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I don't understand why any tactics-minded player would send his PC alone into a different dimension to face an entire army to save a jerk and a scout they just met.* It looks exactly like a suicide mission.
Worse, it's a suicide mission when there's clearly a much better option available: sit tight.
Think like an army commander for a second. You just beat an army into retreat. Their army has to be in worse shape than yours. They've holed up to heal, but you can heal too, and your clerics are much likely more focused on healing than Ms. Sadist von Arachnophilia. You have a military advantage right now.
A siege is likely to succeed. They're trapped. You know from the PCs that they needed a piece of a Cyphergate to make this gate, so they're likely not going anywhere. You can teleport in supplies, magic items and soldiers; they cannot.** You took away their precious poison and alchemy lab. The longer the siege lasts, the stronger your army gets in comparison to theirs.
What about reinforcements? They can summon demons; it's true. But you have those teleporting wizards (who can bring in 10K magic items and peeps) to counter. Also, you beat them when they were summoning demons before and during the battle. And no competent military commander has a battle plan in which they take a piece of ground without a plan in place to hold the piece of ground.
And when the drow come out? They're in a choke point. A major choke point. Their army has to stream through double-file into a room with 140 feet of space. Then they have to stream through a set of double doors into an even smaller room. Then they have to go single file through a door... You get the point.
But there's no reason for the elves to be so stupid. They should pull the building down. They can bury the portal in rubble. While the drow could remove the rubble through the portal, such work would give the army ample time to prepare for their assault. So the advantage of surprise is lost. They then surround the portal. That way you've got a real choke point, as the drow army goes through two by two to face an entire elvish army, restocked, resupplied, healed, and reinforced.
And the army's job is even easier when its ace-in-the-hole (the heroes essential to their victory) don't run head-long into a trap. After all, they'll be needed to face those demons and the dragon.
Yes, it's sad that the elves lose POWs. But good isn't stupid. When the drow come out, you'll get your people's bodies back. If we're supposed to care enough about the jerk and the scout to find rushing headlong into an army's hideaway even remotely tempting, you care enough about them to raise them from the dead. If the elves can teleport in supplies, they can do it.
Is there any military reason why Shalelu DOESN'T end up a vampire?
*And, yes, I'm aware that meta-reasons are one of the rationales for saving Shalelu.
** And if they can flee home, you've won the field of battle, which was the point of this exercise in the first place.
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I don't understand why any tactics-minded player would send his PC alone into a different dimension to face an entire army to save a jerk and a scout they just met.* It looks exactly like a suicide mission.
Worse, it's a suicide mission when there's clearly a much better option available: sit tight.
Think like an army commander for a second. You just beat an army into retreat. Their army has to be in worse shape than yours. They've holed up to heal, but you can heal too, and your clerics are much likely more focused on healing than Ms. Sadist von Arachnophilia. You have a military advantage right now.
A siege is likely to succeed. They're trapped. You know from the PCs that they needed a piece of a Cyphergate to make this gate, so they're likely not going anywhere. You can teleport in supplies, magic items and soldiers; they cannot.** You took away their precious poison and alchemy lab. The longer the siege lasts, the stronger your army gets in comparison to theirs.
What about reinforcements? They can summon demons; it's true. But you have those teleporting wizards (who can bring in 10K magic items and peeps) to counter. Also, you beat them when they were summoning demons before and during the battle. And no competent military commander has a battle plan in which they take a piece of ground without a plan in place to hold the piece of ground.
And when the drow come out? They're in a choke point. A major choke point. Their army has to stream through double-file into a room with 140 feet of space. Then they have to stream through a set of double doors into an even smaller room. Then they have to go single file through a door... You get the point.
But there's no reason for the elves to be so stupid. They should pull the building down. They can bury the portal in rubble. While the drow could remove the rubble through the portal, such work would give the army ample time to prepare for their assault. So the advantage of surprise is lost. They then surround the portal. That way you've got a real...
Same reason the US army genuinely did try the Saving Private Ryan routine in WWII. Sometimes morale is more important than strategy and for an Elf, as far as I recall, becoming undead is far, far, far worse than death. The effects of a comrade coming back as an elven vampire on your troops might be far more terrifying than it would be for anyone else (and vampires are fairly terrifying to begin with).
Plus, let's be honest even smart generals sometimes make snap gut decisions that aren't the best strategically for personal reasons. Make a minor change and one of the elves become the Generals' child and it's car why he'd ask these powerful strangers to help him.
Also, there's no knowing what the Drow are planning. They're Drow. The plan you know about almost certainly isn't the entirety of their plan, so extra recon into their city can only help.
I haven't read the adventure yet (only just got the whole batch of pdfs) but those are some possibilities.
It's a bit different from Saving Private Ryan. The PCs are supposed to make a snap decision, as they didn't know the portal was closing when they went on the mission. It's like a Lieutenant deciding to send his squad to search for Ryan. And that squad would have to be the very TOP squad in the entire army. After it went through the wringer facing quality troops. And was low on ammo.
Creative Director
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A siege could indeed be more efficient, but if you go with having the elves being taken into the Echo and the PCs don't go try to save them, I suspect that what'll happen is that the elves left in Celwynvian will attempt a rescue on their own and won't come back. This may happen 2 or 3 times, and if the PCs continue to not help, their reputation with the elves will start to erode, I would think, which would be bad for everyone involved since that'd mean that the elves wouldn't come to the PCs for help at the start of the next adventure and that could mean the end of the campaign as far as the PCs are involved and then you get a Second Darkness hitting the world.
