Wizards pulled the plug on DDM with little or no warning to its players, canceling future product releases and, frankly, causing some financial hardship for a friend of mine who resells DDM singles.
4E is not protected by something like the OGL. If WotC has already shown that it can and will cancel games without warning, what does that say for the future of the D&D brand (and 4E)?
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Wizards pulled the plug on DDM with little or no warning to its players, canceling future product releases and, frankly, causing some financial hardship for a friend of mine who resells DDM singles.
4E is not protected by something like the OGL. If WotC has already shown that it can and will cancel games without warning, what does that say for the future of the D&D brand (and 4E)?
Quite obviously, the answer lies in your question : nothing.
Except the continued buying of the line by its fans. But that may not be enough still.
And possibly income coming from related products, such as video games. Or from licenses. Diablo III is coming soon, maybe there will be Diablo III D&D products, like there were for Diablo II...
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I suppose nothing that you don't already know. Less products, less employees, less profits and less to worry about, other than walking the dog and keeping the spouse happy.
I would also say that they will reinvent the "razzle dazzle" by firing a few key decision makers and then move ahead with something...new but tried and true.
As for 4E not being protected by the OGL? Oh save me from myself. Nothing is set in stone, and if it is, you can blast it off with high pressure hoses or "frickin' lasers".
It would be better to think of D&D as a car. You drive it for awhile and then ask yourself if a new smell would be better than the old mildewy one. If the answer is "yes", you sell the car.
And yea, it is possible that the car will end up in a back alley with no tires and bums napping in it next to burning garbage cans.
I have no trouble forgetting D&D and calling it Pathfinder. No trouble at all.
It is a shame about the minis though. I thought 4th Edition was made to use the minis more. Right? Unfortunately, the new theme of 4th Edition introduced some new creatures and characters that I wanted nothing to do with. The minis were also converted to this theme in everyway. And there, I cannot justify collecting something that invalidates my previous collection.
I really believe WotC overestimated (perhaps under) the buyers of their products. I am almost 40 now, and I have the cash to bank roll a lot of rpg products. However, as an adult I have to answer directly to my wife for these expenditures. I cannot keep my marriage together by ditching all this 3.x crap (a massive bookcase of untapped D&D) and start anew under WotCs idea of what I should be doing. As a D&D customer, they completely lost me. They aren't looking back, and that means I can't either.
Funny, I had to ask myself, "If they totally started cranking out 3.5 again would I buy it?"
Answer: Yes, I would jump right back into bed with them.
Cheers,
Zux
Wizards pulled the plug on DDM with little or no warning to its players, canceling future product releases and, frankly, causing some financial hardship for a friend of mine who resells DDM singles.
As others have said, nothing. But this is nothing new -- D&D has always been, and always will be, a product to make money from. If it doesn't do that, it'll be cancelled or sold.
4E is not protected by something like the OGL.
Neither were previous versions.
The status of supplements by third-party publishers are a different story, however.
Wizards pulled the plug on DDM with little or no warning to its players, canceling future product releases and, frankly, causing some financial hardship for a friend of mine who resells DDM singles.
4E is not protected by something like the OGL. If WotC has already shown that it can and will cancel games without warning, what does that say for the future of the D&D brand (and 4E)?
What's to stop White Wolf from suddenly not supporting Exalted, or the Vampire card game? or Green Ronin, Mutants and Masterminds? or West End Games, the d6 system? or Palladium, say Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? or FASA Shadowrun, Battletech, or Earthdawn?
For that matter, what's to stop any business from suddenly not supporting a product? Some go out of business, some are unable to maintain funds--look at the big banks and loan providers who just went under less than a month ago.
I think the OP contains a bit of fearmongering and some unreasonable expectations about how businesses work and expresses a large amount of entitlement-syndrome. Remember, Paizo could suddenly experience a capital shortfall and go under (I hope not!). If they suddenly stopped producing Pathfinder, wouldn't their world be just as "unprotected" as the DDM sets are?
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I'm sure that we have all gone through this before with a favorite game. The thing to remember is that WOTC pulling the plug on D&D would not spell the end of us playing it. Unless they send the game police to round up and burn every copy of the game in existance, we can still continue to enjoy playing it, with or without their support.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Even if I were playing 4e, I wouldn't worry about this for half a minute. The minis game is more easily replaced by a different, similar minis game at a future date. Starting and stopping D&D would be much more difficult. What you'd see first would be the products slowing to a trickle and the sale of associated divisions.
