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How do DMs generally handle this? In Escape from Old Korvosa, the players encountered a mob on the way and used a Minor Illusion of otyughs running out of an alley to distract them enough to run by. When they came to the second one, Laori got impatient and just flame striked the lot, the rest being finished off by the group. They heard more mobs heading their way, so their local Illusionist cast an Invisibility Sphere to avoid the (two) mobs heading to check out where that giant gout of flame came from.
However, while I gave XP for the first two mobs, I neglected to give out XP for the second two. While I still think they deserve some XP for being creative in bypassing them, I am having a hard time justifying all of it, especially when they already seem ahead in XP as it is (with five players). Here are the two comments, one by my player, and my own thoughts. Any assistance or suggestions are appreciated.
Wizard Player
One other thing I noticed on the XP thread: on the way to see the 'emperor' we encountered two groups and got XP for that but not for all the fights we bypassed with invisibility. In other words, we didn't come face to face with them, so we didn't get XP. Is this always going to be the case? If so, Illusion is even less powerful; not only does it not have as many direct effects on battle, but we get less XP by using the school as it's intended. This case is especially irksome because the first encounter only cost me a Minor Image, a second level spell, but all those encounters we bypassed used an Invisibility Sphere, a third level spell, and there was no reward. Does this seem strange to anyone else?
DM
I have added the XP for now, but am still thinking about if it should go there. It wasn't a matter of invisibility being used to 'overcome' an encounter, it was using it to skirt the encounter entirely. I may be wrong, but I see a difference in using Invisibility to get through a room that some people are guarding, as opposed to using it to travel through a hostile area. I do think some experience is deserved, but I am not sure it should be the entire amount you would have gotten for fighting them.
If a wizard uses an Invisibility spell and walks around a bunch of high level fighters (perhaps with low Perception), should he get the same amount of XP as if he had actually fought them all? If they were in a room and he had to skirt over them, be creative to get through the doors, make Stealth checks while being very close, then sure? What about travelling overland? If you pass by a monster scouting a couple blocks from you and it doesn't notice you, should experience be given?
With the encounter in Korvosa, it sounded like you guys wanted to use the Sphere and then still try to avoid the oncoming mobs if you could. Though as it is a street, you can basically stand off to one side and just let them run by you.
I understand that Illusions would be less powerful if you still didn't get experience for overcoming challenges, and I have been giving out exp for 'alternative' means of overcoming challenges in the past. However, I also don't want a single 3rd level spell to become an 'insta xp' spell, as there are a lot of things with low enough perception. In this case, I think I might need to give out a variant XP reward, as it still deserves one, but I am not sure on 100%.
As an example, when Sil went into the Hospice by himself and scouted around, do you think I should have given out experience as if he had overcome that whole floor?
His character is Sil(vanus), by the way, if it was unclear.
It sounds like it will be more fun for your players if they can use their abilities to their fullest without having to worry about whether or not they'll be losing experience points for doing so.
How ahead in experience are they? Will this self-correct if you plough ahead through the path quickly enough? With five of them they should soon even out, shouldn't they?
I try to look generous, no matter how mean I'm being. :D The players enjoy it more, and it means I can get away with stuff when I really need to. Ultimately, the game is all about what's going to be fun for everybody, and in this case I think that this means that they can use all of their abilities tactically and be rewarded for it, regardless of rules technicalities.
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With experience, I always (we use a forum and threads to track a lot of things) post a thread for that week's game along with the everything that awarded xp and how much they got. Not for individual things, but if they fought off a large group of mixed things, I just say 'you get X xp'. I like the open-ness with this, so there's no way for me to really 'hide' xp grants.
As for how they are doing, they seem pretty far ahead. I calculated that they could easily get to midway between level 10 and 11 by the end of this (if they did everything at the Arkonas) and their are five of them. The adventure says that the players should just be hitting level 10 by the end, and that's with four players. With other adventures, they've been around an expected xp level of 0.5-1 levels below the 'recommended' finish level, which seemed fine since there was 5 of them. As they are now far ahead though, I am beginning to worry that things will get too easy.