To a certain extent, several plot points in Second Darkness assume the PCs are good folk and that they take matters into their own hands and follow up on clues without being told to do so or being asked to do so in return for a reward. We chose this route after receiving feedback about Curse of the Crimson Throne having folk order the PCs around to send them on one mission after another got old and made the PCs feel like errand boys and girls.
That all said, if your PCs are hesitant to go into the Armageddon Echo, I'd have the elves offer them a reward to spur them on. They'll say "You PCs are tougher than us elves; you helped turn the tide of a siege that's been going on for decades here in Celwynvian, don't let that siege drag out even further! Please go into that portal and save our kin and finish off the boss! We'll give you these shiny gems if you do!"
If THAT doesn't work, then you should probably let the PCs do what they want. And if that's "Wait out here for the siege to break or for the elves to come out," that'll be boring. The snarky GM might just roleplay out the days or weeks. But a better solution might be to just tell the PCs that a certain number of days later, the elves emerge from the Echo as a mass group. If the PCs are ready for them IN THE ROOM, then they'll face every drow and every drow ally at once in a wave, which will probably be a TPK. If they're not ready, the drow can easilly go from the Echo through the other portal into the Darklands, leaving the Echo empty. The PCs can explore the Echo then at their leisure, but the next adventure will be significantly more difficult for them since the drow will then have LOTS of info about them and what happened at Celwynvian, and they'll probably have to face an Azrinae house that, rather than being underpopulated, is full of soldiers and up in arms. Given the nature of the next adventure (Disguise yourselves as drow and sneak into the drow city to see what's going on), that'll be pretty tough...
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Creative Director
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But there's no reason for the elves to be so stupid. They should pull the building down. They can bury the portal in rubble. While the drow could remove the rubble through the portal, such work would give the army ample time to prepare for their assault. So the advantage of surprise is lost. They then surround the portal.
Keep in mind that the Academy of Arts is an ancient elven monument that's been around since before Earthfall. And elves are VERY fond of traditions. In a way, tearing down the Academy of Arts is letting the drow win, since it forces the elves to destroy their own history.
Whereas sitting and waiting is VERY much an elven idea, to be honest. They live for centuries. That's why the whole situation at Celwynvian drug out for so long in the first place, honestly; the elves were waiting and when the PCs show up, they're the catalyst for change.
Again... if the PCs convince the elves to tear down the building and surround the area, they'll have to face all of the drow forces in there at once (including a dragon and a lot of demons). And then you'll have a mass battle on your hands. The rules don't handle mass battles well... which is honestly one of the reasons we handled this adventure the way we did, with small skirmishing strikes that focus on the PC missions rather than the big fights.
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Also, you people tend to forget that the Drow are aliied with a dragon... a nasty surprise for any in-building based ambush. just have the PC's encounter him during the earlier parts of the siege, and than they'll know that the Drow can escape easily. they need only to send Razorhorn first and he will collapse the entire building in a matter of minutes, probably killing dozens while at it.
another thing: I don't remeber- are the PC's awere that the portalleads to the Echo when they pass through it? if not, than the entire problam dosen't exiscts, since the PC's can't be sure that ambushing the portal is possible, anyway.
But there's no reason for the elves to be so stupid. They should pull the building down. They can bury the portal in rubble. While the drow could remove the rubble through the portal, such work would give the army ample time to prepare for their assault. So the advantage of surprise is lost. They then surround the portal.... In a way, tearing down the Academy of Arts is letting the drow win, since it forces the elves to destroy their own history.
...
Again... if the PCs convince the elves to tear down the building and surround the area, they'll have to face all of the drow forces in there at once (including a dragon and a lot of demons). And then you'll have a mass battle on your hands. The rules don't handle mass battles well... which is honestly one of the reasons we handled this adventure the way we did, with small skirmishing strikes that focus on the PC missions rather than the big fights.
I can certainly agree that mass battles are a hole in the system. That's one of the reasons why I'd want to get this moment right before running this scenario.
According to the module, those drow within 300' of the portal key will be shunted back into reality from the pocket dimension. (In three days, although only the drow and powerful divinations would know this information.) If the portal is covered in stone rubble from the building, where do these drow go? Do they teleport into the rubble and take damage, like a blink or a dimension door gone awry?
You see the problem, right? Either the drow see the rubble burying their way out and start digging out, causing the entire army of elves to be waiting there for them or they all get shunted out simultaneously and randomly placed, taking damage before they even enter the battle with the entire massed army of the elves AND the PCs. And the army of elves will be there, because it's only been three days. That's a horrifically bad situation to start a battle in.
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Creative Director
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I can certainly agree that mass battles are a hole in the system. That's one of the reasons why I'd want to get this moment right before running this scenario.
According to the module, those drow within 300' of the portal key will be shunted back into reality from the pocket dimension. (In three days, although only the drow and powerful divinations would know this information.) If the portal is covered in stone rubble from the building, where do these drow go? Do they teleport into the rubble and take damage, like a blink or a dimension door gone awry?
You see the problem, right? Either the drow see the rubble burying their way out and start digging out, causing the entire army of elves to be waiting there for them or they all get shunted out simultaneously and randomly placed, taking damage before they even enter the battle with the entire massed army of the elves AND the PCs. And the army of elves will be there, because it's only been three days. That's a horrifically bad situation to start a battle in.
Drow that are shunted back to the Material Plane would appear in areas as close as possible to where they were in the Armageddon Echo. In fact, they probably wouldn't appear at the site of the gate at all, but wherever the corresponding site would be in real-world modern Celwynvian. In any event, such a drastic and unusual tactic isn't one covered by the adventure because it's not the "Fun" way to solve the adventure. We also don't bother to talk about what happens if the PCs decide to "solve" a haunted house by burning the house down, or what to do if instead of exploring the ancient ruin they earthquake it into powder. I wouldn't call leaving out advice in such situations a problem at all. If we spent all our effort describing how to salvage an adventure to make up for drastic and unanticipated PC actions, there wouldn't be room left to have the adventure in the first place.
