Firstly, let me say that Gods & Magic is a good product, and I'm glad I've got it.
(Obviously there's a but...) ....but it's slightly dissapointing for me for one main reason:
Lack of Creation Myth(s).
The exemplar of this sort of product is Green Ronin's 'Book of the Righteous' - which devotes a remarkable number of pages to detailing a full creation story and cosmology.
I'd like to have seen 1 or more creation myths, ready-to-go for characters in Gods & Monsters. It's the foundation of virtually all religions, so it strikes me as strange that in a book detailing fantasy religions, there's little space given over to this.
Creative Director
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Firstly, let me say that Gods & Magic is a good product, and I'm glad I've got it.
(Obviously there's a but...) ....but it's slightly dissapointing for me for one main reason:
Lack of Creation Myth(s).
The exemplar of this sort of product is Green Ronin's 'Book of the Righteous' - which devotes a remarkable number of pages to detailing a full creation story and cosmology.
I'd like to have seen 1 or more creation myths, ready-to-go for characters in Gods & Monsters. It's the foundation of virtually all religions, so it strikes me as strange that in a book detailing fantasy religions, there's little space given over to this.
We deliberately left out a creation myth, because for Golarion, I'm not so sure we WANT to nail down just one myth. Every race has their own creation myth, and the gods themselves have never confirmed or denied which one is right. Maybe all of them are; maybe none of them are. It's not really a traditional approach to deity stuff in the game, that's for sure, but then again we wanted the ancient history of the world to be mysterious and unknown, after all.
We MIGHT go into the topic a bit more in The Great Beyond, but if we do, expect to see multiple creation myths with no single myth given more credence or attention than the others.
We deliberately left out a creation myth, because for Golarion, I'm not so sure we WANT to nail down just one myth. Every race has their own creation myth, and the gods themselves have never confirmed or denied which one is right. Maybe all of them are; maybe none of them are. It's not really a traditional approach to deity stuff in the game, that's for sure, but then again we wanted the ancient history of the world to be mysterious and unknown, after all.
We MIGHT go into the topic a bit more in The Great Beyond, but if we do, expect to see multiple creation myths with no single myth given more credence or attention than the others.
Multiple creation myths would be teh awesome - waaay better than one creation myth - that's precisely what I'd be looking for.
We MIGHT go into the topic a bit more in The Great Beyond, but if we do, expect to see multiple creation myths with no single myth given more credence or attention than the others.
FWIW, I've included some contradictory or questional origin stories as it pertains to some of the planar races, and some less prominant but equally hazy historical questions on the gods. I adore historical ambiguity on these sorts of things.
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Creative Director
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We MIGHT go into the topic a bit more in The Great Beyond, but if we do, expect to see multiple creation myths with no single myth given more credence or attention than the others.FWIW, I've included some contradictory or questional origin stories as it pertains to some of the planar races, and some less prominant but equally hazy historical questions on the gods. I adore historical ambiguity on these sorts of things.
And this is yet another reason (one of many) that you were the right person to write the book! :-)
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Creative Director
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I actually liked the "Old ones, then Gods team up against Rovagug" ultra-condensed ancient history. Leaves lots of white space for different myths, but gives flavor enough for lots of inspiration.
That's certainly the basic version of Golarion's history. But it doesn't really address where the gods came from, how big their role was in creating the world and life, and all that. Personally... I think that very few of Golarion's gods were around when it all started; they've certainly been around a long time and many would probably want existence to think they've been around a lot longer. Desna and Pharasma and Gozreh and Rovagug are both certainly very, very old deities, in any event.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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That's certainly the basic version of Golarion's history. But it doesn't really address where the gods came from, how big their role was in creating the world and life, and all that. Personally... I think that very few of Golarion's gods were around when it all started; they've certainly been around a long time and many would probably want existence to think they've been around a lot longer. Desna and Pharasma and Gozreh and Rovagug are both certainly very, very old deities, in any event.
Hmm, that's a very interesting point, since Desna is one of the gods who seems to have some "internal evolution" going on (Lamashtu stealing power from her Mentor Curchanus).
I can understand where you come from here, since these three seem to be "classic archetype." I can however understand where you come from. It is pretty much what i like about Gods and Magic and the whole approach you have taken to this matter up to this point.
You give some of the big answers, but never pull back the veil to completely uncover the hows whens and whys. I think this is just the way to go. You can write yourself into a corner if you nail down too much - and there is not much point reading a book that gives none at all.
I like. :)
I hope one of the creation theories is 'evolution' =p
Yes, that would be Rovagug's... =D
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Creative Director
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Hmm, that's a very interesting point, since Desna is one of the gods who seems to have some "internal evolution" going on (Lamashtu stealing power from her Mentor Curchanus).
