I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that the thaumaturgist is in the same category as the blackguard, which is to say "things that should be base classes".
That would be totally cool with me (as long as it's being done quickly so I can get my grubby big hands on it! :-D )!
To me a blackgaurd should be more then just an evil paladin. It should have it's own skills, and ability's , with it's own feel not just the paladin class with the serial numbers filed off
You won't see reigning happen at all, I suspect, until the Prestige Class portion of the Beta playtest comes up in a few weeks. For now... we're still in boundary pushing stage.
Oh, I get that. It was more of a general concern that I've not seen much reining in of the classes during the playtest of the individual classes, but more added class abilities.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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To me a blackgaurd should be more then just an evil paladin. It should have it's own skills, and ability's , with it's own feel not just the paladin class with the serial numbers filed off
I completely agree with this, though I think there should be certain stylistic and thematic similarities (or perhaps contrasts).
I completely agree with this, though I think there should be certain stylistic and thematic similarities (or perhaps contrasts).
I really liked using the Book of Fiends to build an Unholy Warrior of Cyric for my Forgotten Realms campaign, because I could make him into an actual unholy warrior of Cyric, and not just the opposite of a paladin.
I completely agree with this, though I think there should be certain stylistic and thematic similarities (or perhaps contrasts).
I think the theme should be there, however it should not be a paladin with every ability switched from LG to LE or something.
What I think and take it for just that, is they are
*Champions of evil
*Unholy warriors of Tyranny
*Oppressors of good
To me they scream LE more then CE and LE can be very evil indeed
Technically, this isn't the time, but...
The Eldritch Knight has Spell Critical, where he can cast a spell as a swift action when he confirms a critical hit. Devastating Blow (the name, I think) allows you to take a standard action to auto-crit an opponent. Do these abilities work in conjunction with one another as I think they do?
Technically, this isn't the time, but...
The Eldritch Knight has Spell Critical, where he can cast a spell as a swift action when he confirms a critical hit. Devastating Blow (the name, I think) allows you to take a standard action to auto-crit an opponent. Do these abilities work in conjunction with one another as I think they do?
I don't know that they would, since Devastating Blow says that special effects that are triggered on a critical, like burst weapons, don't go off when using Devastating Blow.
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Director of Games
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I don't know that they would, since Devastating Blow says that special effects that are triggered on a critical, like burst weapons, don't go off when using Devastating Blow.Technically, this isn't the time, but...
The Eldritch Knight has Spell Critical, where he can cast a spell as a swift action when he confirms a critical hit. Devastating Blow (the name, I think) allows you to take a standard action to auto-crit an opponent. Do these abilities work in conjunction with one another as I think they do?
Correct-o-Mundo
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Creative Director
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You won't see reigning happen at all, I suspect, until the Prestige Class portion of the Beta playtest comes up in a few weeks. For now... we're still in boundary pushing stage.Oh, I get that. It was more of a general concern that I've not seen much reining in of the classes during the playtest of the individual classes, but more added class abilities.
Well... to be honest, the actual "reigning in" won't happen until after the playtest is over, I suspect. We won't really have a good idea of where we've gone too far, as far as the playtest is concerned, until then.
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Creative Director
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What happened to the Thaumaturgist?
It has been used already in the adventure paths and would be very suitable for PCs and NPCs from Cheliax (I know the rules are meant to be world-generic, but if the Pathfinder Chronicler is in why not another PrC that's very Golarion appropriate?).As for the Dwarven Defender I wouldn't mind seeing a free for all defensive PrC - call it Stalwart Defender or something like that.
Has the thaumaturgist really been used? I'm not sure that it has. I know we've used the thaumaturge base class from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends a few times in Pathfinder, but that's a different class than the DMG prestige class.
Has the thaumaturgist really been used? I'm not sure that it has. I know we've used the thaumaturge base class from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends a few times in Pathfinder, but that's a different class than the DMG prestige class.
Wasn't that one basically a wizard that cast cleric spells?
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Creative Director
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Wasn't that one basically a wizard that cast cleric spells?
Has the thaumaturgist really been used? I'm not sure that it has. I know we've used the thaumaturge base class from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends a few times in Pathfinder, but that's a different class than the DMG prestige class.