To a certain extent, several plot points in Second Darkness assume the PCs are good folk and that they take matters into their own hands and follow up on clues without being told to do so or being asked to do so in return for a reward. We chose this route after receiving feedback about Curse of the Crimson Throne having folk order the PCs around to send them on one mission after another got old and made the PCs feel like errand boys and girls.
I think that my scenario assumes that the PCs are good, smart heroes. I do not think that a DM can assume that the PCs are going to follow the AP's assumed path here.
I can understand and appreciate avoiding too many orders from on high. But without them, you have to have a really good emotional hook. I really think DMs will have to create a much better relationship between the PCs and the POWs than the adventure really gives them. The mercenary leader is a jerk several times to the party for perfectly good reasons and his gratitude consists of not being a jerk during the planning for the final combat. Shalelu does not have enough screen time to warrant a suicide mission. I mean, it's not like Kwava or Samaritha have been kidnapped here. The hook has to be as powerful as Crown of the Kobold Kings to go into a pocket dimension facing part of an army. And it's not like the PCs are going to have many magical resources or hit points left in the tank to give them the confidence to go racing in. Not after a drow squad, an aboleth and a barbarian back to back to back. They're going to have every incentive in the world to rest for a day before going in there. And that makes it even more unlikely that the party heroes will run in where angels fear to tread.
That all said, if your PCs are hesitant to go into the Armageddon Echo, I'd have the elves offer them a reward to spur them on. They'll say "You PCs are tougher than us elves; you helped turn the tide of a siege that's been going on for decades here in Celwynvian, don't let that siege drag out even further! Please go into that portal and save our kin and finish off the boss! We'll give you these shiny gems if you do!"
I suppose begging and nakedly stroking the egos of the players might work. It doesn't exactly convince players that this is the smart thing to do. And those elves aren't there when the portal is fading in and out. And do the PCs even know definitively that the POWs are still alive?
If THAT doesn't work, then you should probably let the PCs do what they want. And if that's "Wait out here for the siege to break or for the elves to come out," that'll be boring. The snarky GM might just roleplay out the days or weeks.
Oh, come on. It'll be three days according to the module. It takes little effort and drains little tension to fade out, have the party plan their siege of the portal, then fade back in.
And since when is rewarding smart play by your players worthy of snark? Shouldn't we be rewarding players for thinking on their feet then coming up with a viable plan of action? I know a ton of players that would love to plan an ambush in this situation. And shouldn't participating on these boards be exactly about DMs trying to anticipate what smart players will do with the given scenario? That's what I'm trying to do with you here.
But a better solution might be to just tell the PCs that a certain number of days later, the elves emerge from the Echo as a mass group. If the PCs are ready for them IN THE ROOM, then they'll face every drow and every drow ally at once in a wave, which will probably be a TPK. If they're not ready, the drow can easilly go from the Echo through the other portal into the Darklands, leaving the Echo empty.
Which is why the proposed player plan looks nothing like this one. The alternative plan involved covering the pocket dimension portal with rubble, gathering the PCs and the elvish army around that pile of rubble, and waiting for the drow to dig out to face a numerically superior, rested, prepared and entrenched foe that has them surrounded.
For the purposes of the plot, the best case scenario is that after they kill the drow army fragment and its leaders and take their journals and reports, they then decide, what the heck, to tour the Armageddon Echo at their leisure. I can easily see that happening.
We also don't bother to talk about what happens if the PCs decide to "solve" a haunted house by burning the house down, or what to do if instead of exploring the ancient ruin they earthquake it into powder. I wouldn't call leaving out advice in such situations a problem at all. If we spent all our effort describing how to salvage an adventure to make up for drastic and unanticipated PC actions, there wouldn't be room left to have the adventure in the first place.
Which would be why you count on DMs to bring up said issues in your online forums so that other DMs can anticipate such solutions and give those players the best experience of Paizo products possible. Which is what I'm doing.
For me, this is about brainstorming solutions to a plot problem, not about anything else.
Edit: And, for the record, I don't consider an ambush to be anything like burning down the haunted house as a solution. You're acting within the genre constraints, not breaking genre. Nor was I suggesting earthquaking the entire ruin into powder. I was suggesting using existing siege weaponry to pull down this one ancient building, which already has two large holes in it.
I really don't see how setting up an ambush is badwrongfun.
Drow that are shunted back to the Material Plane would appear in areas as close as possible to where they were in the Armageddon Echo. In fact, they probably wouldn't appear at the site of the gate at all, but wherever the corresponding site would be in real-world modern Celwynvian.
Yes, that would change the tactics of this scenario enormously. Does the module say this? I don't recall.
This is one possible solution. If the PCs know going in to the mission that the drow leadership could pop back up anywhere in the city at any time rather than just be coming back out of the portal, that would make an ambush scenario much less feasible. You can't set up an ambush for a fragment of an army that could show up anywhere in the city.
(Although if the PCs figure out why the drow needed the SECOND portal, you're right back where you started: the drow have to come to this place, so we entrench our superior forces and wipe them out whenever they come.)
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Creative Director
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In any case... the point is that there are clues for the PCs to find in the Armageddon Echo. As long as they don't totally avoid the Echo and eventually go in there to learn those clues, and as long as they get the shadow key from the bad guy, it doesn't really matter what they did to get there, I guess.
