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I would rather see a 'PrC' for Sorcerers that allows them to 'become' Wizards, and strike the Wizard from the game. This would show that arcane magic-use is an innate ability, but can be focused and streamlined with rote practise and application of logical formulae rather than through sheer force of personality/willpower.
I preferred, back when 3.0 first came out and the Dragon Disciple was not yet published, the notion that a Sorcerer was just someone who tapped into the powers of the arcane differently, and didn't *have to be* some sort of dragon-blooded / fiend-bound / fey-touched / aberrant-warped strangeling child. When someone could be a Sorcerer, from a long line of Sorcerers, not a single one of whom ever boinked a Succubus or got into a dubious relationship with a bi-curious Black Dragon.
Bloodlines are a neat idea, but tying them to Sorcerers both denies them to other classes (such as the Bard who has fey blood in her veins, or the Wizard whose family has long been pact-bound to the fiends of the pit, trading their loyalty for secret lore), and boxes the Sorcerer into some sort of weird half-blood state, suggesting that every single Sorcerer, whether Elf, Dwarf, Human, Halfling, Gnoll, Goblin or Lizardfolk, had an ancestor who humped the forbidden hump, and that none of those races, not even 'innately magical' races like Gnomes or Dark Elves, could tap the power of Sorcerer without getting all jiggy with something from a Hentai video.
Pushing Sorcerers further into that box (and closing that box entirely in the faces of Druids who might want a Fey bloodline or Paladins who might have a Celestial ancestor or Rogues who might have a family that has been touched by Undead, through ties to a Vampiric ancestor), IMO, limits options.
I really, really prefer the Sorcerer as a 'Wizard by other means,' and not a hybrid halfblood prince wannabe.
Some Sorcerers might regard Wizards with pity, forced to study and research to master the arts that come so naturally to them. Some Wizards might regard Sorcerers as undisciplined and dangerous loose cannons, unwilling to truly ever *know* their art, and limited to whatever limited spells just 'came to them.'
The Wizard, as of Pathfinder, is crawling with new class features because of the changes to Specialization (or the Universal Wizard, which is really kind of out there, IMO). Trying to make it more 'wizardly' as the OP is suggesting would lead to Loremaster-y abilities like Bardic Knowledge or linguistic abilities, which would make a lot of sense to be added to a Wizard class (perhaps even an Archivist like 'Dark Knowledge' skill that allows the wizard to share useful tactical information with his allies), but, as of the current Pathfinder situation, would be completely over-the-top and out-of-line, since the Wizard is already being heaped with a bunch of other stuff that might not be as thematic.
It's probably far too late to suggest this, but the Wizard and Sorcerer should, IMO, be stepped back a bit.
I love some of the Specialization stuff that Jason has come up with, but I suspect that the best parts of it should require Feat expenditures on the part of the Wizard (perhaps eating up his bonus feats, representing the sacrifice that he's making to 'specialize' in that school, and also eliminating the kludgy need to have a 'specialist' drop various other schools entirely, since he's paying a 'Feat Tax' instead). *IF* this is done, the Wizard can then also be justified being given some more 'wizardly' abilities, as the OP suggests, such as lore abilities or specialized uses of Knowledge skills. To borrow a very old notion, a Wizard could even call his 'lore / knowledge' idea Sage Advice.
I love some of the Bloodline stuff that Jason has come up with, but I strongly believe that they should also be made into Feats, and the Sorcerer class should get bonus Feats exactly like a Wizard, allowing them to master one of those Bloodlines, at the cost of not having free Metamagic / etc. feats (which would be a bonus over the current Sorcerer, who gets no bonus feats, and roughly equal to the Pathfinder Sorcerer, who gets free Bloodline powers, and, under this version, would get Feats, which he could use to buy those powers, or not, as he wishes, creating a far less 'pigeonholed' Sorcerer class, one that can be used to represent a character who is just innately capable of undisciplined magic use, but whose family tree doesn't include anything outside of his species...).
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Set,
I am somewhat confused by your quotation of my post and then your main thrust which seems to suggest that I was somehow boxing-in the Sorcerer.