I can understand where you come from here, since these three seem to be "classic archetype." I can however understand where you come from. It is pretty much what i like about Gods and Magic and the whole approach you have taken to this matter up to this point.
You give some of the big answers, but never pull back the veil to completely uncover the hows whens and whys. I think this is just the way to go. You can write yourself into a corner if you nail down too much - and there is not much point reading a book that gives none at all.
I like. :)
It's also worth noting that just because Curchanus was Desna's mentor doesn't mean he's older than her. In fact, I suspect that Curchanus was MUCH younger than Desna, and that he was the god who mentored Desna's growth as a goddess of humanity, rather than a weird alien whatever she was before.
...Desna's growth as a goddess of humanity, rather than a weird alien whatever she was before.
This is how I like my D&D gods...a bunch of empowered Outsiders who woke up one day and said "mortals are worshipping US? Neat."
There's just something in the mechanics that make me think that 3e gods were the fantasy equivelant of the aliens who taught Egyptians how to build pyramids.
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It's also worth noting that just because Curchanus was Desna's mentor doesn't mean he's older than her. In fact, I suspect that Curchanus was MUCH younger than Desna, and that he was the god who mentored Desna's growth as a goddess of humanity, rather than a weird alien whatever she was before.
Oh, that just gives her even more of a 'Celestian' vibe, for me. She might have shown up with the moon called 'the wanderer.' Attracted from her long, long journey through the dark to find this wondrous place to rest, for a short time.
Well, 'a short time' in her estimation, anyway...
I like that Caydean Cailean, Iomedae and Norgorber aren't the *only* ones to have 'come up through the ranks,' with Irori, Nethys and Urgathoa said to be older pre-Starstone examples of divine ascension.
Overall, I very much enjoyed the book and my quibbles about the product were limited to;
1) I would have liked to see Faith Traits for each god.
2) Cleric of Nethys got *robbed.* (No different spell levels, no cross-class spells added to their lists, no special effects for some spells, a *restriction* on using a spell *and* they have to pay an annual magic item tax for the priviledge of getting robbed!)
3) Having clerics of different dieties get unique spells makes my eye twitch. Neat idea, but it reminds me unpleasantly of all the people who played Clerics of Tymora to get Tymora's Touch (in 2e) or Clerics of Mystra to get Anyspell (in 3e).
4) Having clerics of different dieties get access to spells from other lists, spells at different levels or unusual bonuses to particular spells also makes my eye twitch (I liked it in previous editions, but it got out of line, with some clerics being vastly superior to others, and was replaced with the vastly superior, IMO, specialty priest mechanic).
Is there somewhere that mentions/lists the areas that the "minor" gods are known from? Some are really kewl, but don't say in the write up the where, like the Goddess of Doors.
More info always adored!
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There's a ton of things I want to geek out over from this book, but I'll delay that for a moment until I'm more awake and lucid(I will say that my surprise favorite is definitely the clockwork goddess).
In fact, I suspect that Curchanus was MUCH younger than Desna, and that he was the god who mentored Desna's growth as a goddess of humanity, rather than a weird alien whatever she was before.
I really love the crazy possibilities this brings up with Desna being an alien deity/being before changing(or at least changing an aspect of herself) to fit in with Golarion's jet set. I've got a soft spot a mile wide for good-aligned alien entities and elder beings. I mean hey, they can't all be bad!
Combine that with the little mentions of "space angels" flitting about the asteroid belt and my imagination is taking off. Makes me regret that I'm not the one running my friend's "Boats In Space" homebrew he's making with the Beta rules.
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Combine that with the little mentions of "space angels" flitting about the asteroid belt and my imagination is taking off.The very notion of 'space angels' makes me think that they'd look like those alien ships from The Abyss, all fluttery and colorful.
I can't tell you how glad I am to not be the only one that thought of those beings from The Abyss!
As for the geeking out:
Brigh. I love Brigh for the imagery she evokes(I keep thinking of something like the robot from Metropolis and Ultimate Vision, except seen through either a Victorian steampunk lens or something more Art Deco) and the fact that there's now a deific ideal for Golarion's mad scientists to strive for.
I'm imagining a clockwork megadungeon built in her honor, complete with maps with moving parts. It could have been made to manufacture her "children", but was never activated properly. Damn, I want to make that now.
I loved the sideways reference to Erastil's more primitive and perhaps bloodier days.
I like the reasoning behind the elves' veneration of Calistria. It makes sense, and it helps go a long way towards avoiding the "too-perfect" portrayal elves are often decried as having(sup Complete Book of Elves!).