Sort of... it's a demon-worshiping spellcaster who kind of blurs the line between wizard and cleric, and then gets some pretty creepy physical/mental transformation stuff as well as his growing devotion to the demonic starts to turn him into a demon as well.
He stands on his own more than a sorcerer does, I think.
I just checked the PrC's out, and the main thing that popped out:
why would any Draconic Bloodline Sorceror NOT PrC into Dragon Disciple?
it doesn't seem like they give up anything at all...
If there's no reason NOT to take the PrC,
I'm not sure why the Dragon Disciple isn't just folded into the Draconic Bloodline completely...?
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I just checked the PrC's out, and the main thing that popped out:
why would any Draconic Bloodline Sorceror NOT PrC into Dragon Disciple?
it doesn't seem like they give up anything at all...If there's no reason NOT to take the PrC,
I'm not sure why the Dragon Disciple isn't just folded into the Draconic Bloodline completely...?
3 levels of caster advancement. Access to 9th level spells, ever (unless Epic level rules ever come out).
But still, yeah, there's not a whole lot of reason not to take it in a game that won't ever go that high in level.
heh I have done been asked by a player if we could alter it for other bloodlines
Hey there all,
The Pathfinder Beta Playtest edition of the Prestige Class rules are now available. They can be found here as a 1.4 MB zip PDF. Please note that the playtest period for this document is not until November 24th. As such, if you need any questions or clarifications, please post them to this thread. However, please save your playtest comments and feedback until the appropriate forum is open.
Dragon Discipline:
What is a might dragon and how long is "a limited time"?
This class looks... awesome compared to previous. More comments to come.
Edit: I'm guessing it's Mighty Dragon and the Y got dropped somewhere. I assume the duration is the same as Form of the Dragon Spell? It should specify in the ability or just say use Form of Dragon once per day as an SLA.
Okay, I'm going through the PrC's now. I'll toss out my thoughts - for whatever they are worth.
Arcane Trickster:
Did you really mean to delay entering this class until 9th level? That is kind of harsh. Most PrC's can be started at 6th level - unless they have great power. And I don't see great power in the Trickster. (I'm not saying it isn't there, just clarifying my view.)
[3rd Level Arcane spells require a minimum of 5 levels, and +2D6 Sneak Attack requires another 3]
Duelist:
There could be a little clarification for what weapons can be used for attack special abilities. Is it a light weapon OR a one handed piercing weapon? Or is it a piercing weapon that is light or one handed?
Shadow Dancer:
Is Hide in Plain Sight really the First level ability? That means that a character can gain that at 6th level? Whereas the Ranger, supposedly the ultimate hunter, can't get it until 17th level?
That is what leaps out at me.
Ok, I know this isn't an errata thread but there isn't one yet. The Assassin table lists at level 1 "Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use, spells". Which is I believe incorrect now.
3 levels of caster advancement. Access to 9th level spells, ever (unless Epic level rules ever come out).
True, I overlooked that :-)
I also thought the Bloodline Bonus Spells were included in "Bloodline Powers", but re-reading Sorceror, and Dragon Disciple,I think you're NOT meant to gain the Bonus Spells, which DOES differentiate them some more.
Anyhow, it's hard to compare them until we see the changes to Sorceror.
But I like the general direction, and I could even see equivalent PrCs for the Aberrant Bloodline, Celestial, etc...
I must say, that I'm disappointed by these prestige classes.
1)The shadowdancer is not de-sucked. And by this I mean that it still has no abilities remotely worth taking after level 2. If your cornerstone ability is a downgraded version of Dimension Door, then something is wrong with you. And even if shadowjumping will be made worthwhile (say, by making it a move-equivalent action), shadowdancer still lacks punch. 1d6 Strength damage per round (at best) from its shadow don't even cut it at the beginning (if we enter this PrC as soon as possible) and by level 10+ CR 4 companion that screws its master when destroyed, is a sad joke.
