hm... the problem is a penalty to spellcraft just isn't that serious. Maybe if it was a penalty to caster level, but as it stands you should lose something for specializing, and this doesn't show it.
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I'd say let the specialist cast their specialised school as if they were a caster level higher and cast prohibited schools as level lower. that way you can ll cast your prohibited spells, but you're worse at it. It also gives specialist wizards an ability that a standard wizard can't replicate.
I'd also suggest making their prohibited school take a -1 penalty to DC and spell penetration checks and their specialist school gets a similar bonus. The bonus would increase every 10 levels so that they are superior to wizards in their specialism when you get to 20th level.
Finally, I'd let specialists choose spells from other class lists for their bonus abilities at a +2 level cost so a 1st level spell from another list would fit into the slot at 6th level. Again, it gives a reason to be a specialist rather than a general Wizard.
Still looking at the school abilities themselves.
EDIT: Changed the numbers in second paragraph.
Hitting the specialist on the save DC for spells outside of his school is a nice area to go. That really hurts, even if you get a + 1 in your specific school, it is enough to give pause. With that added in I'm more inclined to let something like this through the gate. I realise save DC's are hard to raise or lower, but I might go with a -2 instead... let me math it some.
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I would like the specialist from first level to have a +1 to save DCs of his chosen school on top of his specialist special ability. If he lost both the DC boost and the special ability it would discourage memorizing prohibited schools a litte better and make the specialist best at casting spells in his specialty.
If you specialize you gain bonus spells but at the cost of 2 schools.
If you don't specialize to have total versatility but don't gain bonus spells.
It wasn't broken, so why the hell are we trying to fix it?
If universalist wizards gain bonus spells, I think specialists should be able to change their bonus spells everyday like in 3.5 and universalits should choose a spell for good. That would be the cost for having a lot more choice of spells.
It wasn't broken, so why the hell are we trying to fix it?
Universalists now have bonus spells, and that seems unlikely to change. Something's gotta give.
I've played many specialists, and the D20 magic system is not very friendly to people who lose whole schools. I think the problem stems from the spell library and not the class features.
Going back to 3.5 and using that as a baseline, the only change I would make would be to allow specialists to prepare "weak" schools using higher level spell slots. It seems like that boat has left already though.
Whatever they do, they need to make Specializing slightly better than Universalism for once. Otherwise people will continue to (rightly) avoid the option altogether.
I would say:
*Specialist school is considered +1 caster level for every variable (Range, damage, bypass Spell Resistance...) and +1 to DC of the spells
*Prohibited schools are considered -2 caster level for every variable , as well as -2 to the DC of the spells
It SHOULD also be good if the spells from prohibited schools would be considered of 1 level higher for requisites of memorizing, learning and casting them (think of "metamagic level +1" with an effect of "nothing", so the DC and the immunities for, let's say, Globe of Invulnerability, are still based on the original spell). A Wizard with prohibited school Evocation for example, would cast a Magic Missile as a 2nd level spell (and so, not until class level 3rd, using 2nd level slots, and so on)
Since we’re free to think outside the box…
Specializing replaces the Familiar choice under Arcane Bond. So either you take the Object (Generalist) or you take the Spell School (Specialist).
The Object: Forms bond with a masterwork object to store ‘generic’ arcane energy
- Once per day at 1st level Wizard siphons off the energy and super-charges himself to increase effective Wizard level by 1 for 1 minute
- Effective level effects spell DCs, spell penetration checks, and dispelling checks
- Effective level does not grant additional spells per day
- Object limited to amulet, ring, staff, wand, or weapon
- Can add additional enchantments to object at 1/2 normal cost
- Increase number of times per day and effective Wizard level bonus by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 1st (or 5 times per day and +5 effective levels at 17th level)
- Destruction of object results in -1 penalty to all spell related DCs for 1 week
- Requires 1 week of preparation, 8 hour ceremony, and 200 gp per Wizard level to bond with new item (voluntarily or after destruction or loss)
This brings the Arcane Bonded object in line with the Paladin's Divine Bonded object.
The School: Forms bond with school to focus and manipulate arcane energy
- Select 1 School to bond with and 2 Schools to ignore
- Receive +2 bonus on spell DCs, spell penetration checks, dispelling checks, and Spellcraft checks for spells from bonded school
- Can ‘drop’ a memorized spell (except from an ignored school) to cast a spell from bonded school
- Receive -2 penalty on spell DCs, spell penetration checks, dispelling checks, and Spellcraft checks for spells from ignored schools
- Memorizing a spell from an ignored school takes a spell slot 2 levels higher
- Activating a spell trigger (i.e. for a rod, scroll, staff, wand, etc.) for a spell or spell like effect from ignored school requires a Spellcraft check with a DC 15 + caster level.