I really dig the somewhat Affably Evil Asmodeus. Downright insidious how he makes himself necessary to the other gods.
Heck, just to save some words, I really appreciate the relationships between the gods being touched on as much as they have. I really like Shelyn's effect on the others, and how their love for her means very different things between each deity.(Hell, that could be a thread all on its own: "How does each god love Shelyn?" Gorum: LIKE A TRUCK) I love Erastil's disappointment with Abadar and Sarenrae's willingness to try and save damn near everyone, including Urgathoa. And the bit about some of the Ascended feeling differently on some matters since they weren't around for the All Gods Throwdown with Rovagug.
And holy crap, Naderi! Imagine being a parent in Golarion and finding out that a cult dedicated to her has popped up in town...
I'm really, really eager to see more on Ydersius already, and the lost race that venerates him.
And Findeladlara can bite me. Hey, Aroden took non-human worshippers. What's your excuse lady?
Much love to Sean and all the other writers whose work was added to this book(The dragon gods are McArtor's, right?). And to the artists. All the portraits for the big name deities were great. If I start gushing over one I'll wind up having to do it for several others.
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Brigh. I love Brigh for the imagery she evokes(I keep thinking of something like the robot from Metropolis and Ultimate Vision, except seen through either a Victorian steampunk lens or something more Art Deco) and the fact that there's now a deific ideal for Golarion's mad scientists to strive for.
I'm imagining a clockwork megadungeon built in her honor, complete with maps with moving parts. It could have been made to manufacture her "children", but was never activated properly. Damn, I want to make that now.
I think Christine Schneider may have beat you to that clockwork dungeon concept... :)
Check out the Dungeon Core and then imagine the various golems that would inhabit the dungeon created according to the sensibilities of this
fellow.
In the beginning, there was nothing. Then Chuck Norris roundhouse kicked nothing in the face and told it to get a job. Thus, the multiverse was born.
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Brigh. I love Brigh for the imagery she evokes(I keep thinking of something like the robot from Metropolis and Ultimate Vision, except seen through either a Victorian steampunk lens or something more Art Deco) and the fact that there's now a deific ideal for Golarion's mad scientists to strive for.
I'm imagining a clockwork megadungeon built in her honor, complete with maps with moving parts. It could have been made to manufacture her "children", but was never activated properly. Damn, I want to make that now.
I think Christine Schneider may have beat you to that clockwork dungeon concept... :)
Check out the Dungeon Core and then imagine the various golems that would inhabit the dungeon created according to the sensibilities of this
fellow.
Damn people in the past keeping people in the present down!
But yeah, the gaslight, steampunk vibe just sets my heart a-flutter.
{Brigh. I love Brigh for the imagery she evokes(I keep thinking of something like the robot from Metropolis...}
Bravo! That is EXACTLY who I was thinking of as I described her. :)
And thank you for all of your other comments. :)
BTW I'm still waiting on someone to notice a very specific Lovecraftian "easter egg" I put in the book....
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Director of Brand Strategy
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BTW I'm still waiting on someone to notice a very specific Lovecraftian "easter egg" I put in the book....
Mine hatched last night and preceded to devour my brain as I slept. I think it's now eating it's way down from my brain stem through my spinal cord one neuron at a time. You shouldn't sneak dangerous extra-dimensional terrors like that into a book so seemingly benign as an RPG supplement.
Good book overall. I'm just glad that no space wasted on diety stats. As much as I liked FR Faiths & Pantheons, I think stats for dieties was a bit much.
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{Brigh. I love Brigh for the imagery she evokes(I keep thinking of something like the robot from Metropolis...}
Bravo! That is EXACTLY who I was thinking of as I described her. :)
And thank you for all of your other comments. :)
BTW I'm still waiting on someone to notice a very specific Lovecraftian "easter egg" I put in the book....
sorry just read it yesterday, both the sidebar, the domain and the magic item *shudders* loved it... need to find a way to mix my future campaign with a bit on this :D
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Long time Skreyn fan (Star Cairns rocked) here.
I was having an ADD trying-to-calm-down-after-work moment when I opened the package with Gods & Magic in it. I couldn't really concentrate yet, so I started reading it backwards. Go figure.
Anyway, when I got to sidebar on page 51, I felt I'd hit a jackpot in the "Other Cults" sidebar. And then I lost 1d4 SAN.
Everything goes better with Great Old Ones.
Sean, is this an Easter Egg along the line of Klarkash-Ton?
Sean, is this an Easter Egg along the line of Klarkash-Ton?
... yes ...