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I will repeat- the Drow have a huge inteligent lizard with wings, magical powers and the ability to spit acid so strong it could eat through stone. any attempt to block them with barricades or narrow corridors will be loughbly failed in a metter of minutes. if the PC's know that, they are fully awere that they can't really raise up ant efficent deffence, and a great battle with many loses on both sides will erupt. oh, if only they would have gone to a little solo mission when they had the chance...
Spoilerific drow counter-siege strategy below:
The drow know that drow outside of the safety of the keystone get turned into Blastshadows, I could see a drow commander forcibly sacrificing a the "lesser" drow (those below CR 5) and allowing them to become blastshadows, then forcing/compelling an army of those undead through the gate.
This gives them a much strong force that has several immunities, as well as concealment and a minor area of effect defense. The elven defenders probably won't have enough undead turning to defeat a few hundred cr 5 undead.
An other option is simply allow Nolveniss to escape the Armageddon echo by summoning Xill via Summon Monster V, and having the Xill use it's planeswalking ability to let Nolveniss escape the demiplane to a place of his choosing on the Prime Material plane.
Yes, that would change the tactics of this scenario enormously. Does the module say this? I don't recall.
What exactly will the Players know about the Echo at this point in time? I'll have to go back in and re-read the module but I think you are assuming the players will know a bit more about the echo and the portal than when they actually do.
Namely I don't think the players know:
- What resources the drow have in the echo
- Whether the drow have to leave the echo through the same portal they enetered
- If the drow have what they need (and can abandon Celwynvian).
I gotta poke around in the module again I guess because maybe they do know this stuff...
Spoilerific drow counter-siege strategy below:
** spoiler omitted **
They don't have clerics to control/move those forces.
I will repeat- the Drow have a huge inteligent lizard with wings, magical powers and the ability to spit acid so strong it could eat through stone. any attempt to block them with barricades or narrow corridors will be loughbly failed in a metter of minutes. if the PC's know that, they are fully awere that they can't really raise up ant efficent deffence, and a great battle with many loses on both sides will erupt. oh, if only they would have gone to a little solo mission when they had the chance...
You only need minutes when you're entrenched and on high alert. The point of the pile of stone over the magic portal was to prevent a suprise attack. Whether physically moving the stones, using acid, or even disintegrating parts of it... the elvish army camped surrounding the portal now knows that they are coming and can start the battle with bows drawn and with prep spells cast on their leaders.
As for the dragon... you'll note that it had to retreat into the portal in the first place, and it had an entire army backing it before it did so. It can't be the difference maker in this ambush scenario precisely because it wasn't the difference maker in the lost battle before the ambush. And now, it's surrounded, starts on the ground, and has much fewer allies.
Edit: Look, this solo mission you refer to consists of the PCs defeating the entire drow army by themselves in unknown and hostile territory; surely, if it's possible for them to do so on their own, it will be easier with a skilled and entrenched army backing them up?
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What exactly will the Players know about the Echo at this point in time? I'll have to go back in and re-read the module but I think you are assuming the players will know a bit more about the echo and the portal than when they actually do.
Agreed. I have the module right here in front of me and I think roguerouge is assuming the elves & PCs have a lot more information about the inner workings of the Echo then they should at this point.
Shindiira's journal from Children of the Void is fairly vague about the Echo. Even if you assume it gives all the backstory presented on pages 44 - 47 of that adventure, all the PCs really get is the name "Armageddon Echo", that a piece of the Cyphergate arch is somehow connected to the Echo, that the drow are studying the Earthfall and planning something similar, some information about drow society/politics in Zirnakaynin, and that the drow in Celwynvian are being lead by wizard named Nolveniss.
In Crying Leaf, the elves put together the information they already knew with the information in in the journals and come up with the fact that the Armageddon Echo is a demiplane and the entry portal is located in the Academy of the Arts. (pg. 13 - 15). The elves do NOT know how many drow are in the city; sometimes there are hundreds and other times the city is empty (sidebar on page 15). There is also no indication in the adventure that the elves know specifically how/where the drow are getting into the city (other the vague idea that they are coming "from the darklands" on page 13).
Nothing in the adventure implies that the elves believe the portal in the Academy is the only EXIT to the Echo, only that it is the only entry point. As Dennis pointed out in his post, the elves don't seem to have any idea of what is inside the Echo.
Eviana's instructions on page 27 explain that the attack on the Academy of the Arts is not a major battle involving the entire army. The majority of the elves are still spread out in smaller battles throughout the city. The attack that the PCs take part in is an attempt to capture or kill the drow leadership and seize control of the Armageddon Echo portal.
When the PCs arrive at room D9 and fight Kardrogas, Nolveniss has entered the Echo along with some POWs. The PCs should know Nolveniss is in there, either because they haven't encountered him yet and it is the most likely place for him or because they spoke with Ixilano, the aboleth in the previous room, who will outright explain (if given the chance) that Nolveniss has fled into the Echo.
Finally, it isn't as if the entire remaining drow army is standing just inside the gate. When the PCs look through, all they can see is a shadowy duplicate of Celwynvian populated by non-drow elves that can be infiltrated in the hopes of completing their task of killing the fleeing drow leader before he has a chance to escape and/or regroup his forces for a counterattack.
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Oh, come on. It'll be three days according to the module. It takes little effort and drains little tension to fade out, have the party plan their siege of the portal, then fade back in.
Three days INSIDE the echo. Several weeks outside. (Sidebar on page 33 and the paragraph directly below the sidebar).
Time flows differently inside the demiplane. I seem to recall that being mentioned elsewhere as well.
Either way, since neither the party or the elves know how long it will be before the portal reopens, or even if it WILL reopen, I would imagine that maintaining a razor-sharp ambush for that long while there are other things to be done in the city (monsters, errant demons, undead, the rest of the skirmishes against the drow still in the city/surrounding forest) is a little unrealistic. Most likely, when Nolveniss emerges from the portal with his dragon and elite bodyguards he will have the element of surprise and an advantage of force against the token elven guards left watching the spot where the portal once was, overwhelm them, and flee through the Elf Gate back to the drow city. THEN the drow can invade with lots of backup.