I'm probably worrying over nothing. The upcoming horrific Zon Kuthon style Castle looks sufficiently devastating.
May I suggest that perhaps your players are privy to to much knowledge on how the xp is broken down for the session. If they just got their total at the end of the day and not a spread sheet style breakdown of the hows and whys they would not know if you modified the xp for an encounter based on how it was well....encountered. Ignorance is bliss.
This kind of bookkeeping is why I much prefer replacing the XP system with just having the DM periodically say: "You all went up a level. Congratulations!"
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Without the awesome colors and formatting that my site lets me do, this is what the experience looks like after every session when I throw it up. If the numbers look off, I use Pathfinder Beta to calculate them with the Fast XP track (which should still be a bit slower than the 3.5 XP track, at least, I thought it was). I prefer being open with the numbers, and it hasn't caused an issue in the past. Though maybe migrating to not showing them is the right thing to do, I dunno. It seems more like a fault of the system if I have to do that.
Session Nine (10/25/08)
Korvosa - Old Korvosa - The Artist's Lair
Dealt with Laori Vaus peacefully and entered into an alliance with her: 9,600
Defeated the disgusting otyughs: 3,600
Sub Total: 13,200
Korvosa - Old Korvosa - Old Dock Streets
Sent the first mob running with illusory otyughs: 4,800
Turned the second mob into barbecue: 4,800
Avoided the final two mobs through use of illusions: 9,600
Sub Total: 19,200
Korvosa - Old Korvosa - Pilt's Palace
Beat the Shinglesnipes at Blood Pig: 6,400
Fought the Emperor's Captains, his gnome executioner, and put an end to the fleeing "Emperor" Pilts Swastel: 38,400
Killed the four brutish chokers: 4,800
Rescued Salvator Scream and learned all he knew about Neolandus and Vencarlo: 4,800
Sub Total: 54,400
Total Experience: 86,800
Per-Player Experience: 17,360
Experience from previous adventures:
(7) Aaron - 29,438
(7) Capziellys - 29,438
(7) Kail - 29,438
(7) Silvanus - 29,438
(7) Waydon - 29,438
New experience totals:
(8) Aaron - 46,798 - Level!
(8) Capziellys - 46,798 - Level!
(8) Kail - 46,798 - Level!
(8) Silvanus - 46,798 - Level!
(8) Waydon - 46,798 - Level!
Experience needed for 9th level: 50,000
With experience, I always (we use a forum and threads to track a lot of things) post a thread for that week's game along with the everything that awarded xp and how much they got. Not for individual things, but if they fought off a large group of mixed things, I just say 'you get X xp'. I like the open-ness with this, so there's no way for me to really 'hide' xp grants.
I'm sorry that I implied hiding a grant. What I meant to suggest was that you give them experience for encounters that they bypass using invisibility, because I think that this will be more fun for them. If you really need to rein in the rewards then you could skip an encounter or two.
As for how they are doing, they seem pretty far ahead.
Maybe we need to figure out why and deal with that, rather than worrying about giving them experience for what's in the module.
I'm probably worrying over nothing. The upcoming horrific Zon Kuthon style Castle looks sufficiently devastating.
There is much to what you say. It looks nasty, particularly the end boss. Having an extra level going into that a) is helpful and b) is no guarantee of having an extra level coming out of it.
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This kind of bookkeeping is why I much prefer replacing the XP system with just having the DM periodically say: "You all went up a level. Congratulations!"
This is my preference as well. XP for fighting has always lead to my players focusing on the grind and "not missing a room" instead of focus on their objective. Once we dropped the XP system entirely, my players became more comfortable cleverly bypassing the forest in Burnt Offerings, for example. They know that they might miss out on some treasure, but also trust that I'll throw in some extra gold later to try and get them back on track.
Also, they're weasely bastards, and I trust them to find weasely bastard ways to get some extra money here and there anyway :)
Players should be rewarded for the clever use of spells but if they do the same thing over and over again, it gets boring. I would have:
A) Not had the 2nd, 3rd, etc. mob even appear if they are automatically going to avoid it.