2)The assasin sucks now. And by this I mean, that he lost its main point of attraction (spellcasting), without gaining anything, that can remotely match kick-ass talents of its big brother the rogue. SoD effect 1/day at 15th level and ability that is better than your vanilla sniping only in a very narrow set of circumstances is no replacement for a bunch of very decent buffs that the older version had. There is simply no reason to have an assassin in the party, when you can have a decent rogue instead.
3)The duelist is not de-sucked enough. Let's get real. One-handed, single weapon, Weapon Finess-based fighting is the absolutely worst combat style in DnD. The PrC that focuses on it must be way above average, to compensate for this deficiency and bring it, at least, on the level of humble fighter. The new duelist is not. At levels, where this PrC becomes available, the precise strike can easily be harder to pull off than the new sneak attack, while doing less damage. And the parry is not a good ability. Not only it forces you to risk your attacks (simply sacrifice them, before 5th level), it works poorly against enemies whose attacks you truly want to avoid, i.e., huge melee brutes.
4)The mystic theurge is not de-sucked enough. At least until 10th level, and probably even then. Giving rather minor bonuses to a an awful, trap PrC is not going to make it work.
5)The arcane archer still isn't "arcane". And still is burdened with taking a spellcaster level to qualify. And with a lot of worthless 1/day abilities.
6)I miss archmage, blackguard and hierofant. The archmage because of its abilities, others because of backwards compatibility issues (there are lots of blackguards in published modules).
7)I strongly dislike the reduction in saving throws across the board. In my opinion, save values are already too low at high leves (unless you want to delve into 3.5E supplements for ways to optmimize your saves), considering, that one failed save usually takes you out of battle.
8)On a brighter note, the new dragon disciple looks decent, if too tightly bound to a sorcerer bloodline.
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Notice that Good Saving Throw progressions have been changed. They now start with +1 instead of +2. I would actually recommend to apply this change to base classes too.
It still looks to me like a solution for a problem that no one has shown actually exists, in that I don't think that anyone has, in the discussions, actually produced a broken build based on class-dipping for saves. However, I don't care that much about it.
I must say, that I'm disappointed by these prestige classes.
3)The duelist is not de-sucked enough. Let's get real. One-handed, single weapon, Weapon Finess-based fighting is the absolutely worst combat style in DnD. The PrC that focuses on it must be way above average, to compensate for this deficiency and bring it, at least, on the level of humble fighter. The new duelist is not. At levels, where this PrC becomes available, the precise strike can easily be harder to pull off than the new sneak attack, while doing less damage. And the parry is not a good ability. Not only it forces you to risk your attacks (simply sacrifice them, before 5th level), it works poorly against enemies whose attacks you truly want to avoid, i.e., huge melee brutes.
Not only that, the precision damage won't affect undead and until and unless Pathfinder includes the expansion of criticals to 'most creatures' that James Jacobs was talking about in another thread, precise strike sort-of blows as you say (you give up a full attack with TWF, for example, unlike Sneak Attack, and it won't affect half the nasty stuff in the game and even if they expand crits, it explicitly won't affect undead as it only affects 'living creatures').
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Has the thaumaturgist really been used? I'm not sure that it has. I know we've used the thaumaturge base class from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends a few times in Pathfinder, but that's a different class than the DMG prestige class.
I think the Thaumaturgist is a great idea (uber-summoning/binding-dude), but it's badly executed. It's limited to divine casters, many of the levels are 'Meh' abilities, or are highly circumstantial. I'd love to see the concept of this class be redone, rather than patch the existing class.
Ok, I know this isn't an errata thread but there isn't one yet. The Assassin table lists at level 1 "Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use, spells". Which is I believe incorrect now.
Not to mention the fact that they propogated the error where the table says an assassin gets sneak attack at level 1, 3, 5,... and the text says he gets sneak attack at level 2, 4, 6,...
Has the thaumaturgist really been used?
I've seen it used a few times, at least in the Core Coliseum. It's not my cup of tea, though.
True, I overlooked that :-)
I also thought the Bloodline Bonus Spells were included in "Bloodline Powers", but re-reading Sorceror, and Dragon Disciple,
I think you're NOT meant to gain the Bonus Spells, which DOES differentiate them some more.