Killing Nolveniss puts the key to the Elf Gate back in the hands of the elves and (from what we've seen so far) prevents the drow from leading another mass assault on the city through it.
... all the PCs really get is the name "Armageddon Echo", that a piece of the Cyphergate arch is somehow connected to the Echo, that the drow are studying the Earthfall and planning something similar, some information about drow society/politics in Zirnakaynin, and that the drow in Celwynvian are being lead by wizard named Nolveniss.
In Crying Leaf, the elves put together the information they already knew with the information in in the journals and come up with the fact that the Armageddon Echo is a demiplane and the entry portal is located in the Academy of the Arts.
First, these are some good arguments.
My basic point is that I don't think that it's likely that a group of four PCs will attempt this mission for two reasons. The first reason is that they likely will not be willing to and the second is that they will find better options.
Let's start with the first issue. To get to the portal in the first place they, at minimum, have to face an EL 9, EL 7, EL 7, and either an EL 7, 8 or 9 encounter. (The aboleth gets bored and tries to enslave them after talking, btw.) If they face either of the easier combats, add in an EL 8 or an EL 9 encounter. They're not going to have much of anything in the tank.
Now add in the fact that they might not have Plane Shift yet, as a 5th level spell. And that they know that they're facing someone with a dragon, an unknown sized army, and the ability to create a demi-plane. Note that this military force is sizable enough that any dent that the PCs make in the enemy HQ in the demiplane is filled in with enough drow to make for an equivalent EL encounter the next day. And that the demiplane drow have no manpower limits. (p. 40)
Given that, it was my assumption that the having driven off such a sizable chunk of their forces and all their leadership, the Elvish army was basically mopping up now that the Academy mission ended with the Flight of the Drow. Those conditions, according to the module, will be in place for 3 days, not that the elves know that at the time.
They also have almost no emotional connection to the two name POWs.
Nothing in the adventure implies that the elves believe the portal in the Academy is the only EXIT to the Echo, only that it is the only entry point. As Dennis pointed out in his post, the elves don't seem to have any idea of what is inside the Echo.
My understanding of the concept of the demiplane is that what makes something a demiplane is that it connects to just one plane at just one point. If that definition is wrong and someone has a citation from the rules, please let me know. 'Cause if it does connect at just one point, then there is only one entrance or exit.
Basically, even after your post and even assuming that the PCs have no intuitive leaps, the party, with these knowledge limitations, is much better off resting, helping the army mop up, and setting up the ambush.
Several weeks outside. (Sidebar on page 33 and the paragraph directly below the sidebar).
Either way, since neither the party or the elves know how long it will be before the portal reopens, or even if it WILL reopen, I would imagine that maintaining a razor-sharp ambush for that long while there are other things to be done in the city (monsters, errant demons, undead, the rest of the skirmishes against the drow still in the city/surrounding forest) is a little unrealistic. Most likely, when Nolveniss emerges from the portal with his dragon and elite bodyguards he will have the element of surprise and an advantage of force against the token elven guards left watching the spot where the portal once was, overwhelm them, and flee through the Elf Gate back to the drow city. THEN the drow can invade with lots of backup.
Hence the importance of pulling the building down around the portal, which prevents said surprises.
And if James can make the argument that elves are overly patient, they can be overly patient waiting for the drow to come out of their hideaway in a few weeks. Also, high level divinations should provide some guidance, as should the vaunted elvish understanding of arcane magic.
And if James can make the argument that elves are overly patient, they can be overly patient waiting for the drow to come out of their hideaway in a few weeks. Also, high level divinations should provide some guidance, as should the vaunted elvish understanding of arcane magic.
except the highest level stated caster in the module is a 7th level sorcerer, and Evania's backstory indicates that she is not interested in bring Kyonin into the mix (else she would have brought in the big guns from the beginning.)
few other points:
planeshift is a level 7 spell
Nolveniss can still elude the pcs via a summoned Xill, which should be worrisome as the intelligence he possesses is key to the drow's plan.
RAW on a demiplane is:
DemiplanesThis catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across.
So access is limited, but the limit isn't defined. The demiplane in chapter 5 of RoRL was escapable via planeshift or planar teleportation effects.
Finally, while the drow do not have divine casters capable of rebuking or controlling blast shadows, that level of control is unnecessary, as the drow can exploit blast shadow behavior to lure the shadows through a gate.
Morale: Blast shadows never retreat and
doggedly follow foes that attempt to flee.
roguerogue,
I think what you suggest is possible... but unlikely for my group. I would say unlikely for most groups but who knows. Fortunately, if your group does back out you have the luxury of time on your side. Should your group opt to wimp out then give them some missions in the city helping clean up and you can deal with the repercussions of them not following between sessions.
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I will repeat- the Drow have a huge inteligent lizard with wings, magical powers and the ability to spit acid so strong it could eat through stone. any attempt to block them with barricades or narrow corridors will be loughbly failed in a metter of minutes. if the PC's know that, they are fully awere that they can't really raise up ant efficent deffence, and a great battle with many loses on both sides will erupt. oh, if only they would have gone to a little solo mission when they had the chance...You only need minutes when you're entrenched and on high alert. The point of the pile of stone over the magic portal was to prevent a suprise attack. Whether physically moving the stones, using acid, or even disintegrating parts of it... the elvish army camped surrounding the portal now knows that they are coming and can start the battle with bows drawn and with prep spells cast on their leaders.