B) Or, I'd change up the mob encounter so that they wouldn't want to just go by it. Have the mob attacking poor helpless innocents. Replace the mob with a couple Otyughs (scent) on the rampage.
Lastly, with the APs, experience should be governed by where you are in the story. Don't be a slave to the math. Your players should accept "hey, we're too far ahead on XP for this part of the adventure, so no XP for the mobs".
I see the OPs point in a more open ended campaign were one gets into a situation of actually having to work out what happens when one uses invisibility or (even more annoying) wind walk to by pass encounters that are not even really meant to be an encounter. However in an AP it seems perfectly reasonable to give them XP for everything that they get past for which the AP rewards XP.
Your players could have slaughtered the mobs - of that I have no doubt - so denying them the XP here is simply forcing them into hack and slash mode. They are not using some trick to milk the AP out of more XP then was intended, but just using a trick to get the XP that they are supposed to be getting anyway. If they do get a level faster then expected then they'll earn significantly less XP from that point on - they are unlikely to get very far ahead in power level vis a vis the AP because the XP system won't let them.
Hence my suggestion is to give them their XP and move on - never short shift players their XP, it makes them all crazy.
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I agree with Jeremy here. I think the use has to be thought of in context before you can decide though. Skipping guards now that they will only have to fight on the way out = no XP because they will still have to deal with the encounter, but the mob example, they don't have to deal with it again, so I would give them at least some XP.
If you've been running the adventures as written, you can argue that the field marshal would have wanted them to protect the city, and lower the amount of XP (prolly only give 3/4 of what they would get for dispersing the mob)-but I would also do that for the brutal massacre mob as well if that is the case
You don't need to kill things to take their XP.
If you only give XP for killing things, then what you are saying to the enchanter, the illusionist, and the diviner is that their powers are a waste of time in your campaign. In addition, you're providing disincentives for creative play and giving incentives for blood lust. I can hardly think of a more damaging lesson to give players in this AP. And as a player it would drive me insane to realize that the rules had basically changed to unfairly nerf my character in favor of barbarians and evokers.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I totally agree with Roguerouge... Using stealth via skill or spell to circumvent an encounter is just as effective as fighting through it and deserves normal XP. It's the same as a Rogue disabling a trap or the Barbarian setting it off, either way the party gets XP.
--Vrock the Vote!!!
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I gave the experience out for it as it was an encounter the adventure took into account, so that point is moot. The question still somewhat remains. How far can the party be from an encounter to still get experience for it?
In this case, they avoided the encounter entirely by going invisible and going multiple blocks away. I was just curious on where DMs typically drew the line. What if a single PC went into a room, invisible, to scout it out? Then what happens if the PCs decide to ignore that room (and the creatures therein) and leave? Should they get experience still since one of them went inside and they 'overcame' the encounter?
What happens if they avoid a goblin by passing within a block of it? Two blocks? Five? A mile?
This was mostly just a thought on where the line gets drawn with experience and overcoming challenges by going far out of the way to avoid them. Is it still worth experience for fighting the giant if you see it from far off and move the other direction?
After all, we don't give experience out for 'fleeing'. In a way, isn't that what the group did initially? They went invisible then 'fled' the encounter. Granted, they still went towards the source, but they were far away from the two mobs when they passed.
I just find the whole matter interesting. :)
How far can the party be from an encounter to still get experience for it?
I'm facing something similar. My group consists of a bunch of nobles. They want to preserve the D&D stereotype of nobles with problems hiring adventurers to go deal with it, so it's completely in character for them to be far from a problem when it gets solved.
The way that this works out in game is that the players get handed some iconics, who then go complete the mission and report back to the nobles. I give the PCs 3/4 of the experience points that they would have received if they'd been there in person. I figure that they've overcome a challenge in the way appropriate to their situation. (I don't give experience to the iconics; I just make them whatever level I decide.)