Unless they send the game police to round up and burn every copy of the game...
Well, this is Hasbro -- for all we know, such a clause may get written into the updated GSL :P
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Unless they send the game police to round up and burn every copy of the game...Well, this is Hasbro -- for all we know, such a clause may get written into the updated GSL :P
I guess that is true. When AEG stopped publishing Brave New World they pulled all the surplus copies out of the warehouse and burned them, or so I heard from some friends who work for them.
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I serious doubt WotC or Hasbro will pull the plug on D&D they will more than likely sell or lease the license to some other company. They will certainly pull the plug on any D&D sub-product that is loosing money. If the 4.0 forgotten realms tanks they will stop making more forgotten realms stuff, same reasons they stopped making stuff for Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, etc. It is a purely business decision not malice towards fans.
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Wizards pulled the plug on DDM with little or no warning to its players, canceling future product releases and, frankly, causing some financial hardship for a friend of mine who resells DDM singles.
4E is not protected by something like the OGL. If WotC has already shown that it can and will cancel games without warning, what does that say for the future of the D&D brand (and 4E)?
Basing future income on the collectivity of another company's product is a disaster waiting to happen. I don't mean to deride your friend but it would be more prudent if he invested into collectibles that don't rely on future products to provide them with value.
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WotC hasn't declared an end to D&D minis, only an end to randomized packs. Plenty of players wanted minis for their PCs, without having to go through umpteen packs of kobolds and bugbears to find that elf ranger they wanted. The same applied to GMs that wanted specific monsters for their game, rather than basing their game on whatever minis were in the packs they bought.
So this benefits the players of D&D and the GMs. Yep, selling singles from random packs will go away, but the FLGS will do great business with GMs that want hordes of critters to throw at their players.
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WotC has cancelled D&D Miniatures.
That product, a collectible, constructible miniatures game, is no longer going to be made, and WotC will not sponsor an organized play program for it.
WotC will still be selling miniatures.
A new product line of semi-randomized figures, with lower numbers of figures per set, and focused on use with the D&D game, is their new miniatures product.
Although there are similarities between the product lines, they are very different, and the changeover is significant.
Basing future income on the collectivity of another company's product is a disaster waiting to happen. I don't mean to deride your friend but it would be more prudent if he invested into collectibles that don't rely on future products to provide them with value.
Prudence and gaming don't always mix well. He pre-purchased several cases of Demonweb based on Wizards future map that laid out further DDM products and tournaments for 2009. Wizards then rescinded that map and canceled those products and tournaments.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Prudence and gaming don't always mix well. He pre-purchased several cases of Demonweb based on Wizards future map that laid out further DDM products and tournaments for 2009. Wizards then rescinded that map and canceled those products and tournaments.
Basing future income on the collectivity of another company's product is a disaster waiting to happen. I don't mean to deride your friend but it would be more prudent if he invested into collectibles that don't rely on future products to provide them with value.
Surely he gets his money back for anything he pre-ordered that is no longer coming out. And if the fanbase is big enough, there will still be people buying the minis. No one is saying that DDM skirmishers can't do unofficial tournaments, and if they do, demand for previous sets will be even higher.
If D&D goes through the same drop in the player base that DDM went through then WotC should pull the plug. If the product line isn't profitable then it should be dropped.
I am more concerned about the lack of warning. DDM had almost a years worth of announced products and as recently as a week before the cancellation was announced, there was new information and advertising being added to support the game.
If D&D is not profitable, then the business that is not profiting from it should drop it, sure, but I would like to think that there would be some warning before the drop.
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WotC just bagged the DDM game, they will still make some RPG mini's. It is a shame for those who enjoy DDM. I personally don't care. I already bought thousands of mini's and don't need many more. D&D is their flagship and I am sure it will drag on for a while longer. I don't care for the Card/Mini game that 4.0 has made it. Our gaming group has decided to move on with Pathfinder. Built along the line of 3.5 and with plenty of support material. The Pathfinder world is by far one of the best I have ever read in my 27 years of gaming. I am impressed and we will game on, with or without WotC's products.
I am more concerned about the lack of warning. DDM had almost a years worth of announced products and as recently as a week before the cancellation was announced, there was new information and advertising being added to support the game.
If D&D is not profitable, then the business that is not profiting from it should drop it, sure, but I would like to think that there would be some warning before the drop.