As for the dragon... you'll note that it had to retreat into the portal in the first place, and it had an entire army backing it before it did so. It can't be the difference maker in this ambush scenario precisely because it wasn't the difference maker in the lost battle before the ambush. And now, it's surrounded, starts on the ground, and has much fewer allies.
Edit: Look, this solo mission you refer to consists of the PCs defeating the entire drow army by themselves in unknown and hostile territory; surely, if it's possible for them to do so on their own, it will be easier with a skilled and entrenched army backing them up?
wrong.
if I remember correctly, the dragon held back during most od the adventure so that he could have a big entrence scene to frighten the elves. also, in order to make the ambush on nerrow corridors adventgous, the elves will have to organise in tight formations, or at least organize in a tight area, and shot dozens of arrows avrey second. that's making them vulnurable to the dragon- in one breath of acid, he could take down an entire squad. even if Razorhorn fought before, he brought less advantege becase of the famos skirmish battle tatics taken by the elfs.about the solo mission- the PC's don't need to actually face a drow army in there. the army is scatterd in patrols throughout the city, and only the high command and severl guards inhibtate the obsevitory. it's more like a commando mission. you might just as well ask why can't James Bond take out the entire red army, if he could pentrate their most guarded outposts...
planeshift is a level 7 spellNolveniss can still elude the pcs via a summoned Xill, which should be worrisome as the intelligence he possesses is key to the drow's plan.
My point with Plane Shift is that, as a fifth level cleric spell, the party might not have access to it yet. That makes the decision to enter a strange demi-plane with no guaranteed way to get out of the demi-plane--with 60-80 percent of their resources gone--that much less likely.
And no, Noveliss cannot summon a xill, which is a summon monster VI spell for two reasons:
1. Conjuration is a prohibited school for him.
2. He can't cast 6th level spells.
wrong.
if I remember correctly, the dragon held back during most od the adventure so that he could have a big entrence scene to frighten the elves. also, in order to make the ambush on nerrow corridors adventgous, the elves will have to organise in tight formations, or at least organize in a tight area, and shot dozens of arrows avrey second. that's making them vulnurable to the dragon- in one breath of acid, he could take down an...
First off, not that the party or the drow knows this, but the dragon is likely to ditch once the drow come out of the portal: "Since arriving, the dragon has been waiting in this room for a chance to return to what he considers to be his city. He’s worried that his lair (a short flight south of Celwynvian in the Calphiak foothills), and by extension, his treasure, is unguarded, and wants nothing more than to escape the Armageddon Echo and make his way back there
to recover and rethink his allegiance with the treacherous dark elves."Second, I've done a find search on his name in the pdf and nothing indicates that the dragon has not participated in the combats. Indeed, in the bestiary's random encounter table, he's referred to doing a hit and run attack.
Other questions:
As an illusionist with banned conjuration, how is Nolveniss summoning these demons, anyway? How are the babaus bound by magic? And, even if someone else in the army got them for him, how will he get more?
This army of undead is seriously overstated. They have no way of making vampires. The staff gives them control over 16 zombies. The blast shadows should regard both the drow and the elves as foe that they will doggedly pursue.
Why are they so focused on guarding only one side of the portal? Why don't they leave even one scout in the demiplane to check if the army's coming after them?
By my reading, Nolveniss comes out the demiplane with the following resources:
Himself. 16 zombies. An assassin. A top slave. A drow captain, 2 arcanists, and 4 soldiers. 2 babaus. A dragon itching to roll in his hoard and ditch them. And an unknown number of drow patrols.
A second force unaligned and hostile to both drow and elves: a number of blast shadows equal to however many drow are not within 300' of him.
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wrong.
if I remember correctly, the dragon held back during most od the adventure so that he could have a big entrence scene to frighten the elves. also, in order to make the ambush on nerrow corridors adventgous, the elves will have to organise in tight formations, or at least organize in a tight area, and shot dozens of arrows avrey second. that's making them vulnurable to the dragon- in one breath of acid, he could take down an...First off, not that the party or the drow knows this, but the dragon is likely to ditch once the drow come out of the portal: "Since arriving, the dragon has been waiting in this room for a chance to return to what he considers to be his city. He’s worried that his lair (a short flight south of Celwynvian in the Calphiak foothills), and by extension, his treasure, is unguarded, and wants nothing more than to escape the Armageddon Echo and make his way back there
to recover and rethink his allegiance with the treacherous dark elves."
first, if the party don't know about it, then it dosen't matter to the question they'll face, whether or not to jump had first into enemy premises.
second, you must remember that Razorhorn has no other way of escaping the Echo accept waiting untill Nolveniss decides it's time- that means he must move with the Drow. and they could very easily convince him to lead the charge outside the portal. so, regeardless of motives, Razorhorn will be a major problam.thierd and last, if the elves are aware of the dragon's presence, it actually simplyfie the situation rather then complicate it. it means that they (the elves) would have all the motivation in the world to send a small band of elite mercneries into the Echo to solve the problam before it arises.
about the solo mission- the PC's don't need to actually face a drow army in there. the army is scatterd in patrols throughout the city, and only the high command and severl guards inhibtate the obsevitory. it's more like a commando mission. you might just as well ask why can't James Bond take out the entire red army, if he could pentrate their most guarded outposts...
When the party is making the crucial decision, they don't know how the drow have distributed their forces. For all they know, a sizable force has been left on just the other side of the portal to ambush pursuers. After all, the drow left a sizable force on this side to defend it.
There's no way that they could suspect that Nolveniss would be so stupid as to not even leave a spy or his assassin to spy on whoever might follow him.
