Beta Prestige Classes are now Available!

[Misery]

The fact it requires the weapon to be piercing is something thats rather a hit or miss to me. Makes sense to fit the flavor and especially since most duelists will be using weapon finesse (a lot of weapons you can use weapon finesse with are piercing after all). Not to mention, the ability is precise strike, which makes it a possible issue when trying to see how precise you can be with slashing as compared to pin pointing the right spot.

However I don't envision some flimsy little foil in regard to rapiers. The rapier has become a rather general term for many types of swords and the length and width actually vary from region to region. There are some rapiers who's blades are wide enough to support actual slashing attacks with fair efficiency though still not as close as say a broad sword. Still, I think it capable of cutting throats with relative ease.

Besides, rules wise you have to make compromises with stuff like that. Longsword is a slashing weapon. Does that mean you can't run someone through? I guess I see that as what its primary use might be, iono.

In any case I stand firm that the duelist needs to stay lone weapon style. Its the only melee class off the top of my head that IS that way (Bladesinger isn't just melee). Why sacrifice that to the duel wielding gods too?

People are talking about duel wielding as it was in history? Then do it and use the parrying dagger. You still get the Precise Strike if you have an offhand weapon in hand, just not if you USE it to attack. Pick up your dagger, give it a defending property and then pick up a bunch of two weapon defense feats. Now you're "historically accurate".

But don't ruin the only lone weapon fighter we've got. I think they did a pretty good job upgrading it to the new edition without overpowering it. I agree that maybe the precise strike damage should function like sneak attack does now, but one would have to look into whether that overbalances the class (a possible +10 damage every hit? That aint bad, especially for a defensive class).

Oh, and one last thing. The cutlass is a small, light weapon that does slashing AND piercing, if you wanna technically have both on paper.

[Bagpuss]

That's a possible +10 damage to every hit at, what, 16th level? Doesn't sound too unbalanced to me (and I am hoping that crits will go the same way as sneak attack anyhow, which would bring Precise Strike with them).

[spalding]

You know what? You're right, for some reason I had it in my head that the class said you had to have your off hand empty. Though why you can't use a shield and strike precisely too is beyond me as well.

[flash_cxxi]

Abraham spalding wrote:

You know what? You're right, for some reason I had it in my head that the class said you had to have your off hand empty. Though why you can't use a shield and strike precisely too is beyond me as well.

I was looking at the Duelist and they are an Initiative Mofo!

Take Improved Initiative Feat (+4). Add Reactionary Trait from Second Darkness Companion (+2). Then Add the Duelist's Improved Reaction (+2/+4). Assume DEX 20 (+5). That's +15 Initiative without Rolling a Die!
Awesome!!!

[Bagpuss]

Abraham spalding wrote:

You know what? You're right, for some reason I had it in my head that the class said you had to have your off hand empty. Though why you can't use a shield and strike precisely too is beyond me as well.

My TWF Rogue/Fighter/Duellist holds two weapons and only gets precise strike when they've had to move and can only make one attac (but two-weapon defense still works because you only have to be holding the other weapon). However, I just don't see why duellist has to be a single-weapon guy, which is to say that I don't see why 'duellist' has to be 'single-weapon duellist' (or they should rename the class...).

[Elondir]

#1. I think you should add an ability at 3rd level that reduces arcane spell failure chance by 5% every two levels (5% at 3rd, 10% at 5th, 15% at 7th, and 20% at 9th) that stacks with the Arcane Armor Araining or Arcane Armor Mastery feats. That way, with AAM a 9th level EK would be at -40% on ASF chances, allowing the character to wear heavy armor with no chance of spell failure.

#2. I would like to see 10-level prestige classes scale out infinitely instead of being capped at 10th level. And I would like to see a better treatment of them than the Epic Level Handbook/Epic SRD did.

[teddywolf]

I have a proposal for Arcane Archer, open for discussion, that I think might be of the general flavor of the base classes. Apologies for formatting.