Your line of thought inspired a completely tangental line of thought, so I just went and confused people, as I am wont to do. :)
I don't think that *you* are 'boxing in' the Sorcerer, so much as the entire Bloodline concept as a requirement for the Sorcerer (and not a set of feats that would be available to members of *any* class) was boxing in both the Sorcerer *and* everyone else.
The OPs thoughts about what defines a Wizard, what makes them seem 'wizardy,' such as their focus on book-learnin,' languages, etc. kind of high-lighted for me how such things, while cool, wouldn't really be able to be squeezed into the Pathfinder Wizard, which is already brimming with new features (thanks to the Universalist / Specialist stuff).
Ideally, to make the Wizard and Sorcerer more flexible, the Bloodline stuff *and* the Universalist / Specialist stuff should be divorced from class abilities and made into feats, allowing a Sorcerer to 'Specialize in Illusions' to a small extent (by taking some feats that give abilities similar to the current Pathfinder specialist abilities for an illusionist) and a Wizard to be descended from Fiends and have some Bloodline-related powers.
For this to happen, both Wizards *and* Sorcerers would need to have bonus Feats to use on these sorts of choices (no change for Wizards, who already have them, but a definite step up for 3.X Sorcerers).
By making this change, making the Sorcerer and the Wizards a bit more alike, at the chassis level, as you seem to be suggesting in the bit I quoted, the Wizard would be freed up to possibly have a more generalized bit of Wizardly focus, such as a class ability related to that knowledge / book-research / lore / language-related focus that you were talking about upthread.
Basically, part of what the OP said, about the Wizard's 'core' being more scholarly and research-oriented, combined with your comment about the Sorcerer and the Wizard kind of being two sides of a coin (something about one possibly turning into the other, in time, via a PrC), kind of inspired that line of rambling thought in my brain.
No contradiction of what you were saying was meant, even if I went all orthagonal on you...
I'm just whacky that way.
There's a lot of overlap here.. sorcerer has a clear concept and bloodlines build on it well, adding a lot of interest. Wizards however, despite having an underlying concept, don't build on it. For the sake of brainstorming ideas, here's some things I associate with wizards and not sorcerers:
- scrolls
- books
- intelligence (but no personality)
- knowledge
- studying
- creating items, or other great forms of crafting
You forgot to add one of the most important things to your list...
Wizards can cast pretty much any spell they want, if not specialized, and carry a book(s) of spells around with them that lets them pick and choose spells appropriate for each and every day, sometimes more than once a day if the party finds itself in dire straights.
Sorcerers are fun and can focus on a few different styles of play, but they are not designed to be the answer man. They lose that ability for gaining spontaenous casting, increased castings per day and limited number of spells known.
I'm alittle confused by your subject line in comparison to what you wrote, which seems to be something related to prestige classes and not wizard vs. sorcerer at all. Not trying to be nasty, just trying to understand.
I would rather see a 'PrC' for Sorcerers that allows them to 'become' Wizards, and strike the Wizard from the game.Brilliant, Kyrinn. That's the first time I've heard that suggestion, and it is a great one.
I do have a concern that there is no ability to "take away" from sorcerors to make up for the PrC ... and I wouldn't want to reduce their spells per day. So it might be hard to work, but it's a great idea. :D
As much as I like Sorcerers, I do not like the idea of removing Wizards. I think that is a step in the wrong direction. Besides Jason has already said multiple times they won't be adding or removing classes, in favor of backwards compatibility, for this I am happy. :)
I would rather see a 'PrC' for Sorcerers that allows them to 'become' Wizards, and strike the Wizard from the game.
Ever since 2E I have always been a fan of the Wizard concept, researching forbidden lore, ilogic mathematics, and earning your own power being a frail mortal yourself. Sorcerers can be fun, sure, and the current necromancer I play perhaps would be better off as a sorcerer given the degree of hack&slash in his concept, but the class has never called me somehow. I see no merit in just "being born special" (just my opinion).
I would kill the sorcerer in a heartbeat ever before I would a wizard.
I am very against getting rid of either. There is certainly room for both. I do think a concerted effort needs to be made to further differentiate them other than how they manipulate their spell list. The multiple threads suggesting a more melee/missle bent are my personal fave for a way to push the sorcerer. The Wizard is the scholarly caster who devotes his whole life to magic at the expense of the physical. The sorcerer is a natural who has the luxury of spare time to learn a sword, get a little excersize etc..