They also don't know that Nolveniss will stupidly stay on top of the HQ rooftop to allow the party to skip his entire army to take him on simply by using spider climb or fly spells. Why the dragon is not up there, I'll never know.
So, yes, if the players meta-game, they'll believe that this is a commando mission that they can handle, because the DM has always given them only EL-appropriate encounters thus far. But if you let the players think about this my suspicion is that a number of players will balk for the reasons that I've detailed. That will produce a mass combat down the road, although hopefully the DM will not be including these vampires and extra demons that the drow can't possibly have access to.
regeardless of motives, Razorhorn will be a major problam.
Look, I agree with you that a dragon will be a major problem. My argument previously was that whatever resources the drow HQ can bring to bear, the elves can trump with weeks of preparation, entrenchment, divinations, superior numbers, better clerics, teleporting mages for reinforcements and resupply, and a past history of beating a superior force that included the HQ and dragon. And the heroes, if they don't hare off blindly after a superior force into unknown terrain.
I really am not understanding how people can seriously argue that the Elvish army plus heroes could beat the drow army plus HQ but somehow the Elvish army plus heroes can't beat the HQ plus a much smaller force of drow later.
I really don't see this as the players wimping out, in Dennis' terms. I see the players balking at going through the portal as excellent role playing that I would reward.
Instead, the module asks the players to stop thinking. And, if they don't knuckle under, you punish them with vampires and demons that their opponents couldn't have. And that's really unfair.
I agree with roguerouge. Pursuing the drow through the portal seems like a suicide, unless the party consists of elite optimizers, who trashed every previous encounter of the day with minimum effort. Otherwise, PCs should be on their last legs. Even though Second Darkness don't seem to be as murderous as the rest of the Paizo's APs, jumping into the unknown at best and into the drow ambush on the other side at worst (it is generally a good idea not to base all of your hopes on assumption, that the enemy is going to act stupidly) is a classic example of a Very Bad Idea of the sort, that gets you TPKed in the dungeons. For example, I had started our current RotRL-based campaing with an explicit warning, that PCs should not expect level-appropriate encounters, but, rather, encounters they will manage to get themselves into, with headlong charges into the danger being at their own risk (and, you know, PCs need such warning in RotRL, even with extremely passive enemy behavior). Immediate jump into a demiplane, while the party desperately needs rest (and possibly some raising the dead) is an example of such charge, in my opinion.
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still, the chances of Nolveniss or even a lesser Drow soldier or a demon might easily slip away from the massive battle and into the poral back to the Darklands. that would be nasty for the PC's in the next adventure.
also, no one says the elves can't beat the Drow, just remember that if the adventure run as predicted (or close enough to it), the elven army wasn't exactly having a great time during the war. they had losses, and the tide of battle was nearly even-the PC's are acting as the little extra that tips the scale. if the Drow'll come out and engage in a massive battle against the elves they will lose-but not before taking a sizeable chunck out of the elven army. that's an option to be avoided.
last among my claims is that the force that enterd the Echo wasn't the enture Drow army, only those that were in the acdamy went inside (which are some dozens of soldiers and the high command). if you want' reenforce the PC's with twenty-theirty elven troops, and then entering the portal will be a logical decision made to save to suprior commandrs with a reasonble force. then, run them into a large ambush of blast shadows and Drow that guards the entrance, so that their numbers will probably dwindle, but the PC's will be unable to go back-and so the problem is solved.
My point with Plane Shift is that, as a fifth level cleric spell, the party might not have access to it yet. That makes the decision to enter a strange demi-plane with no guaranteed way to get out of the demi-plane--with 60-80 percent of their resources gone--that much less likely.And no, Noveliss cannot summon a xill, which is a summon monster VI spell for two reasons:
1. Conjuration is a prohibited school for him.
2. He can't cast 6th level spells.
When you're right, you're right. At this point, the only way I can see Nolveniss having an escape option is to give him a scroll of Shadow Walk (Bard version), but that's adding something to the scenario not present.
if you want' reenforce the PC's with twenty-theirty elven troops, and then entering the portal will be a logical decision made to save to suprior commandrs with a reasonble force. then, run them into a large ambush of blast shadows and Drow that guards the entrance, so that their numbers will probably dwindle, but the PC's will be unable to go back-and so the problem is solved.
Yeah, I'd recommend that DMs keep the portal on the blink until the PCs can get some backup.
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long story short, this question harks back to the age-old question:
Why do the PC's put themselves in overwhelmingly dangerous situations, generally without any good reason beyond "adventure".
If your PC's (and by extension you players) are not the "jump first" kind of people, enjoy the siege, have your huge battle at the end, and expect the boss-dude to escape from the battle.
-t
If your PC's (and by extension you players) are not the "jump first" kind of people, enjoy the siege, have your huge battle at the end, and expect the boss-dude to escape from the battle.
-t
It's going to be a major-league pain in the ass to run. D&D handles mass combat poorly.
I think my player is likely to reckon the same as roguerogue's, and I figure I'm going to have to change the situation significantly. I'm not that keen on the elves-versus-drow war situation anyway, because I fear my player will organize the elves into an effective strategy and then we're back at mass combat. I'm more likely to try to recast it as a spying mission--get the info and get out, don't try to beat the drow. Then slipping through the portal could make sense.
There's a difficult design problem here. One of the first things any D&D party learns is "Don't split your forces." I've done enough mass combat to know that this scales up to fairly large groups: it's still better to keep together, barring a small number of specific spells in play (not a problem here). But if the NPCs do that, you get mass combat--yucch. So they have to split up and allow a lot of skirmishing. But if the players think very much about this, it starts to look like they're doing it purely so the PCs can do their thing, and it's very artificial.
I don't have a solution, so I'm going to try to sidestep by not having the PCs centrally involved in the military action.