Arcane Archer

Elves are known as being masters of magic, nature and the bow. While all elves know how to use the bow, the Arcane Archer goes from mastery of the bow to outright wizardry, performing feats that even the most dedicated non-Elf archer can only dream of achieving. Rangers and Fighters are the most common members of this class owing to their ease of meeting the requirements, but any class can manage if they desire. Multiclass wizards who don't mind slowing down their magical progression find the class particularly appealing.

Requirements:
Race: Elf or Half Elf
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (any of shortbow, longbow or greatbow, including composite versions of each)
Skills: Craft Bow 6 ranks
Special: Must have made a masterwork bow and used that bow in combat.

Class Skills: Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Perception, Stealth, Survival. (2 + Int) Skill Points per Level.

Hit Die: d10.

Progression:
Level Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +1 +1 Enhance Bow, Archery Pool, Bow Skills, Bonus Feat
2 +0 +1 +1 Enhance Arrows, Melee Bow, +1 caster level
3 +1 +2 +2 Enhance Bow, Dexterous Shot, Enchant Bow
4 +1 +2 +2 Enhance Arrows, Bonus Feat, +1 caster level
5 +1 +3 +3 Enhance Bow, Adjust Pull
6 +2 +3 +3 Enhance Arrows, Extra Shot, +1 caster level
7 +2 +4 +4 Enhance Bow, Bonus Feat
8 +2 +4 +4 Enhance Arrows, Bullseye Shot, +1 caster level
9 +3 +5 +5 Enhance Bow, Refocus Arrows
10 +3 +5 +5 Enhance Arrows, Bonus Feat, Extra Shot, +1 caster level

Enhance Bow: At first level the Arcane Archer can enhance her personal masterwork or better bow to fire as a magic weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus. This bonus improves by +1 every two levels after first, to a maximum of +5 and ninth level. If this bow is destroyed, she cannot enhance a new bow until the next day during magical studies and preparation. This bow only works as a magic bow for herself. The personal bow of an elf deity the arcane archer worships may be enhanced at any time as a swift action.

Archery Pool: The Arcane Archer gains a pool of archery points that can be used to a variety of special effects. She receives her Dexterity bonus +2 points at each level. She cannot use more points in a round than her class level, but she can apply multiple abilities to a single arrow within this restriction. She gains one ability at first level, then an additional ability every odd class level after:
Far Shot (1) The archer may make a single shot to maximum range with no penalties for range. Precision damage like sneak attack applies at any distance.
Exact Shot (1) This arrow automatically confirms all critical threats.
Attach Spell (1) The archer may attach any spell she has ready with a range other than Personal to an arrow. The spell is centered on who or where the arrow hits instead of its usual center. The shot and spell take one standard action.
Seeker Arrow (3) The archer may shoot and have the shot go around obstacles, even around corners. This shot ignores all cover short of total cover and all concealment.
Hidden Arrow (3) This arrow is unseen except by creatures with blindsight, see invisible, true seeing or a similar effect. A target unaware of the arrow is flatfooted and loses its Dexterity and Dodge bonuses to AC. In addition, firing this arrow does not break somebody's Stealth or any Invisibility effect that would normally be broken by attacking.
Phase Arrow (5) This arrow will go though all cover except force effects and ignores all armor, shield and natural armor bonuses that are not force effects, although other sorts of AC bonuses are still fully effective. It also functions as a ghost touch shot.
Arrow Pulse (5) As a full round action, this arrow attacks all foes in a straight line, 5' wide, for one range increment. If a spell is attached to the arrow, it affects each enemy hit by the arrow, although area spells only affect the targets and not their usual area.
Arrow Storm (7) The archer may, as a full-round action, fire one shot at each enemy she perceives within one range increment of her bow.
Deadly Shot (7) This arrow is an automatic critical if it hits.
Death Arrow (9) This arrow slays its target unless the target succeeds at a Fortitude save of (10 + class level + Int bonus). The target does not need to be subject to critical hits but does need to be alive. This is a death effect.

Bow Skills: The Arcane Archer continues proving her mastery with the mundane skills of the bow. Her Arcane Archer level stacks with her level in Fighter for determining her extra attack and damage bonus with bows only, as well as for any Fighter only feats that relate to bows.

