerful that the bleed-off alone allowed a secondary system of "impossible" caverns to develop above that. Nar-Voth is only implausible, but the magic radiation from Orv and Sekamina made that particular implausibility happen.
The Drow are in for a rude awakening when the Vault Builders' magitech finally craps out.
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Some great stuff coming out of this thread.
Cappodicus, I loved the concept of a virus developing into a magic resistant strain thanks to an overuse of healing magics. This has Pandemic written all over it. Maybe it pops up in a nation heavily at war so the virus mutates and evolves rapidly under the increased selective pressure ...hmmmm, nice.
Set, I also loved the concpet of the planes being a non frictionless juncture. It really explains the availablility of so much power/energy being available quite nicely and sticks to theme of fantasy realm beautifully. A kind of tectonic plate theory for the planes. Very nice.
Another aspect of magic/knowledge that comes to mind is the concepts of teleportation. Obviously someone understands a little bit of Quantum mechanics out there for this process to be available. I've always thought of the process as a dismantle- reassemble concept. The energy or souls of the players travels to the new location at light speed (or faster) and the "magic" forces them to be reassembled from the atoms availalble at the new location. Their old atoms remain behind where they teleported so there's no net loss or gain of atoms from the planet.
Gate or plane shift have to be different obviously, these are kind of wormhole tech that phases into other planes of existance.
The Wall of iron spell and other spells that allow you to generate material also need exploring I feel. Where does this new material come from? Is it borrowed from other planes? Does it get the reconstructed atomic theory? If so what happens to the residual energies of forcing atoms together to create Iron or stone from non iron/stone sources? My preference is the borrowed from somewhere concept. I like the idea of wizards and spell casters stealing iron to build their walls of iron, and sometime in the future an angry mining consortium comes knocking on their door asking all sorts of "pointeed" questions.
I think i've gone past the point of expecting Devs to answer these questiosn now. As Set suggested, it's probably better to leave the questions I have on magic to specualtion. I'm really enjoying the conversation though.
Cheers
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The Wall of iron spell and other spells that allow you to generate material also need exploring I feel. Where does this new material come from? Is it borrowed from other planes? Does it get the reconstructed atomic theory? If so what happens to the residual energies of forcing atoms together to create Iron or stone from non iron/stone sources? My preference is the borrowed from somewhere concept. I like the idea of wizards and spell casters stealing iron to build their walls of iron, and sometime in the future an angry mining consortium comes knocking on their door asking all sorts of "pointeed" questions.
I've always gone for the "re-arranging of atoms" track.
In my case, the residual energies get dispersed back into the elan vital. Since it constantly derives from the Inner Planes and back again, the energy has a place to go. In essence, it just goes back into the "flow". But, I like the idea of spells having a benign side effect from magic use, as that excessive energy disperses.
As for teleport and other spells that move you across vast distances at a near instant speed? I always assumed they work like the old Star Trek stand-by. Which confirms that there has to be some vague idea about quantum physics. Though I must admit, I never gave it a great deal of thought.
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The Wall of iron spell and other spells that allow you to generate material also need exploring I feel.
There's only one Wall of Iron in existence. If you were to study the castings of this spell, you would find that at no time in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE is more than one Wall of Iron spell active at any one time. Fashioned eons ago by the Vault Builders, The Wall is just shuffled around the universe over and over again.
That's one good wall.
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The Wall of iron spell and other spells that allow you to generate material also need exploring I feel.There's only one Wall of Iron in existence. If you were to study the castings of this spell, you would find that at no time in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE is more than one Wall of Iron spell active at any one time. Fashioned eons ago by the Vault Builders, The Wall is just shuffled around the universe over and over again.
That's one good wall.
Oddly enough I can see a campaign built around this.
What happens when a Wall of Iron is made permanent?
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Another aspect of magic/knowledge that comes to mind is the concepts of teleportation. Obviously someone understands a little bit of Quantum mechanics out there for this process to be available. I've always thought of the process as a dismantle- reassemble concept. The energy or souls of the players travels to the new location at light speed (or faster) and the "magic" forces them to be reassembled from the atoms availalble at the new location. Their old atoms remain behind where they teleported so there's no net loss or gain of atoms from the planet.
The problem with this concept is that it was designed by people who didn't really have much thought for the existence of a soul, which could exist independently of the body. The 'transporter' rips the body into tiny little pieces, and shoots them way the heck over there, and then stacks them back up in the same order it found them.