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ok... i now need to figure what or who or where or how is "Klarkash-Ton"
Lovecraft and several authors of the day would occasionally throw in 'easter eggs' by mentioning each other. Clark Ashton was a prominent writer whose work Lovecraft respected, and he off-handedly mentioned an ancient priest-king of some long-lost society named 'Klarkash-Ton' in one of his stories, as sort of a nod towards his fellow writer.
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ok... i now need to figure what or who or where or how is "Klarkash-Ton"Lovecraft and several authors of the day would occasionally throw in 'easter eggs' by mentioning each other. Clark Ashton was a prominent writer whose work Lovecraft respected, and he off-handedly mentioned an ancient priest-king of some long-lost society named 'Klarkash-Ton' in one of his stories, as sort of a nod towards his fellow writer.
i remember
he mentioned saying that he elarned a lot from many of his contemporany writers... while many of them though of him as their mentor... *i swear i have a book saying that*but i do understand... i was just taken back by 'Klarkash-Ton' reference
Clark Ashton Smith
thanks
Ok Sean, I'm blind. Where's the Easter Egg.
And as to funky names, my fellow Star Wars players thought my Jedi Ttam Sirrom had the coolest name ;-)
He was a master of the sredna game, right?
Ok Sean, I'm blind. Where's the Easter Egg.
Aww, just telling you is no fun. :)
I put an EE in Magic of Faerun. Nobody recognized it. Then, three years later, I'm working at Interplay on Baldur's Gate 3 and someone emails the lead designer and says, "please ask Sean Reynolds if the Gedlee's electric loop spell is named for Geddy Lee of Rush." Yes, yes it is. I was very pleased. :)
So ... I'm clearly willing to wait at least three years for someone to figure it my obscure EE's.
Keep workin' on it. :)
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I put an EE in Magic of Faerun. Nobody recognized it. Then, three years later, I'm working at Interplay on Baldur's Gate 3 and someone emails the lead designer and says, "please ask Sean Reynolds if the Gedlee's electric loop spell is named for Geddy Lee of Rush." Yes, yes it is. I was very pleased. :)
So ... I'm clearly willing to wait at least three years for someone to figure it my obscure EE's.
Keep workin' on it. :)
I got the Rush reference, but I'm Canadian, so I didn't want to bother you with a pestering email saying how smart I was ... that's not polite. :P
I'm working at Interplay on Baldur's Gate 3
What became of that? Are you at liberty to tell us? Are you still working at it? Was it dropped?
I'm working at Interplay on Baldur's Gate 3What became of that? Are you at liberty to tell us? Are you still working at it? Was it dropped?
Short version of story: Interplay was getting advanced payments from its distributor so they could continue operations. One month, the distributor decided to not give IP its advance. That meant IP couldn't pay the quarterly licensing fee for D&D/FR products (which were owned by Hasbro and fully licensed to Atari, a rival computer company, which had no incentive to be lenient toward IP). So Atari yanked the D&D/FR license from IP for failure to pay. Which meant that IP couldn't sell any of its existing D&D/FR games. Which meant the distributor totally hosed itself, as about 50% of its revenue was from IP D&D/FR computer game backstock. Oops.
Without a license, Baldur's Gate 3 was essentially dead ... too strongly tied to FR to file off the serial numbers and make a generic fantasy game.
We reused the engine for what would have been Fallout 3, but that is its own disaster story....
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Without a license, Baldur's Gate 3 was essentially dead ... too strongly tied to FR to file off the serial numbers and make a generic fantasy game.
We reused the engine for what would have been Fallout 3, but that is its own disaster story....
Gah! damn :S
ok...well not ok... and no words come to mind except ... damn !
And now you're sitting on a nice engine and think about how to pull together a Pathfinder Chronicles game with it?
And now you're sitting on a nice engine and think about how to pull together a Pathfinder Chronicles game with it?
Um, if by "you're sitting" you mean "defunct Interplay is sitting"....
And now you're sitting on a nice engine and think about how to pull together a Pathfinder Chronicles game with it?Um, if by "you're sitting" you mean "defunct Interplay is sitting"....
Too bad.
I'm still wondering if I got the easter egg
I don't know what you're talking about, so I don't think so. :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm still wondering if I got the easter eggI don't know what you're talking about, so I don't think so. :)
Ok, didn't want to post it in case I'm right, but I can't find your gorram e-mail.
in Battletech (which I'll admit you've never worked on) the Malthus bloodname is an Elemental bloodname exclusive to Jade Falcon. I know a bit about economists
That's a good catch, but not the Lovecraftian easter egg I'm thinking about. :)