Bonus Feat: At first level and every three levels after, the Arcane Archer gets a bonus feat. These feats must come from the Point Blank Shot tree, the Weapon Focus tree (for bows only), or be a combat feat specifically applied to use with bows.

Enhance Arrows: At second level the Arcane Archer enchants every arrow she fires from her personal bow. She makes her choice during magical studies and preparation time and may not change it until the next day. While her arrows are not magical, she may add a +1 bonus ability to her arrows. Every two levels after she may add better or extra abilities, adding a +1 bonus to what her arrows may have as an enchantment. She may not enhance her arrows in ways that are opposite of her alignment, nor two conflicting alignments - a Neutral Good archer could have Holy plus either Axiomatic or Anarchic but not Evil.

Melee Bow: At second level the Arcane Archer knows how to use her bow in close quarters. She may use a bow in melee combat without drawing attacks of opportunity. At sixth level she threatens all squares around her with her bow, having an effective reach of 5' and providing flanking at that range. At tenth level she has a 10' effective reach.

Spellcasting: At second level, and every even class level after, the Arcane Archer improves her spellcasting in one class, but does not gain any other benefits of higher level in that class. If she has no caster levels, she gains spells as a wizard.

Dexterous Shot: A third level Arcane Archer adds her Dexterity bonus to damage rolls with her personal bow. This bonus damage cannot damage creatures immune to the Rogue's sneak attack.

Enchant Bow: At third level the Arcane Archer can make magical bows and arrows as if she had the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. Aside from basic enchantments, she can only add abilities for which she has the appropriate spells or has the appropriate Arcane Archer ability from the Archery Pool.

Adjust Pull: At fifth level the Arcane Archer can adjust the Strength pull of her personal bow as a swift action.

Extra Shot: At sixth level the Arcane Archer can fire an extra arrow at her full base attack bonus when making a full attack with her bow. She gains an additional arrow at tenth level. These extra attacks stack with Rapid Shot and Haste.

Bullseye Shot: At eight level an Arcane Archer can, as a standard action, fire a shot against her target's touch AC instead of their full AC. (This can only be used once per round)

Refocus Arrows: At ninth level, once per day an Arcane Archer may spend 1 hour to change the enhancements on her arrows.

[Tom Cattery]

I can see this being a bit too much. The Arcane Archer is a warrior who combines ranged combat with magic. I can see a lot of your special abilities (Dextrous Shot, Melee Bow, Adjust Pull) being more in line with someone who improves their archery with raw skill, but not someone who dabbles in two different fields. Not only would it make the class overpowered, but it makes less sense than even the current abilities the class has.

About the only part of your abilities that I'm in complete agreement with is the +1 caster levels.

[Devlin "Dusk" Valerian]

Here is a BIG THANKS for those Prestige Classes.

Especially for The Dragon Disciple and Eldritch Knight. My players have been bugging me to accept their predecessors out of 3.5, even when it will still take a little more gaming-time in our ongoing campaign before I let them change into a prestige class.

I am not willing to make any remarks, or give an opinion now, since I have had no time to read each class thoroughly.

Nevertheless I am a little bit disappointed. This is due to the fact that I miss the "Paizo-Prestige Classes" that are printed in the PF-Chronicles like Red Mantis Assassin, Shackles Pirate, Low Templar, Harrower as well as any new Classes that are presented in the Pathfinder Adventure Path issues. The only exception being the Pathfinder Chronicler.

When are you guys planing to give us those to try out. Sure, they are in the mentioned books and Supplements, but only for 3.5

At least me and my players are anxious to see how Paizos own will fit into the Pathfinder Rules.

[teddywolf]

Tom Cattery wrote:

I can see this being a bit too much. The Arcane Archer is a warrior who combines ranged combat with magic. I can see a lot of your special abilities (Dextrous Shot, Melee Bow, Adjust Pull) being more in line with someone who improves their archery with raw skill, but not someone who dabbles in two different fields. Not only would it make the class overpowered, but it makes less sense than even the current abilities the class has.

About the only part of your abilities that I'm in complete agreement with is the +1 caster levels.