But, in a world where the body and the spirit are seperate things, and one can survive independently of the other in another plane, this 'teleportation' effect, whether arcane or mechanical, would create only a soulless simulacrum at it's destination, as the effect makes no provision for the preservation, transportation and re-attachment of the spirit to this re-assembled flesh. {Or, more shuddersomely, the new formed body might have *a* spirit within it, but who knows what sort of malevolent entity took up residence in this fresh new body before the owners soul caught up...)
Which means that it seems more likely that teleportation magics shove the recipient outside of material space (perhaps into astral or ethereal space, or some heretofore unspecified intermediary realm), push him along very fast, and then cause him to 'resurface' in the material plane at the destination. Planar travel might not even be involved, if the magic opens some sort of spatial rift or 'wormhole,' but planar travel is easier to deal with thematically, since so much of magical working already seems to tap into extraplanar forces anyway.
In previous editions, with the whole 'appear inside a solid object and die gruesomely' option, particle transportation a la Star Trek seemed to be the assumption. But by 3e, where appearing inside of a solid object (via phase door, passwall, teleport, etc. gone awry) just does some damage and shoves you out into the nearest open area, the planar gateway / wormhole theory seems to be prevalent. (Using Dimensional Anchor to block teleportation, and not just dimensional travel, also provides precedent here!)
Alternate theories would, of course, exist.
A worshipper of Irori from the Impossible Kingdom might believe that the entire universe is an illusion, only shaped by our perceptions, and see a teleportation magic as an *enchantment* that convinces the recipient that he is in a new location, which, ergo sum, makes it so.
A devotee of Groetus or the Old Cults might think that the universe is but a scrum of debris orbiting a great void that is about to consume it, and that teleportation magic just causes one to freeze in place for a timeless instant, while the universe swirls around chaotically in it's death-spiral, until the place you want to be has swirled beneath you and you plunge back into the dying world, in this new location. They might regard that single moment of darkness between here and there as a brush with godhead, the ultimate nihility at the center of all things, and sometimes emerge babbling in tongues, reporting strange insights or communications from their masters, whom they claim dwell in those dark nowhere places, waiting for the end of all things.
Desna's church might teach that the stars are like twinkling diamonds, and that one with eyes to see would be able to see the delicate chains that link them together, chains that can be walked by the adventurous souls who know no fear of the unknown.
A 'philosopher' of Cayden Cailean would just shrug, saying that he often wakes up in a different place than where he last remembered being. How is teleportation any different?
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In previous editions, with the whole 'appear inside a solid object and die gruesomely' option, particle transportation a la Star Trek seemed to be the assumption. But by 3e, where appearing inside of a solid object (via phase door, passwall, teleport, etc. gone awry) just does some damage and shoves you out into the nearest open area, the planar gateway / wormhole theory seems to be prevalent. (Using Dimensional Anchor to block teleportation, and not just dimensional travel, also provides precedent here!).
That is an interesting point. That would make teleportation a bit more like Stargate than Star Trek. I like that. It would fit thematically with spells like Gate as well. They all open wormholes, but how they are opened, their size, and their duration are all determined by the power of the spell.
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Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
What happens when a Wall of Iron is made permanent?
Nice.
This board is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
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ok i NEED toread this thread completely
with a few of my characters I give them a theory about undeads is that as they are full of negative energy, as if it was sort of electricity, you could cause a shortcircuit if applying positive energy in specific ways... just like poisoning living creatures...
once we had a prestigue class that added "turn damage" to arrows... (or bullets in modern setting) as the best option to add this positive energy
Alkenstar seems to be the place to dump, without comment, all the Engineering sciences in Golarion.I'm pretty sure there is steam technology somewhere on Golarion to some extent...
...now if I can just sneak it past James Jacobs' editing.
I'd imagine you could attempt to shoehorn in an aeolipile in a college, academy or a place with too many bored nobles with too much money, as it was little more than a novelty in our own history.
Fantastic thread! Awesome! I wish I could do a little more than bask in the reflected glory.... Keep it up!
Peace,
tfad
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The Wall of iron spell and other spells that allow you to generate material also need exploring I feel.There's only one Wall of Iron in existence. If you were to study the castings of this spell, you would find that at no time in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE is more than one Wall of Iron spell active at any one time. Fashioned eons ago by the Vault Builders, The Wall is just shuffled around the universe over and over again.
That's one good wall.
As I think on this, I could see magic-users summoning an aspect or part of the Universal/Platontic Form of an iron wall to cast the spell.
Perhaps all magic taps into the Universal Forms to create "something out of nothing". In fact, the matter derives from this higher plane and goes there when it is done.
