This isn't as big a deal as it was in 3.5 now that sorcerers can use Quicken, but still, why keep it? Why is it a bad thing for sorcerers to be good at metamagic?
I've always thought that sorcerers should be better at altering the few spells they have than the wizard. After all this magic is a part of them, they should have a far more intimate understanding of what it does and how to get it to do new things.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I guess I see it differently. Sorcerers already ARE better at metamagic, even with the increased casting time, since they get to have the right metamagic version of the spell they want, when they want it, without having to guess ahead of time what they'll need. I think metamagic is much better when you don't have to prepare ahead of time. If you want to empower your fireball, you don't have to decide that at the beginning of the day.
I guess I see it differently. Sorcerers already ARE better at metamagic, even with the increased casting time, since they get to have the right metamagic version of the spell they want, when they want it, without having to guess ahead of time what they'll need. I think metamagic is much better when you don't have to prepare ahead of time. If you want to empower your fireball, you don't have to decide that at the beginning of the day.
I'm not saying they're not better at it. I'm saying that the game shouldn't apologize for it. If you want to be really good at metamagic, play a sorcerer and don't say you're sorry, because you shouldn't be.
And then, of course, there are metamagic rods, which certainly shouldn't increase a sorcerer's spellcasting time (and probably should increase a wizard's, since he's already getting so much benefit from them).
I'm of two minds on this subject, but I think I'm going to have to come down on the side of removing the increased casting time:
To the point of a Sorcerer's versatility: Yes, the sorcerer can cast the metamagic spell on a pick-and-choose basis, as opposed to the wizard having to plan ahead. But the sorcerer can cast any known spell on a pick-and-choose basis. Without the added casting time, both classes are still casting spells the same way. Adding in the metamagic feat doesn't give them new spells known or otherwise break the mechanic.
Furthermore, Sorcerers still have to pay the increased level cost. So they're not getting the metamagic feat for free. Wizards get bonus feats (an ability I am in favor of). That diminishes the "increased power" of a sorcerer's metamagic spells even further.
On the point of increased caster-times: An aggravating thing for any caster; those who cast Summon Spells often find themselves the targets of every ranged attack on the board. Practically speaking, it isn't a penalty in most situations, it's just something that makes the option a bit more mundane and boring. When it is a penalty (depending on circumstances) it means a sorcerer will never have the metamagic spell they need at just the right time.
You know, I've never had a problem with the rule as written, but neither have I really seen any reason for it. It's always struck me as an arbitrary, metagamist limitation that doesn't really accomplish much in the first place. So I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't miss it.
I agree with everything you just said. :-)
(Seems dumb, wouldn't miss it, but don't really care too much.)
The casting time increase when using metamagic is not something that has troubled me much.
But after reading the various posts that still state the wizard supremacy over the sorcerer, and on the other hand some very nice innovative game mechanics for some other classes, what about the following
Arcane surge (or whatever if one wants it to fit several bloodlines)
For a limited duration and a limited times per day, the sorcerer channels his or her inner strenght in more powerful way.
Benefit: While under an arcane surge, the sorcerer doesn't have an increased casting time for applying metamagic to his or her spells. In addition, the spells DC are increased by 1.
Activation is a swift action.
Times per day: 1 time per day at 1st level (or when the ability is gained)
1 more time at level 6,12 and 18.
Duration : The arcane surge lasts a number of rounds equal to the sorcerer Int modifier. With a minimum of 1 round.
Reasons : The Wiz and Sorc have been the ideal single attribute dependancy classes for way too long. THe wiz has that base covered with his School powers, so why not give a little MAD to the sorcerer in that aspect? The Int dependancy also doesn't fall off the sky. One could argue that it's clear head thinking that helps one avoid burning up all that power in a single round of action. Also, it brings in some ressource management to the table for the sorcerer who's been the lazzy wizard "I don't prepare stuff much"'s bro for a while.
I'd chip in another goodie for the sorcerer also. Since he has limited spell known, why not make his lower level spells a little more potent?
Whithin the framework of the proposed ability, one could get an increase in DC while under the surge for lower spell levels, say
under level 6, DC +1 all spell levels (as proposed)
level 6-11, DC +2 spell levels 1 and 2, DC +1 spell level 3 and above
level 12-17, DC +3 spell levels 1 and 2, DC +2 spell levels 3 and 4, DC +1 above
level 18+, DC +4 spell levels 1 and 2, +3 for 3 and 4, +2 for 5 and 6, and +1 for 7-8-9.
I like very much the new raging ability, or the holy avenger proposed "stance" for the paladin. Sorcerer could use the love too.
-Jelly
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'd chip in another goodie for the sorcerer also. Since he has limited spell known, why not make his lower level spells a little more potent?
Whithin the framework of the proposed ability, one could get an increase in DC while under the surge for lower spell levels, sayunder level 6, DC +1 all spell levels (as proposed)
level 6-11, DC +2 spell levels 1 and 2, DC +1 spell level 3 and above
level 12-17, DC +3 spell levels 1 and 2, DC +2 spell levels 3 and 4, DC +1 above
level 18+, DC +4 spell levels 1 and 2, +3 for 3 and 4, +2 for 5 and 6, and +1 for 7-8-9.
This is actually similar to something I suggested back in Alpha, but I had suggested giving the Sorcerer a boost in caster level, not in DC. I think a caster level boost would be more balanced, since DC increases are rare in the game, and should be kept that way to keep affects balanced vs. saving throws.
I'd like to see sorcerers get a caster level increase to all of their spells based on their sorcerer level:
Level 1-6 +1 caster level
Level 7-12 +2 caster levels
level 13-18 +3 caster levels
level 19+ +4 caster levels
This is actually similar to something I suggested back in Alpha, but I had suggested giving the Sorcerer a boost in caster level, not in DC. I think a caster level boost would be more balanced, since DC increases are rare in the game, and should be kept that way to keep affects balanced vs. saving throws.
True enough, it's hard to increase DCs aside from pumping up the casting stat. But I believe that DC increasing feats and abilities are rare for a balance point of view, as they usually affect all spell levels identically. Raising the DCs for lower spell levels hardly come up as too powerful, it just gives the sorcerer other options with his limited known spells.
One could argue that its like giving a bunch of higher level slots with free heighten metamagic across the board though. It would hence be wise to restrict the use of heighten while under the surge (or clearly state that the heightened spell counts as the modified spell level for the surge bonus, so no 1st level spell heightened to 9th for a +12(4+8) DC 0.o).
But altogther, caster level doesn't strike me as being that important. The limited number of known spells is. Hence the increase DC to make his entire spell library still useful at any level.
Beside, knowing that your fireball will somewhat scale up in DC, as a sorcerer, you'll give a shot at some other spells at higher spell levels. So even if you want to be all warmage-like and evocation focused, your first spell in every spell level won't have to be the blaster.
As for the "it should come up in a "surge per day" format", I just thought it was sweet for the ressource management, the MAD, etc.
True enough, it's hard to increase DCs aside from pumping up the casting stat. But I believe that DC increasing feats and abilities are rare for a balance point of view, as they usually affect all spell levels identically. Raising the DCs for lower spell levels hardly come up as too powerful, it just gives the sorcerer other options with his limited known spells.
One thing I'd like to see is something like the feat "Versatile Spellcaster" from Races of the Dragon, where you can sacrifice lower-level spell slots to cast higher-level spells. I love having this feat with my sorcerer and my beguiler!