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Hey all,
So the SRD had a Jump modifier of -6 for every 10 feet of movement less than 20. That is gone from Pathfinder, and gladly so, because I’ve seen too many dwarves not even able to jump 3 feet. However, with the removal of this penalty, it means a monkey, which is a tiny animal, with it’s +8 racial bonus in Balance translating to a +8 racial bonus in Acrobatics, would have a +11, and could easily jump 21 feet, or 10 times it’s height. Even if you tone down the racial bonus, or even eliminate it, it still has a +3 to Jump, and can jump on average 13 feet (or 6 times its height). If we measure it up to scale, that would be like a human rolling an Acrobatics check of 60, or 36 at worst, to get the same size to distance ratio.
I would suggest that rather than going back to speed to determine jumping rate penalties, that size affects the jump, bonus speed affects the jump, and leave it at that. But please, take small and large creatures into consideration for a modifier.
Director of Games
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Unlike Fly, this is a bit more tricky. I actually think that the problem here is that the monkey's bonus is too high, allowing it to jump really far (although not that far, if you have ever seen a small monkey jump around in trees, but I digress). All things considered, I am thinking that Acrobatics might need a modifier based on size as well, as it seems silly to me that a giant can tumble around as easily as a monkey.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I like Monkeys!
Seems like most of the Dex based skills would require some sort of size modifiers.
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Unlike Fly, this is a bit more tricky. I actually think that the problem here is that the monkey's bonus is too high, allowing it to jump really far (although not that far, if you have ever seen a small monkey jump around in trees, but I digress). All things considered, I am thinking that Acrobatics might need a modifier based on size as well, as it seems silly to me that a giant can tumble around as easily as a monkey.
Well, the giant can tumble as easily as a monkey, but the monkey has a relatively better chance of catching the giant because the giant presents such a huge target.
I agree. Size modifiers would be an excellent addition here.
Unlike Fly, this is a bit more tricky. I actually think that the problem here is that the monkey's bonus is too high, allowing it to jump really far (although not that far, if you have ever seen a small monkey jump around in trees, but I digress). All things considered, I am thinking that Acrobatics might need a modifier based on size as well, as it seems silly to me that a giant can tumble around as easily as a monkey.
But the problem is a Giant should be able to jump further than a monkey, given it's stride and strength. A large spider, big but agile, should have no trouble balancing on slim terrain where others might fall. The broad nature of Acrobatics means that you penalize all aspects trying to account for one
What about increasing the Tumble DC? To tumble past a creature one size category smaller than you, the DC increases by 4. Two size categories it increases by 8. So on and so forth. This mirrors other mechanics with combat manuevers, has the same end result, and doesn't involve terribly complicated math. You could even apply the inverse, so the Cheeky Monkey can Tumble past said giant with ease, but this may make Tumbling too powerful.
BrotherWilli has a suggestion HERE that would help with this. Reallocate the combination of skills. Remove jumping (which should be strength-based, not dex-based) from Acrobatics and combine it with Climb to make a skill called Athletics.
Larger sizes could get an athletics bonus and an acrobatics penalty. Smaller sizes could get an acrobatics bonus but not an athletics penalty, because smaller creatures get more bang for their muscular buck. That's why a flea can jump so far.
Alternatly, small creatures could recieve a penalty to athletics, but more creatures that are especially good climbers or jumpers could get the ability to take 10 or even 20. (Real world example: I think our 6 foot fence is about the limit of our cat's vertical jump, but he lands it every time.)
BrotherWilli has a suggestion HERE that would help with this. Reallocate the combination of skills. Remove jumping (which should be strength-based, not dex-based) from Acrobatics and combine it with Climb to make a skill called Athletics.
Larger sizes could get an athletics bonus and an acrobatics penalty. Smaller sizes could get an acrobatics bonus but not an athletics penalty, because smaller creatures get more bang for their muscular buck. That's why a flea can jump so far.
Alternatly, small creatures could recieve a penalty to athletics, but more creatures that are especially good climbers or jumpers could get the ability to take 10 or even 20. (Real world example: I think our 6 foot fence is about the limit of our cat's vertical jump, but he lands it every time.)
I do think removing jumping from Acrobatics would help clarify things quite a bit. I still think increasing tumbling DCs based on size makes more sense for avoiding AoO, because why can't a giant tumble past another giant as easily as a person can tumble past another person?