Classical-Medieval eras - please God yes.
Pulp science fantasy goodness sprinkled about - Rock on.
These things equate to swords-n-sorcery goodness.
Victorian-era influences & steamtech - Please, no. Not another Iron Kingdoms.
Once you reach steam & industrial age tech, it starts to define the setting. I like my Iron Kingdoms - but in the Iron Kingdoms.
Once everyone focuses on the exceptions and one-offs, like steamtech & "the only one of its kind in existence" tech, RPGs have a tendency for those things to become the norm b/c once a player sees one/encounters one/owns one - Pandora's Box stays open.
Save that stuff for planar travel or other worlds, where the exceptional tech resides in the exceptional/unusual locale. Golarion proper is cool enough without it.
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That's one good wall.
As I think on this, I could see magic-users summoning an aspect or part of the Universal/Platontic Form of an iron wall to cast the spell.
Without my half-facetious invoking of the Vault Builders, this is the best, most "medieval" way of doing it. I've invoked an ideal/universal/platonic pure form plane obliquely in my development of Rovagug for non-horrible monsters that's popped up here and there on the boards, and it has a certain elegance to it that makes more sense in a world of magic and hands-on deities than in our world.
For that matter, Golarion is known to have a repository of platonic ideals. Abadar's vault is FULL of them.
For that matter, Golarion is known to have a repository of platonic ideals. Abadar's vault is FULL of them.
Not quite full. I escaped.
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For that matter, Golarion is known to have a repository of platonic ideals. Abadar's vault is FULL of them.Now there's a high level adventure for you. Steal The Wall of Iron from Abadar's Vault. :D
Some sort of Dr. Evil sort could try to steal the platonic *Chair* from the vault, and threaten to destroy it, and therefore render the world chair-less, if he isn't given... [pinkie to side of mouth]
One Million Gold Pieces!
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Some sort of Dr. Evil sort could try to steal the platonic *Chair* from the vault, and threaten to destroy it, and therefore render the world chair-less, if he isn't given... [pinkie to side of mouth]One Million Gold Pieces!
Give him a dire shark with wands of Scorching Ray on its head, and you're golden.
Is Golarion going to be a hollow world with the drow tunnels leading down to a bowl shaped "hidden world"?Golarion is a perfectly normal iron-core silica-crust planet that just happened to have a post-Singularity race of ultra-powerful magic users construct an elaborate system of terrariums miles below the surface, powered by magic so powerful that the bleed-off alone allowed a secondary system of "impossible" caverns to develop above that. Nar-Voth is only implausible, but the magic radiation from Orv and Sekamina made that particular implausibility happen.
The Drow are in for a rude awakening when the Vault Builders' magitech finally craps out.
I like that idea. It's different from the standard "hollow world".
I need another idea. I mentioned above that I intended to run Golarion at an 18th Century level technology (early to mid 18th Century). At this stage, steam power is known, but was not yet practical for many applications because they haven't figured out the trick of using separate boiler and condensers.
(My PCs from Space could make a financial killing if they decide to divulge this information.)
But I would like to do something other than the steamtech punk worlds that have been springing up all over the place. I'd like an alternative to coal and steam as the basis for a budding technological revolution.
Ideas?
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But I would like to do something other than the steamtech punk worlds that have been springing up all over the place. I'd like an alternative to coal and steam as the basis for a budding technological revolution.
Ideas?
Diabolical engines that burn souls? Evil clerics tossing their negative energy bursts into infernal contraptions to make them run?
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Diabolical engines that burn souls? Evil clerics tossing their negative energy bursts into infernal contraptions to make them run?
Good Clerics would probably be more likely to get interesting uses out of channeled positive energy. Imagine some sort of 'life-energy converter' that causes the massive rush of life-energy to be dispersed over an eight hour period, and then set in the middle of a greenhouse. With the proper conversion system, an cluster of fruit trees could be artificially made to produce another growing season of food every eight hours!
Systems powered off of chemical reactions from acids (like batteries) would benefit from at will Acid Splash, which creates permanant low-strength acid. Those powered by light would benefit from Continual Flame, and systems requiring kinetic energy could be run indefinitely from a single Decanter of Endless Water (running a water-powered mill, even in the middle of the desert!).
Spells to create permanant sources of heat, cold, etc. would likely be invented in short order. (And, until they are, some schlub could be stuck whacking at something with a Flaming or Frost or Shocking club every round until his arm gets too tired, and then schlub number two moves in for the hand-off, providing 1d6 worth of the appropriate energy type every round...)