The idea is that they improve their skill and gain potent abilities with a bow. The Arcane Archer focuses on the bow and perhaps dabbles in other things.

The class could be scaled back from this, I suppose. I'd say remove the caster levels, if anything.

I put in the Archery Pool to put the class more in line with the base classes that have pools (such as the barbarian's Rage pool) and also to make the special abilities of the class... well, usable. As it currently stands it's not a very good class - I can't see why anybody would want to take Arcane Archer instead of continuing with Fighter. You'd be better with the bow as a Fighter.

What would you put in to make it even better than a Fighter with a bow?

[Zen79]

I posted this already further up in this topic, but now that we are back with the Arcane Archer...

What I would like to see for the Arcane Archer is a boost in flexibility, something like this:

At Levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9, he can choose one +1 bonus equivalent magic weapon special ability he can use from then on to enhance his arrows with. He can choose from Distance, Seeking and the elemental abilities.

At levels 3, 5, 7 and 9, he can choose one +2 bonus equivalent magic weapon special ability. He can choose from the alignment and elemental burst abilities.

At levels 5, 7 and 9, he can choose one +3 bonus equivalent magic weapon special ability. He can choose Speed or Bane (which should be considered +3 equivalent instead of +1 for the archer, as he can always choose the correct creature type for an extra 2d6 of damage).

At levels 7 and 9, he can choose one +4 bonus equivalent magic weapon special ability. He can choose Brilliant Energy, and something else if there was another +4 ability...

At level 9, he coould choose one +5 bonus equivalent magic weapon special ability, if one did exist...

As a swift action, he can determine which combination of abilities is bestowed upon his arrows fired.

The total bonus of the abilities he bestows upon his ammunition can of course not be greater than +1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level and +5 at 9th level.

I'm not sure whether this should be combined with a spellcasting-class progression.

I'm also not sure if it is too powerful to switch the special abilities on the arrows as a swift action; maybe it should be a standard action / full round action / daily?

[Tom Cattery]

teddywolf wrote:

Tom Cattery wrote:

I can see this being a bit too much. The Arcane Archer is a warrior who combines ranged combat with magic. I can see a lot of your special abilities (Dextrous Shot, Melee Bow, Adjust Pull) being more in line with someone who improves their archery with raw skill, but not someone who dabbles in two different fields. Not only would it make the class overpowered, but it makes less sense than even the current abilities the class has.

About the only part of your abilities that I'm in complete agreement with is the +1 caster levels.

The idea is that they improve their skill and gain potent abilities with a bow. The Arcane Archer focuses on the bow and perhaps dabbles in other things.

The class could be scaled back from this, I suppose. I'd say remove the caster levels, if anything.

I put in the Archery Pool to put the class more in line with the base classes that have pools (such as the barbarian's Rage pool) and also to make the special abilities of the class... well, usable. As it currently stands it's not a very good class - I can't see why anybody would want to take Arcane Archer instead of continuing with Fighter. You'd be better with the bow as a Fighter.

What would you put in to make it even better than a Fighter with a bow?

That's the point to mixing in the magic. The Arcane Archer as it stands is not bad. The one thing it's missing is an advancement to spellcasting levels to make the Imbue Arrow feature more useful. Like I said, something like the Arcane Archer is intending to blend two different aspects (magic and archery in this case) into a system that works well together. An uber-archer that goes for being a more focussed ranged combatant than the Fighter through pure skill would be better dealt with through a separate prestige class (there were a couple of these in 3.X, but I'm at work without my books).

[teddywolf]

Tom Cattery wrote:

teddywolf wrote:

The idea is that they improve their skill and gain potent abilities with a bow. The Arcane Archer focuses on the bow and perhaps dabbles in other things.

The class could be scaled back from this, I suppose. I'd say remove the caster levels, if anything.

I put in the Archery Pool to put the class more in line with the base classes that have pools (such as the barbarian's Rage pool) and also to make the special abilities of the class... well, usable. As it currently stands it's not a very good class - I can't see why anybody would want to take Arcane Archer instead of continuing with Fighter. You'd be better with the bow as a Fighter.

