Craft - Forgery

[Epic Meepo]

Forgery should be a Craft skill, not part of Linguistics. Here are my reasons:

1) Craft skills create items from raw materials; a forged document is an item that must be created from raw materials. "I can't fake a Chelaxian passport with any old ink. I'm going to need special supplies to produce a similar enough pigment."
2) Not all forgeries are text; some are symbols or images, to which Craft applies better than Linguistics. "As you can see here, all of the vases from that period are marked with this particular diamond pattern. If we add that pattern to our vases, we might be able to pass them off as antiques."
3) Forged documents should have creation DCs, creation times, and market prices; Craft skills already have detailed rules for creation DCs, creation times, and market prices. "Hmm. Faking a historical document that well known might require a few days. And quite a bit of gold!"

Also, the ability to spot a forgery should be a function of Appraise. Here's why:

1) Appraise identifies physical objects; a forged document is a physical object. "This passport isn't authentic. Chelaxian passports use a rare ink that's much purer and more valuable than the one used to make this."
2) Not all forgeries are text; some are symbols and images, to which Appraise applies better than Linguistics. "This vase is a modern imitation, not an antique. You can tell by the way these distinctive diamond patterns are clearly made with modern tools."
3) Forged documents should have market prices; the Appraise skill has rules for identifying market prices. "We've been had! This is just a cheap fake, barely worth hundred gold, let alone a thousand!"

[Montalve]

i like it
i agree
an scholar who knows 5 language while trying to descypher an script should be able to do it
but not to forge it

sight... i would say that a forgerist should get a bonus for having the original skill from the original product comes... but there is no symbiosis anymore :S

[Tamec]

Yeah it seems to fit as you are creating an item....although this leads into the many crafting threads (on crafting consolidation)

[Montalve]

Tamec wrote:

Yeah it seems to fit as you are creating an item....although this leads into the many crafting threads (on crafting consolidation)

agree

[Mosaic]

Agree as well. I'm learning to accept that Linguistics means you can learn a new language quicker than you can learn to swim, but making you an able forger on top of that just doesn't make sense. Being a forger is about being and artist and a craftsperson, not about being a linguist.

[Kojan Silveraxe]

Linguists are OK but there are magic items that cane give the same advantages.

[Kaisoku]

Isn't making a forgery a game playing decision, and not a skill? What I mean is... don't you need "craft (pottery)" to forge a priceless vase?

If you had just a Craft (Forgery) skill, would you be able to basically recreate everything under the sun with it? To put it in gamist terms... what would stop someone from just making whatever he wanted by use of this one skill.

If you really get down to it... the act of making a Forgery is to try and make something seem as close as possible to the original. If you want a skill to reflect the ability to see minute differences in things and know the specifics that make something unique... well, as the examples above show, Appraise is the skill for that.

.

Let's just make "making a forgery" a secondary feature to the Appraise check. Then you have to go get the craft skills to accomplish the appropriate crafting. And if you don't happen to know Craft (pottery) to make that vase, well.. guess you can't forge the vase can you? Makes sense to me. Just because you can tell the differences between an antique vase (types of clay used in that era, stuff used in the ink for coloring, etc), doesn't mean you know how to fire up one yourself on a turntable.

Get some spell aid (magic item with a skill bonus) or hire someone to make one under your direction. He rolls the Craft check to match the quality (and how quickly it's made, unless you use the Fabricate spell), and you roll the Appraise check others would have to oppose to spot the forgery. The opposing check could be either Knowledge History for artifacts (ancient valuable vase), Perception to see a fault in a well known or common item (guard's tunic and badge), or simply another Appraise check if the person has it.

[Montalve]

Kaisoku wrote:

Isn't making a forgery a game playing decision, and not a skill? What I mean is... don't you need "craft (pottery)" to forge a priceless vase?

If you had just a Craft (Forgery) skill, would you be able to basically recreate everything under the sun with it? To put it in gamist terms... what would stop someone from just making whatever he wanted by use of this one skill.

If you really get down to it... the act of making a Forgery is to try and make something seem as close as possible to the original. If you want a skill to reflect the ability to see minute differences in things and know the specifics that make something unique... well, as the examples above show, Appraise is the skill for that.

.

