|
Are they the same thing? I ask because they sometimes seem to be used interchangeably in the Beta.
When discussing Feint:
On p151 the text says: "If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn." However, under the Bluff skill (p55), the text says: "You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be flat-footed against your next attack." (The Watcher pointed this one out)
When discussing the Pinned condition:
On p 401 the text says "A pinned creature cannot move and is flat-footed." But in Table 9-6 on p147, it says pinned creatures "Treat the defender's Dexterity as 0 (-5 modifier)" which would certainly entail the loss of any Dex bonuses but doesn't specifically say flat-footed.
And under the Acrobatics skill (p54):
The text says that when you try to move across narrow or uneven surfaces without falling "you are considered flat-footed AND lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any)". Since when you are flat-footed you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC anyway, the text is either redundant OR it means that, even if you have Uncanny Dodge (and so, you keep your Dexterity bonus from being flat-footed) you still lose your Dex bonus in this specific case. Which is it? (The Watcher pointed this one out too)
So...
1) Usage of flat-footed and "no Dex bonus to AC" is currently inconsistent and could at least use some tightening up so that multiple references all use the same term (i.e., it doesn't say "flat-footed" in one place and "loses Dex bonus to AC" in another.
2) I'd love to see a better definition of "flat-footed." To me it means surprised and can't use your agility to defend yourself, like what happens in the surprise round, or when a rogue pops out of the shadows, or when someone successfully feints against you, etc. These are for the most part cases when you weren't flat-footed but got that way 'cause somebody pulled a move on you. AND these are cases where someone with Uncanny Dodge ought to have an advantage. On the other hand, when balancing, or when running, or when pinned, blind or stunned, etc., these don't seem like "flat-footed" situations, just times when you can't use your Dex to it's full potential.
I think clarifying the distinction between the two and using the terms more precisely would be a good thing. Other thoughts?
Pulling this from the 3.5 player hand book...sense the Pathfinder book is a bit mixed with alot of the little things......Flat-footed means you don't get your dex bonus to AC for that first round you are counted as flat-footed and you can not make attacks of opportunity during that round.
They're not exactly the same thing, since Uncanny Dodge allows you to keep your dex bonus to AC even when flat-footed.
That means if an ability makes you flat-footed, the uncanny dodger will still get his dex bonus, but if something negates the dex bonus, the UD characters are out of luck.
And if I'm correct, being flat-footed will make you unable to make AoOs, but merely losing your dex bonus doesn't.
|
|
They're not exactly the same thing, since Uncanny Dodge allows you to keep your dex bonus to AC even when flat-footed.
That means if an ability makes you flat-footed, the uncanny dodger will still get his dex bonus, but if something negates the dex bonus, the UD characters are out of luck.
And if I'm correct, being flat-footed will make you unable to make AoOs, but merely losing your dex bonus doesn't.
Okay, these are EXACTLY the kinds of examples I'm looking for. How are the two different and then a little more consistency in the rules about what causes each.
And from d20SRD.org - "A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity." Okay, so "Flat-footed" is more severe and more restrictive than just losing Dex bonus to AC. It's like being unaware or gobsmacked.
With loss of Dex bonus to AC, you're either too busy to pay attention to dodging or someone has gotten around your dodge, but you can still react normally (and make AoOs).
What situations are described as cause what?
Most of the time, you'll be caught flat-footed, which usually means that you lose your Dex bonus to AC and cannot make AoOs. But the rogue and barbarian (and everyone else with uncanny dodge) keep their Dex bonus when flat-footed, and characters with the Combat Reflexes feat can make AoOs while flat-footed.
Some situations directly make you lose your AC bonus, which is actually more powerful, since Uncanny Dodge doesn't help you in those situtions. The main instance for this is feint, which can even get a rogue in trouble.
|
|
I see what you mean. I made a list of "no Dex to AC" triggers a few weeks ago and posted them HERE but I wasn't totally conscious of the difference between flat-footed and loss of Dex bonus at that point. When I get a chance I'll go back through and check which are which. There are actually quite a few occasions when one is denied Dex bonus to AC.