No, they do get the bonus spells known; they just don't get a bonus 2nd level spell known if they can't cast 2nd level spells (say).
I must say, that I'm disappointed by these prestige classes.
3)The duelist is not de-sucked enough. Let's get real. One-handed, single weapon, Weapon Finess-based fighting is the absolutely worst combat style in DnD. The PrC that focuses on it must be way above average, to compensate for this deficiency and bring it, at least, on the level of humble fighter. The new duelist is not. At levels, where this PrC becomes available, the precise strike can easily be harder to pull off than the new sneak attack, while doing less damage. And the parry is not a good ability. Not only it forces you to risk your attacks (simply sacrifice them, before 5th level), it works poorly against enemies whose attacks you truly want to avoid, i.e., huge melee brutes.
How is Precise Strike harder to pull off? I poke you - as long as you're living and not immune to crits, you take the extra damage. No flanking or flat-footed required. It deals 2 damage, critable, per 2 levels, vs. sneak attack 3.5 damage.
The incredible AC's a duelist can achieve is one of the major reasons this class works.
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How is Precise Strike harder to pull off? I poke you - as long as you're living and not immune to crits, you take the extra damage. No flanking or flat-footed required. It deals 2 damage, critable, per 2 levels, vs. sneak attack 3.5 damage.
On the down side, it doesn't work against a host of creatures (unless they do expand crits to cover nearly all creatures, which I hope they will; of course, that also empowers alternative meleers like the fighter, just to a slightly lesser extent to the tune of the precise strike damage) and it'll never work against undead, plus it limits you to only using one weapon and you can't even use a shield with it (sword and board minus board! I imagine that's what he means when he says 'harder to pull off', just that you lose too many other advantage to be able to use it). Also, the progression of precise strike is slooooow.
The incredible AC's a duelist can achieve is one of the major reasons this class works.
Isn't 'incredible' a bit strong? Although at least they can wear light armour now (but then, as they're probably dex-based, they'll pay for good armour that doesn't curb their Dex) but the Int+Dex AC bonus requires a fair investment in Int to be worthwhile (in addition to the aforementioned Dex, plus Con for hp and Strength for damage). Add to that the fact that you have to take Dodge and Mobility to get in and, although I like this more than the DMG version, I still don't think that it's good enough. At least parry isn't a CMB-based combat manoeuvre, I suppose...
Shadow Dancer:
Is Hide in Plain Sight really the First level ability? That means that a character can gain that at 6th level? Whereas the Ranger, supposedly the ultimate hunter, can't get it until 17th level?
I have to agree somewhat. A Ranger's hide in plain sight ability works when he is in natural terrain. A Shadow Dancer only needs to be within 10 feet of shadows.
It is ultimately a far more useful ability available at an earlier level. I am not sure what the impact of this will be, though.
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Liking the new PrCs very much. The loss of assassin spells makes a lot of sense to me, seeing as they aren't spellcasters, but death-dealers. You want some magic, make sure to take minor and major arcana rogue tricks, or whatever they are.
Pathfinder Chronicler feeling like an NPC PrC isn't a big deal, because 'Hey, guess what?' not every option needs to be usable by PCs. That, and I have a bard player who would love this class to death. The ability to influence people like he had given a performance, without having to do so? Gold to him.
My biggest love, though, goes to the Eldritch Knight. You took a bland class, and made it much more interesting than before. I actually like it now, and with the Arcane Armor Training feats, I would actually use it! As for getting 3 bonus feats, I think that's just fine. The abilities you now lose from the fighter mean you really aren't getting everything in one basket. Just a bit more of a nod to the Fighter side, which I think the class has needed since its inception. Really, what I see people doing with those feats is planning for the Focus and Specialization feats in their chosen weapon. Lastly, Spell Critical is three, quite possibly four, kinds of awesome. In a bag. Full of candy. And love.
The reason the precise strike progression is slow is because it's a flat always-a-certain-number damage bonus. Which I personally would rather have than the randomness of OMG Dice Bag! attacks. Might just be my 'I'm the Fighter, and I set the baseline' thinking getting to me though.