I discussed this with my players before settling on it. They're happy with it, and once in a while a more martial noble accompanies the iconics (and thus received full experience).
My thought was to find out what would be the most fun for the players and then figure out a way to make it happen.
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Creating a system like that could work, but it sounds like almost every situation is handled this way. I'm really just wondering about the occasional encounter that may be 'handled' in this fashion. 3/4 experience could work, but as some pointed out, it penalizes the illusionist.
As another metaphor, what the illusionist did was to use Invisibility Sphere to go safely around/through the mob area. What if the party saw a giant from a ways off and said 'we don't need to fight him, let's just use wind walk and go around'? Should they still get experience? :)
What if the party saw a giant from a ways off and said 'we don't need to fight him, let's just use wind walk and go around'? Should they still get experience? :)
Is that resolving the conflict? My group discovers the problems and solves them, but if a giant is terrorizing local peasantry then avoiding it doesn't count.
As another metaphor, what the illusionist did was to use Invisibility Sphere to go safely around/through the mob area. What if the party saw a giant from a ways off and said 'we don't need to fight him, let's just use wind walk and go around'? Should they still get experience? :)
I'd say it depends on whether it advances the story or not.
Just don't ask me to define "advances the story". :-)
I'm facing something similar. My group consists of a bunch of nobles. They want to preserve the D&D stereotype of nobles with problems hiring adventurers to go deal with it, so it's completely in character for them to be far from a problem when it gets solved.
You, sir, get applause! Bravo! Good DM!
You, sir, get applause! Bravo! Good DM!
Thanks! :D We're having a lot of fun, which is the main thing.
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How do DMs generally handle this? In Escape from Old Korvosa, the players encountered a mob on the way and used a Minor Illusion of otyughs running out of an alley to distract them enough to run by. When they came to the second one, Laori got impatient and just flame striked the lot, the rest being finished off by the group. They heard more mobs heading their way, so their local Illusionist cast an Invisibility Sphere to avoid the (two) mobs heading to check out where that giant gout of flame came from.
However, while I gave XP for the first two mobs, I neglected to give out XP for the second two. While I still think they deserve some XP for being creative in bypassing them, I am having a hard time justifying all of it, especially when they already seem ahead in XP as it is (with five players). Here are the two comments, one by my player, and my own thoughts. Any assistance or suggestions are appreciated.
As long as the party encountered the challenge and overcame it, they should get full xp IMO. Just because they didn't use violence to solve the problem doesn't mean they didn't overcome the challenge. I think the fact that they prevented needless deaths and evaded an encounter with skill and guile, rather than brute force, deserves praise.
Creating a system like that could work, but it sounds like almost every situation is handled this way. I'm really just wondering about the occasional encounter that may be 'handled' in this fashion. 3/4 experience could work, but as some pointed out, it penalizes the illusionist.
As another metaphor, what the illusionist did was to use Invisibility Sphere to go safely around/through the mob area. What if the party saw a giant from a ways off and said 'we don't need to fight him, let's just use wind walk and go around'? Should they still get experience? :)
Invisibility sphere? Full XP. Party resource was used, party would have paid the penalty for a failed move silently check. Same deal with the giant. They're taking advantage of the incapacity of the creature. This is much like using a cold iron long sword or switching to sonic.
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I think the distance still has a play. The party not only made use of the one 3rd level spell, but were two blocks away from the 'encounter' as they moved by, just to be safe. In the giant's case, I'm thinking about seeing one far off, then using invis sphere to move by it maybe even a half mile away.
Allowing xp in this case could even lead to very metagamey moments. What if the party goes to a very hostile area and just sneaks by everything with a low perception (granted, they won't know what, but maybe they have godlike sneaky mcsneakerson) then leave. Heck, even one of them could do it, just like a single rogue disarming a trap. One rogue gets an invis, sneaks by everything, and bam! Lot's of XP, virtually no risk.
I already dolled out the xp for this one encounter as it was leaning on the side of more planned and intended, but there needs to be a line somewhere.