Let's just make "making a forgery" a secondary feature to the Appraise check. Then you have to go get the craft skills to accomplish the appropriate crafting. And if you don't happen to know Craft (pottery) to make that vase, well.. guess you can't forge the vase can you? Makes sense to me. Just because you can tell the differences between an antique vase (types of clay used in that era, stuff used in the ink for coloring, etc), doesn't mean you know how to fire up one yourself on a turntable.

Get some spell aid (magic item with a skill bonus) or hire someone to make one under your direction. He rolls the Craft check to match the quality (and how quickly it's made, unless you use the Fabricate spell), and you roll the Appraise check others would have to oppose to spot the forgery. The opposing check could be either Knowledge History for artifacts (ancient valuable vase), Perception to see a fault in a well known or common item (guard's tunic and badge), or simply another Appraise check if the person has it.

had been thinking about it

i was craking under the fact that for legal documents you would need linguistics while for pottery you will need craft

but getting it as a secundary option in appraise sounds like an interesting option
you will need 2 rolls...
one to create the object, theother to make it realistic enough

otherwise we can just put a side bar about forging using different crafts or skill that could be used to forge something, the forgery just would add to the DC for Item Creation

yes it would be as hard to make a forged pottery than a MW pottery... yet you don't spend as much money and will finish earlier

what do you think?

[Epic Meepo]

Kaisoku wrote:

If you had just a Craft (Forgery) skill, would you be able to basically recreate everything under the sun with it? To put it in gamist terms... what would stop someone from just making whatever he wanted by use of this one skill.

I was imagining Craft (forgery) as the skill you use to add authenticating marks/symbols/etc. to an existing item: fake stamps on an existing document (created without a Craft skill since you don't need a Craft skill to write words on paper), a fake signature on an existing painting (created with Craft [painting]), a fake crafter's mark on a piece of pottery (created with Craft [pottery]).

So a forged item is like a masterwork weapon. You create a forged item by adding the "forged" property to the base item, the same way you create a masterwork weapon by adding the "masterwork" property to a base weapon. Only, in the case of forgery, the "forged" component requires a Craft (forgery) instead of another check using the same skill used to create the item.

EDIT: All of that being said, I wouldn't mind seeing a close variation of Kaisoku's suggestion: You could just make forgery a secondary function of any Craft skill. Add X to the craft DC and Y to the market price, and you can create an imitation of an existing item instead of an original item. Using Craft (painting), for example, you could forge a painting, or using Craft (scribe), you could forge a document.

[toyrobots]

I have long felt the same way about Disguise.

[Montalve]

Epic Meepo wrote:

EDIT: All of that being said, I wouldn't mind seeing a close variation of Kaisoku's suggestion: You could just make forgery a secondary function of any Craft skill. Add X to the craft DC and Y to the market price, and you can create an imitation of an existing item instead of an original item. Using Craft (painting), for example, you could forge a painting, or using Craft (scribe), you could forge a document.

i agree this would be interesting

but i will expand it a bit

documents would fall better under the hands of profession (scribe), while paintings and sculptures have their own performances

people in this areas have enough experience that if they want to forge something they can try.

also i liked your idea of an independient craft, but in a few case is the artisan who crafts the item the ones who makesthe forgery, either by imitating a pottery, copying a painting, or forging a sword that looks as someone elses.

[Montalve]

toyrobots wrote:

I have long felt the same way about Disguise.

this one i see it too specialiced

you not only try to look different but sometimes as someone specifically

if you did this... over what skill you would add it?

you can't forge a person

[Asgetrion]

I'm thinking of changing some Craft skills to work as Feats (e.g. 'Craft Mechanical Traps'), but I'll probably start a new thread for Craft Feats for that purpose.

[Kirth Gersen]

I've rolled Foregry into Craft (fine arts), which in my game includes painting, sculpture, drafting, etc. Just trying to make each skill a viable purchase. Disguise has been rolled into Perform (acting).

[Kirth Gersen]

subversive wrote:

Take for a counter-argument the fact that for a forgery to be successful, it needs to use the right language. I don't mean language in the sense of elven, common, sylvan, etc. I mean that it has to use the right terminology and phrasing.

In that case, I'd require a Linguistics check to get the phrasing right, then a Craft (fine arts) check to make the document look authentic. To make a fake ID, given an existing license to work from, requires far more artistic (graphic arts) than linguistics skill. And forging a painting or piece of jewelry requires NO linguistics skill; only Craft skill.