Is an Arcane Archer's arrow of death a death effect or does it function as a slaying arrow? If it is a death effect, a number of creatures are immune. If it fuctions as an slaying arrow, then creatures immune to death effects (such as undead) can still be affected.
Has the thaumaturgist really been used? I'm not sure that it has. I know we've used the thaumaturge base class from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends a few times in Pathfinder, but that's a different class than the DMG prestige class.What happened to the Thaumaturgist?
It has been used already in the adventure paths and would be very suitable for PCs and NPCs from Cheliax (I know the rules are meant to be world-generic, but if the Pathfinder Chronicler is in why not another PrC that's very Golarion appropriate?).As for the Dwarven Defender I wouldn't mind seeing a free for all defensive PrC - call it Stalwart Defender or something like that.
Shadowcount Sial in Pathfinder 10 "A History of Ashes" has 4 levels of Thaumaturgist.
I wouldn't mind seeing it expanded to a full summoning class that can surpass a cleric or druid in this area of expertise (including buffing summoned creatures). A class that isn't strictly an arcane or divine caster.I also find it funny that thaumaturgist basically means "one who practices magic or sorcery" and is just another word for "magician, necromancer, sorcerer, thaumaturge, wizard, occultist, enchanter, exorciser, exorcist, magus, sorceress or witch doctor."
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The reason the precise strike progression is slow is because it's a flat always-a-certain-number damage bonus. Which I personally would rather have than the randomness of OMG Dice Bag! attacks. Might just be my 'I'm the Fighter, and I set the baseline' thinking getting to me though.
I wouldn't mind so much if they expand the crits to most creatures (as sneak attack now has, thus re-establishing the sneak attack-crit link), as James Jacobs intimated in a thread a while back, and removed the requirement that the damage only works on living creatures (but then, I presume that concern about using piercing weapons against creatures with no organs is the issue; however, that can be addressed in the monster DR description). They are at least getting more precision damage now than they were in 3.5...
I actually liked the idea of a spellcasting assassin, largely because I could adapt it to fuction as a mystical version of the ninja. I typically changed up the spells to include spells such as water walk and arcane eye to better mimic the ninja legends or make them better spies.
Having said that, I can see a seperate prestige class for that purpose.
The incredible AC's a duelist can achieve is one of the major reasons this class works.Isn't 'incredible' a bit strong? Although at least they can wear light armour now (but then, as they're probably dex-based, they'll pay for good armour that doesn't curb their Dex) but the Int+Dex AC bonus requires a fair investment in Int to be worthwhile (in addition to the aforementioned Dex, plus Con for hp and Strength for damage). Add to that the fact that you have to take Dodge and Mobility to get in and, although I like this more than the DMG version, I still don't think that it's good enough. At least parry isn't a CMB-based combat manoeuvre, I suppose...
In 3.5, you also had Elaborate Parry (add class level to AC when fighting defensively), which stacked with Canny Defense. So a 10th level duelist with a 14 Int could fight defensively for -4 to atks and gain +14 to AC (+2 fighting defensively, +10 elaborate parry, +2 canny defense). Or +20 to AC with a +4 chain shirt (everything works except Canny Defense). Elaborate Parry got replaced by parry, which really could just be a feat (which it is in "Art of the Duel")... in fact, the whole PrC is screaming to me that it should just be a feat chain, but that's a different story.
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In 3.5, you also had Elaborate Parry (add class level to AC when fighting defensively), which stacked with Canny Defense. So a 10th level duelist with a 14 Int could fight defensively for -4 to atks, +14 to AC (+2 fighting defensively, +10 elaborate parry, +2 canny defense). Elaborate Parry got replaced by parry, which really could just be a feat (which it is in "Art of the Duel")... in fact, the whole PrC is screaming to me that it should just be a feat chain, but that's a different story.
Actually, it's still there - it's just called Elaborate Defense.
I personally would like an elaboration on why Archmage and Hierophant were dropped. I know Mr. Jacobs stated "...get high-level powers and abilities, unlike the 3.5 version which is only spells, really." Plenty of prestige classes provide high-level powers and abilities, so why have the Archmage and Hierophant been removed. Both classes provided what I would call powerful iconic abilities for arcane and divine casters that are not duplicated in the current PF rules.