Sadly customers won't get that warning most of the time.
For example: This spring Black Industries released the Dark Heresy Warhammer 40,000 RPG and within two months had cancelled the line without warning. Only after this announcement did they decide to sell the line to a different company. And Dark Heresy sold out from what I understand!
WotC's cancellation of the old 2e settings for AD&D also came out of nowhere, as did their decision on the Alternity line and settings. Same with White Wolf when they re-wrote the world of darkness. Last Unicorn Games with Star Trek. Decipher with both Lord of the Rings and Star Trek.
I think you get my point. As much as you would hope that a company would give its fans warning of their future plans...sadly, we don't get that warning.
For all we know, the developers don't get any warning either until some bean counter comes down and says "Quit working on product X. We are cancelling the line as it is not as profitable as we think it should be."
As much as I like Paiso, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future they cancel the Pathfinder line without warning. I hope this won't be the case, but it's just business, and if a product isn't profitable a company can not continue supporting it.
Sorry, I've been out of the loop for a couple of months--however, miniatures are the one thing I still buy from WOTC...are you guys saying they are going to stop making minis? Does anyone have a link they could share?
If so, this sucks!
As much as I like Paiso, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future they cancel the Pathfinder line without warning. I hope this won't be the case, but it's just business, and if a product isn't profitable a company can not continue supporting it.
The difference here is that Paizo let his customers partizipate in the development of the Pathfinder line. By doing this they bind their customers tighter to the product.
So although nobody can say if the product line will be successful, i don´t think that Paizo would drop Pathfinder without warning or without partizipating it´s customers (e.g. by releasing an incomplete version for free)
What does DDM stand for? Is this a referance to the miniatures game they developed with the Miniatures Handbook or what?
Eileen- Dungeons(and)Dragons Miniatures -DDM
Kelvar- they will still be making miniatures, but the format of the packs is changing and they will be geared more towards the RPG. The skirmish game will no longer be supported.
Eileen- Dungeons(and)Dragons Miniatures -DDM
Kelvar- they will still be making miniatures, but the format of the packs is changing and they will be geared more towards the RPG. The skirmish game will no longer be supported.
Ok, silly me! Thanks!
Sadly customers won't get that warning most of the time.
For example: This spring Black Industries released the Dark Heresy Warhammer 40,000 RPG and within two months had cancelled the line without warning. Only after this announcement did they decide to sell the line to a different company. And Dark Heresy sold out from what I understand!
WotC's cancellation of the old 2e settings for AD&D also came out of nowhere, as did their decision on the Alternity line and settings. Same with White Wolf when they re-wrote the world of darkness. Last Unicorn Games with Star Trek. Decipher with both Lord of the Rings and Star Trek.
I think you get my point. As much as you would hope that a company would give its fans warning of their future plans...sadly, we don't get that warning.
For all we know, the developers don't get any warning either until some bean counter comes down and says "Quit working on product X. We are cancelling the line as it is not as profitable as we think it should be."
As much as I like Paiso, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future they cancel the Pathfinder line without warning. I hope this won't be the case, but it's just business, and if a product isn't profitable a company can not continue supporting it.
White Wolf gave a full year's warning when they were re-booting the World of Darkness.
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Actually, give that the promo campaign of Demonweb expansion and the re-make of older sets for DDM 2.0 were in a full swing when the news on DDM game cancellation arrived - I believe it was a case of:
"Uhm guys, sorry about that but the miniatures game is getting the axe. Yes, we know you were deep in work on it but hey, shareholders rule this party. So now please, explain nicely to the customer base that the organized play is dead and yeah, that expansion pack you are about to ship is pretty much worthless. Cheers !"
I think Scott Rouse has one of the most stinking jobs ever - all the poor guy does is bringing bad news to the people ;)
Eileen- Dungeons(and)Dragons Miniatures -DDM
Kelvar- they will still be making miniatures, but the format of the packs is changing and they will be geared more towards the RPG. The skirmish game will no longer be supported.
Whew! Okay, thanks for the heads up! I was nervous for a while there! I really enjoy collecting the miniatures and I'd be disappointed if they stopped making them. I like Reaper's Legendary Encounters line, too, but it is growing very slowly over there.
Thanks again!
So sales dropped? Figures. They followed the quality of the product line.
I stopped buying a year ago or so, and I was a heavy buyer. I'm sure they chased off other customers, too. You reap what you sow and all that.