- Add a Feat that lowers penalties to -1 on DCs and checks and spell slot only 1 level higher.
This gives the arcane caster a spontaneous casting option that falls in line with the Cleric's and Druid's spontaneous casting options. Well I guess to make it fall in line the Specialist should pick one specific School spell per spell level that they can spontaneously cast.
Regardless, what needs to be added to the rules is some mechanism to prevent a wizard from just using 'down time' to create scrolls and wands that replace spells from their prohibited schools that they get to use at no penalty.
Cheers
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The problem as I see it:
2 prohibited schools for 1 to specialize in is too severe. I feel it should be 1 for 1 - perhaps with the caveat that you cannot prohibit Divination.
Suggestions on this thread to affect DCs and Spell penetration bonuses for favored schools, and/or penalties for prohibited are not universally applicable.
What I mean is that certain schools such as Enchantment, Necromancy, and Evocation have a lot more options for forcing saves and Spell Resistance against than say schools of Transmutation, Illusion, Abjuration and Divination.
Thus this penalty/bonus is more apt to favor certain specialists and/or prohibited schools.
I agree with the Spellcraft bonus for favored, and penalty for prohibited (+2 / -2 respectively).
Instead of a DC and Spell Penetration increase, have a caster level of +1 for favored school.
Prohibited school spells should be one school (only) and be just that - prohibited to be cast.
However, if it is included to be able to be cast from those spells should either take up a 1 level slot higher, or have 1 caster level less.
This is in lieu of losing the favored school spell - not in addition to.
So to summarize:
Specialists:
+1 caster level on favored school
+2 Spellcraft checks to identify spells of that school
1 prohibited school
Spells from that school take up a slot one-level higher
Here's another idea for one's specialists school - perhaps they can always counterspell a spell of their favored school with a spell of that school (equal level or higher must be used) - save as the Improved Counterspell feat.
Robert
A change I'd like to see... people actually PLAYTESTING spellcasters before posting their endless nerf requests, but I know that's like asking for the moon. =P
Also, I wish they hadn't removed Create Undead from Necromancy School Powers, they're again stating "Want -everything- Necromancy has to offer? Tip, the Necromancer is not it.".
The idea is that if you specialize you have no prohibited schools, you gain the bonus to your specialty and take the penalty to ALL other schools of magic.
And I've been playing a Wizard in a RotR game... I'm rocking the house too much truthfully and that's with the DM not letting me use the really fun spells.
Universilists are just too powerful, and that's what I took. The abjurer looks at me with envy as I quicken yet ANOTHER spell for free, and get an offensive and defensive spell off. I even use it to trick people into trying to attack me just to hit a wall at the last second possible, eats up actions that way.
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I've played specialists in 3.5, and I take that approach. The basic feats are worth taking, IMO.
As things stand in the beta, the specialist trades a slight inconvenience (spec power OR prohibited schools today?) for a different flavor of special abilities. Some of those alternate flavors are weaker than the "default" universalist, who trades nothing.
For this system to make sense, the ability to cast from all schools should be counted as a feature of the universalist school, weighed against the other school abilities. And it is a pretty powerful ability, at the end of the day. The wizard is about flexibility, if all you care about is spells/day you might be better served with a sorcerer.
Exactly. The specialist powers should make the specialist able to do things the universalist can't... Perhaps not much more powerful (wizards do not need to be much more powerful), but much more versatile within their school, perhaps gaining unique effects.
The idea of specialists being able to prepare opposing spells but having to give up something for it intrigues me. The something should probably be a little more, though. In turn, though, the universalist shouldn't be getting as many bonus spells as the specialist. (I'm not opposed to the universalist gaining _some_ bonus spells, though... an unspecialized wizard at low levels needs more spells desperately!). Perhaps generalists only get a bonus SLA of their highest level (or can trade it for lower-level ones), or get SLA's more infrequently?
The universalist also should certainly _not_ be getting abilities superior to the specialists', and they especially should not be better at casting spells in a specialists's school than a specialist is! But they should be getting _some_ abilities, to give universalists a reason to stay with the class. Perhaps something themed around their versatility of being good with all schools of magic, something that they can shift around or apply differently each day.
A change I'd like to see... people actually PLAYTESTING spellcasters before posting their endless nerf requests, but I know that's like asking for the moon. =P
Also, I wish they hadn't removed Create Undead from Necromancy School Powers, they're again stating "Want -everything- Necromancy has to offer? Tip, the Necromancer is not it.".
Amen brother. This goes back to theory vs. practice that we finally saw some of in the later days of 3.5 on the CO boards. In theory X is good, in theory Y isn't good enough. In practice you rarely have X when you need it and Y works all the time.