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In 3.5, you also had Elaborate Parry (add class level to AC when fighting defensively), which stacked with Canny Defense. So a 10th level duelist with a 14 Int could fight defensively for -4 to atks and gain +14 to AC (+2 fighting defensively, +10 elaborate parry, +2 canny defense). Or +20 to AC with a +4 chain shirt (everything works except Canny Defense). Elaborate Parry got replaced by parry, which really could just be a feat (which it is in "Art of the Duel")... in fact, the whole PrC is screaming to me that it should just be a feat chain, but that's a different story.
But 'incredible', for a 16th-level character? Given that you have to limit yourself to attacking with one weapon to get the precision damage (which in 3.5 is only two dice at 10th level duellist and as you're presumably Dex-based, is a chain shirt a good idea at 16 Character levels? Celestial Armour would be better, I guess, for one less enhancement point) and you're taking a -2 to your attacks, it seems to me that the best you can achieve is survive a little longer if the enemy doesn't just ignore you.
My favourite sort of fighter is the quicksilver un/lightly-armoured type, so the duellist is mostly it for core. What I would like, though, is more damage ability and it not having to be a piercing weapon-based one-handed class (so it might well not be called 'duellist'). Closest thing at present, I guess, is some sort of TWF Rogue with some fighter levels (as monk has the wrong flavour and sort-of sucks at present anyhow). I would like some feats in this direction, as you mention.
Closest thing at present, I guess, is some sort of TWF Rogue with some fighter levels (as monk has the wrong flavour and sort-of sucks at present anyhow). I would like some feats in this direction, as you mention.
Yes, I'm partial to fighter/rogues myself.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I actually liked the idea of a spellcasting assassin, largely because I could adapt it to fuction as a mystical version of the ninja. I typically changed up the spells to include spells such as water walk and arcane eye to better mimic the ninja legends or make them better spies.
Having said that, I can see a seperate prestige class for that purpose.
I'm sure they will update the Red Mantis Assassin PrC at some point, which has spells as part of it's progression. I feel that's why they are doing it to make a distinction between the two PrCs.
I really like what was done with the Dragon Disciple I must say!
Acquiring the Half-Dragon template was cool though in 3.5E.
Having a chance to look over the prestige classes, I do have a few more comments.
Arcane Archer:
Is imbue arrow useful? A Wizard 1/Fighter 6/Arcane Archer 10 still can only imbue 1st level spells. This is next to useless for a 17th level character. The only possible class combination to get any use out of this ability would be a bard 8/arcane archer 10.
Adding 4 levels of caster progression would help the class out. A least then the Wizard/Fighter/Arcane Archer could then attach a fireball to an arrow.
Dragon Disciple:
I like this class. I especially like that you no longer become a half-dragon. However, this class may be too good. I really cannot see why a dragonic sorcerer would not go this route.
Does the natural armor bonuses from draconic sorcerer and dragon disciple stack? If so, a Sorcerer 5/Dragon Discpile 10 would have a natural armor bonus of +7.
A sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 3 gains the breath weapon at 8th level. One level later at character level 9 (when a sorcerer would normally get it), he gets 2 uses per day
A sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 9 gains the wigns at 14th level, One level later at character level 15 (when a sorcerer would normally get it), his flight speed improves.
For the loss of three caster levels a sorcerer gains improved abilities scores, increased BAB, and a d12 hit die. What is not to love. Why stay a straight sorcerer?
Duelist:
Can a duelist use Two Weapon Defense in conjunction with Percise Strike?
Loremaster:
The lore ability says it stacks with bardic knowledge. Then it says that the loremaster must choose a different Knowledge skill. Exactly how does this work? Do the 1/2 level bonus stack while the free bonus skill points must be for different skills?
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Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
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I know we'll have a thread discussion on all these separate points, but I somehow got the impression that the assassin PrC was going to loosen up on the alignment req., i.e., not just evil anymore.
I mean, it could be possible to be a neutral aligned assassin, right? There could be an assassin that takes contracts on killing evil NPCs, "for the greater good". Any insights on how to adapt this class to encompass good or neutral characters that are "hired killers"?