And what would stop them from pulling the 4e-plug like that? Well, nothing. If it doesn't sell, they pull. Could happen tomorrow. Of course, they could also determine that some of their sales are cannibalised by third party publishers, and pull their plugs first, and see if that boosts sales.
So sales dropped? Figures. They followed the quality of the product line.
I stopped buying a year ago or so, and I was a heavy buyer. I'm sure they chased off other customers, too. You reap what you sow and all that.
I also stopped buying when it was clear the quality of the miniatures had declined from previous sets. I'm two sets behind. I'm an avid miniature collector of both plastics and metals, but there's a certain standard of quality I will not lower myself to. With some of the better earlier sets, I had thought plastics were approaching the LOD that metals achieve, but then something happened and they went back to being blobs. Someone in QA needs to have a larger voice and pull with the company.
I'm still thinking of buying into the newer sets, but only for the monsters. Most of the character models are crap, and don't hold a candle to the LOD that metals provide character minis other than you can throw them at people and they won't hurt as much.
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D&D could suffer the same fate, though it's unlikely.
What it tells me is that when you lower the standards below the customers' expectations you pay the price with lesser returns. Your product becomes worthless in the customer's eye, and this eye is ALL that matters. I wish they would learn from that. They could, if Hasbro wasn't itself pushing for greater returns (and thus a concentration of effective brands) from its subsidiary in the background.
I must live under a rock sometimes.
I thought D&D miniatures were primarity purchased by most people for the D&D RPG.
I never thought the DDM Skirmish game was a big deal. Read the rules but never played it.
When WotC announced that they would still make miniatures but they would no longer support the skirmish game. I was very indifferent and even happy because of the boosters being just monsters and PCs being non random. What a great change.
I just thought DDM went the way of Spellfire and Dragon Dice.
Im very shocked by the amount of outrage.
Like I said....Under a rock.
Anyway to answer your question. If 4th edition sales are doing poorly WotC wont let on to this fact at all. They will just up and announce a cancelation. It will happen just like this if it does.
Maybe years later of no D&D 5th edition will be unveiled by WotC or another company will take D&D off their hands and release it.
As a matter of fact...thats what I expect to happen.
(But then again there's that whole under a rock thing)
With some of the better earlier sets, I had thought plastics were approaching the LOD that metals achieve, but then something happened and they went back to being blobs.
I think I know what happened: The guy in charge was replaced. That happened between Underdark and Wardrums. Underdark was the best set they did, but after that, Schubert was put in control of the line, and the line went downhill, starting in the very next set when the quality of the paint jobs was reduced trastically - but not in the figures they showed us: Those still were nice enough. But the stuff you actually got was almost monochrome. Seriously: some promo pics had minis with 6 colours or so, and the actual product had 2 or 3.
Only after a general outrage did they admit that something went wrong there - and started showing the crappier pics, because they said they couldn't deliver the better quality in the final products any more.
I must live under a rock sometimes.
I thought D&D miniatures were primarity purchased by most people for the D&D RPG.
I never thought the DDM Skirmish game was a big deal. Read the rules but never played it.
When WotC announced that they would still make miniatures but they would no longer support the skirmish game. I was very indifferent and even happy because of the boosters being just monsters and PCs being non random. What a great change.
It's not just the loss of the Skirmish game (though I liked that, too. Couldn't play in any tourneys, though, because they pretty much left my country, if not my continent, out in the rain in matters of product support).
It's the fact that the prices went way up. Compared to the last prices I paid, they increased by 100% per figure. And I don't believe for a second that the quality will go anywhere but further down....
Anyway to answer your question. If 4th edition sales are doing poorly WotC wont let on to this fact at all. They will just up and announce a cancelation. It will happen just like this if it does.Maybe years later of no D&D 5th edition will be unveiled by WotC or another company will take D&D off their hands and release it.
As a matter of fact...thats what I expect to happen.
(But then again there's that whole under a rock thing)
I don't know whether D&D would be sold again, but one can hope. The game needs to get into better hands again if you ask me.
Maybe the combination of wotc dragging the game down and the rising prominence of WoW will mean that the game will be cheap enough for Paizo to buy it. Wouldn't that be something?