I sincerely doubt most of you have played wizards through from 1-20 in pathfinder, much less 1-20 specialist vs. 1-20 universalist. Most of your suggestions are based in theory which rarely pays out in practice.
"Oh the wizard is too powerful the wizard needs a nerf!" No... the wizard isn't too powerful. It certainly isn't any more powerful then the divine caster's available which never have to worry about things like spellbooks and knowing the right spell. The wizard can be a very useful class, it can be the most powerful in the party depending on the skill of the players involved, the DM, and the specific adventures. Or it can be dead weight. I find more often then not it balances out to somewhere in between, where it's useful but not overpowered.
The extra spell slots the universalist picked up in Pathfinder didn't substantially change the class, certainly not to the point where it now suddenly overshadows all other classes.
Regarding specialization. I agree that specialists need something better. I've said this from the beginning.
Evokers need a real damage bonus, not +5 at 20th level. Try +5 per spell level. Yeh, you heard right. +15 on a 3rd level spell, +45 on a 9th level spell. For a start. That might be low balling the numbers. Seriously, this school sucks and it's bonus is probably the worst (yes, worse then the Diviner). There is a reason this school is the first one I drop on specialist, because blasting sucks - the frontliners do more damage then your nukes and do it all day. If you want the school to be even remotely appealing you need to give them the ability to matchup with fighters in damage output.
Abjuratior's need a serious defense or counterspelling ability. I mean honestly, energy resistance 5 or 10? Really? You want me to give up two schools of magic for that?
Conjurers... I'm not sure, but I'm going to go with something to summon up, you know, like conjuration implies? Maybe summon monster equal to to the highest level spell you can cast -1 (so at 3rd level you can cast Summon Monster I at will, at 5th Summon Monster II, ect). It can be tinkered with, but they certainly need something more then mage armor, which really needs to be moved to Abjuration (for the love of god... please do this, the fact that it went through 3.0 and 3.5 in conjuration is absurd). This is probably significantly overpowered at higher levels though, given the SLA's that many summoned creatures have access to out of combat. The ability to have healing on demand, buffing on demand, and so forth from summoned creatures might be too much.
Divination... oh lord don't get me started. Could the ability be more useless? It should be something like you always act first on a surprise round (or get a hefty bonus to initiative). Honestly given a familiar (which EVERY wizard should take) you should almost never get surprised anyway. Get a Hawk. They have a +16 bonus on spot at 1st level. This ignoring the fact that as a Diviner it's your job to know what's behind the door so you don't get surprised... that's kind of the purpose of your entire school (more or less, in a combat situation at least).
I'll be honest, Enchantment is pretty decent thematically, but it isn't enough of a benefit for me to thing it's enough. I might give them a free diplo check each time they meet a creature, though that does little for combat. I don't know here, it's one of the schools I drop almost every time (again, more later).
Nercomancy's bonus I do like, a lot, but whether it's enough I'm not sure, seeing as how they don't get undead until like 5th level. I don't really play many necromancers or use that many necromancy spells (again, more on that later). I'm tempted to give them Channel Negative Energy, as an evil cleric. Get rid of the grave touch ability. Really, melee for any wizard, much less the wizard that is supposed to have a ton of meat shields is just stupid. This applies to EVERY melee ability you gave a specialist or a sorcerer bloodline. I'm not even joking. What were you thinking? These abilities are next to useless.
Illusion. The problem here is the bonus sucks more and more as you gain levels, seeing as how most high level illusions last multiple rounds/minutes/hours after concentration anyway. I'm not sure what to give them, but it needs to be something more then they have. Oh, and swap out that retarded blinding ray ability. It's crap and almost never worth your action even at low levels.
As I promised, the more later with regard to schools. I almost ALWAYS play specialist in 3.5. The only reason I'm not playing a speclaist in Pathfinder is because my DM is limiting us to core, otherwise I'd be all over the focused specialist like stink on you know what, even with the generalists very good bonuses. I play focused specialist if it's allowed. The truth is you rarely have enough spells from most schools represented in your prepared spells to justify needing all 7 schools, especially with a cleric or druid in the party to pick up certain holes. I'd rather have Fly, Haste, Slow, and Stinking cloud prepared at 5th level then Haste and Stinking cloud. More spells - better overall (though still not better then other classes IMHO). As always the PC classes work best together and are difficult to judge when they fill different roles (though comparison within roles can be done reasonably - for example wizard vs. sorcerer, druid vs. cleric., fighter vs. barbarian vs. paladin).
Anyway, that's my 2 cents for now.
As an off topic note, does anyone else see the Arcane Bloodline as so good that every other bloodline for the sorcerer is worthless. It's almost good enough to make me want to play a sorcerer, even with the delayed spells.