I find #3 disappointing because the Echo, which should be the centerpiece, seems less developed than the skirmish war in the city; but I don't think the skirmish war will play well with my group. Still, it's a fixable problem.
Mary
Doesn't the adventure say that the wielder of the key returns to the city whereever he is in the armageddon echo? If so, all of this talk of besieging the portal is moot.
long story short, this question harks back to the age-old question:
Why do the PC's put themselves in overwhelmingly dangerous situations, generally without any good reason beyond "adventure".
No, not really. I don't know about your players, but most PCs I have seen have good reasons to throw themselves into a danger. Money. Power. Fame. Saving the city/country/world. Being pissed off by BBEG. None of them remotely applies here (as far as PCs can tell, drow aren't going anywhere). Then add the fact that to anyone who has no idea how exactly dumb this adventure forces drow to behave this plan looks like a highly-probable suicide and only the most unfalteringly good and righteous PCs (and do you remember, that such PCs are eminently unsuited for the fist installment of this AP?) would even consider jumping into the portal.
There's a difficult design problem here. One of the first things any D&D party learns is "Don't split your forces." I've done enough mass combat to know that this scales up to fairly large groups: it's still better to keep together, barring a small number of specific spells in play (not a problem here). But if the NPCs do that, you get mass combat--yucch. So they have to split up and allow a lot of skirmishing. But if the players think very much about this, it starts to look like they're doing it purely so the PCs can do their thing, and it's very artificial.
I don't have a solution, so I'm going to try to sidestep by not having the PCs centrally involved in the military action.
You can always present a battle as a background, without rolling anything for people who aren't immediately involved in fighting with PCs.
Look, Roguerouge is right to a degree. Running through the gate after getting pretty beat up is a touch decision. That's why it is an *awesome* moment in the campaign. Do you really want to run in there, into the "ARMAGEDDON ECHO", worn down and beat up?
Quite a choice.
And if they choose not to, even if you describe what they can see on the other side (probably through some distortion), then the module tells you how you can work it.
If they choose *to* do it, they can be quite proud of themselves.
Fortunately...
I can understand and appreciate avoiding too many orders from on high. But without them, you have to have a really good emotional hook. I really think DMs will have to create a much better relationship between the PCs and the POWs than the adventure really gives them.
... my most impulsive PC's dad just happens to be Kaerishiel.
Side note to the topic of summoning a Xill for planeshifting ability:
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.
If your players aren't feeling the urgency of rescuing the POWs, there's a simple way to get your players to charge in. Have the elven leader tell them they're not good enough for this job. He'll send his troops in instead. Have him play up they've mostly been lucky so far, and that they probably couldn't handle it. Throw in some mention that it's bad enough that priceless elven artifacts fell into the hands of drow, that he would rather not have them be owned by these uncouth heroes.
If your players are anything like mine, this affront to their honor, after dealing with arrogant elves for the whole module, will have them rushing in in no time. Mention of "priceless" will draw in those mercenary heroes.
It's a sad comment that the only emotional reactions my players have towards NPCs is hate, resentment or contempt. :D
My PCs were too beat up to go through the portal, and they let it close (they had 2 dead PCs to deal with anyhow).
However, one of the party is a cyphermage, so I'm thinking that by analyzing the portal and making some knowledge arcana checks, I will give her the chance to find the figure out the missing piece of the puzzle needed to open the gate (ie the portal key), and recreate a rune that simulates the effects of the key. It will only be potent enough to the open the portal for a brief second, and it won't reset the echo, but it will give the heroes just enough time to leap through and continue the adventure, as I don't think I really want to do the mass battle thing, and I want the PCs the chance to explore the Echo.
In our game, we didn't know that the Armageddon Echo was actually a portal. We didn't really know what it was, so when it came down to attacking the art academy, we were actually quite surprised to see a closing portal. We had to make a quick time decision and either jump through it or leave it alone.
At this point the party only knew that the Drow had apparently gone through a portal leading to someplace we didn't know. You might be able to assume that it was the Armageddon Echo but with a name like that you would have imagined something more than a portal. Still, the most likely option was some sort of retreat.
Our party consisting of plentiful people that liked to kill things decided to finish off the Drow that escaped and retrieve what information we could. That was more than enough to get us through.
Like many other people, I think you're assuming the party knows a lot about the AE. We barely knew what it was until we actually went into the portal and saw the events of Earthfall happening, then we were all like "Oh! That makes sense..."
The Elves and players know that the portal leads somewhere but we don't know if the Drow are actually retreating or doing something else. There's plenty of reason for the PCs to act as a sort of scouting party in this case. The elves know that the party was going to the academy, and the lack of human and dwarven bodies would pretty much allow them to assume that they may have pursued the Drow through the open portal, as when we returned at least our Elven companions had pretty much done what has been said by roguerouge and created a perimeter.
Has anyone thought of simply having the drow take someone the players DO care about into the Echo?
I'm going to run AE as a side trek between ROTR Skinsaw and Hook Mountain (slow XP path).
So, they already have a strong connection to Shelelu (she's going to recruit them to help stop the drow...and one of the PCs has the Celwynvian trait).
So, if she gets kidnapped, at least 3 of the PCs alread have a reason to go after her...
In a straight SD campaign, just pick another NPC to be valuable to the party (or have Shelelu show up in Riddleport to be a favorable NPC)
Has anyone thought of simply having the drow take someone the players DO care about into the Echo?
I've been doing this in my campaign. In my "Children of the Void," the drow escaped from Devil's Elbow in the ship the PCs had left Samaritha and the Cyphermages on, so they've been on her trail all the way to Celwynvian and will be sure to see her dragged through the portal into the Echo.