I think I know what happened: The guy in charge was replaced. That happened between Underdark and Wardrums. Underdark was the best set they did, but after that, Schubert was put in control of the line, and the line went downhill, starting in the very next set when the quality of the paint jobs was reduced trastically - but not in the figures they showed us: Those still were nice enough. But the stuff you actually got was almost monochrome. Seriously: some promo pics had minis with 6 colours or so, and the actual product had 2 or 3.
Only after a general outrage did they admit that something went wrong there - and started showing the crappier pics, because they said they couldn't deliver the better quality in the final products any more.
Wow. Talk about deceptive marketing. Carrot dangling at its finest, only the carrot is plastic.
I've always wondered what makes a company replace a guy that's proven to deliver quality for the guy that doesn't when you know it will have to have an effect on the line, which hurts the entire company. Shortsightedness.
I've always wondered what makes a company replace a guy that's proven to deliver quality for the guy that doesn't when you know it will have to have an effect on the line, which hurts the entire company. Shortsightedness.
Profit Margins & Greed. (i.e. Guy A will cost less to employ than Guy B, so replace B with A.)
Replacing "trouble-makers" with "yes-men".
"Rightsizing".
Just to name a few.
I've always wondered what makes a company replace a guy that's proven to deliver quality for the guy that doesn't when you know it will have to have an effect on the line, which hurts the entire company. Shortsightedness.
Yep.
In hindsight, these decisions can seem profoundly stupid. What WotC did was replace an ailing product line with crappier products. How, exactly, did they think that would increase customer demand?
In hindsight, these decisions can seem profoundly stupid. What WotC did was replace an ailing product line with crappier products. How, exactly, did they think that would increase customer demand?
I have no idea, but one has to wonder about the motives of any company that replaces someone who has proven to be a valuable asset to the company in favor of someone they *hope* improves the company for less money. Isn't that a bit like spending less on the lottery but expecting your odds of winning to go up?
As with many, many things in life, you truly do get what you pay for.
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There are plenty of reasons why this might have happened but blaming Steven Shubert (or any individual) could well be wide of the mark. After all, WotC outsources the production of these things to China, and painting the minis is a skilled job. The company in China may have problems holding on to skilled artists and increasing production costs (the price of oil, labour, and so on) might mean that producing within the allocated cost might be more difficult (over the period we are talking about, the cost of oil rocketed and Chinese labour is nothing like as cheap as it was several years ago). You guys really need to start getting more of a grip on how business works before you start implying things about individuals. WotC is a profit-maximising entity, not a charity to provide you with whatever D&D materials you want of the highest possible quality while charging you next to nothing. WotC's marketing has been odd, to say the least, over the last year or so. But the conspiracy theories are getting a little old.
There are plenty of reasons why this might have happened but blaming Steven Shubert (or any individual) could well be wide of the mark. After all, WotC outsources the production of these things to China, and painting the minis is a skilled job. The company in China may have problems holding on to skilled artists and increasing production costs (the price of oil, labour, and so on) might mean that producing within the allocated cost might be more difficult (over the period we are talking about, the cost of oil rocketed and Chinese labour is nothing like as cheap as it was several years ago). You guys really need to start getting more of a grip on how business works before you start implying things about individuals. WotC is a profit-maximising entity, not a charity to provide you with whatever D&D materials you want of the highest possible quality while charging you next to nothing. WotC's marketing has been odd, to say the least, over the last year or so. But the conspiracy theories are getting a little old.
This also goes to the original question asked in this thread.
If, in the unlikely event that D&D fails to make money (or just "break even" in the current environment), then WoTC would likely cut the product line(s) and it would be the right thing for them to do.
WoTC is not a "public trust," it is a business enterprise.
This also goes to the original question asked in this thread.If, in the unlikely event that D&D fails to make money (or just "break even" in the current environment), then WoTC would likely cut the product line(s) and it would be the right thing for them to do.
WoTC is not a "public trust," it is a business enterprise.
Customer relations is part of what a business enterprise does.
...But the conspiracy theories are getting a little old.
They aren't conspiracy theories, they are incompetence theories -- there's a difference :)
And complaining never gets old...
Customer relations is part of what a business enterprise does.
Not all of them :/
Of course it's a business. The typical response to product criticism is that it's a business, and that it's in business to make money, as if that were some kind of epiphany. When all is said and done, the last few lines have been significantly below the standard they established themselves, so it really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that collectors notice subtle things like declining quality over time and question a company's commitment to staff or procedures that have clearly changed somewhere down the line.