What would you put in to make it even better than a Fighter with a bow?

That's the point to mixing in the magic. The Arcane Archer as it stands is not bad. The one thing it's missing is an advancement to spellcasting levels to make the Imbue Arrow feature more useful. Like I said, something like the Arcane Archer is intending to blend two different aspects (magic and archery in this case) into a system that works well together. An uber-archer that goes for being a more focussed ranged combatant than the Fighter through pure skill would be better dealt with through a separate prestige class (there were a couple of these in 3.X, but I'm at work without my books).

Well... see, sometimes class names don't always go completely hand in hand with what they actually are; the name is more flavorful. The Elemental Warrior (Planar Handbook) does not get a full attack progression and gains no weapon or armor proficiencies, for example. But I digress.

There are very few classes that could touch the fighter in Core 3.5 with their weapon of choice. Only certain weapons got anything remotely like a good prestige class. The bow was one of the best of the (bad) lot for prestige classes build around a weapon, and it really only had two prestige classes I can think of with any lasting merit: Arcane Archer, DMG, which was mostly lame; and Order of the Bow Initiate, Complete Warrior, which was for the most part OK and which will survive the transition to Pathfinder quite nicely IMO.

One problem with weapon-based classes has always been that they don't stack with Fighter for Fighter-only feats related to the weapon. To my mind this is ludicrous. I mean, yes, preserve the power of the straight fighter; but if somebody is uber-specializing in a weapon doesn't it make sense for them to be able to get, say, Weapon Specialization?

In olden times, long before pen-and-paper RPGs, there used to be a progression to delineate how good somebody was at a trade. The breakdown was something like this:
Neophyte - barely understands the trade or how to do it. Example: me with web-page coding.
Apprentice - has a basic grounding, can do some simple items well. Example: George W Bush, President version 2008.
Journeyman - has a solid grounding, can be the tradesman for an area in that field and provide good service, though likely not exceptional. Example: my company's network system guru.
Master - aside from the honorific given from student to teacher, who did not have to be an actual master of the craft, this denoted great skill, somebody who would be actively sought out for their abilities in preference to most others. Example: Steven Brust, Author (seriously, go read him).
Wizard - a very rare title, given to somebody whose wares/skills command respect anywhere by anybody who has even the slightest inkling of who the craftsman is. Example: Kurosawa, filmmaker.

I only bring this up because you can put the Arcane in the Archer without spellcasting, simply by making their abilities so good as to be mystical - even make them somewhat magical in and of themselves.

[Tom Cattery]

teddywolf wrote:

I only bring this up because you can put the Arcane in the Archer without spellcasting, simply by making their abilities so good as to be mystical - even make them somewhat magical in and of themselves.

If you're going to make someone's skills and abilities so good as to be mystical, then why bother requiring the Arcane Archer to have any spellcasting at all, other than the Imbue Arrow ability, and frankly what you're suggesting would render that ability largely unnecessary anyway.

However, I would say that giving the Arcane Archer access to some more martial-specific stuff wouldn't be a bad idea. Maybe the Arcane Archer's levels should stack with fighter levels for the purpose of feats which require a ranged weapon as focus?

[Asgetrion]

Tom Cattery wrote:

However, I would say that giving the Arcane Archer access to some more martial-specific stuff wouldn't be a bad idea. Maybe the Arcane Archer's levels should stack with fighter levels for the purpose of feats which require a ranged weapon as focus?

Ooh, that'd be a good idea, and mechanically consistent to the similar ability of the Eldritch Knight!

[captive411]

Are there no prestige classes for a straight up str. based melee guy? Say a Half-Orc Barbarian?

[Dennis da Ogre]

captive411 wrote:

Are there no prestige classes for a straight up str. based melee guy? Say a Half-Orc Barbarian?

What about... Barbarian?

Much like the wizard should be the goto class for knowledge based arcane caster types barbarian should be the goto class for raw brute damage dealing guy.

If you want a PrC for barbarian you might pick up a level of sorcerer and go dragon disciple for a crazy spell tossing rager.