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In another post I suggested bringing the rogue's weapon list and the bard's weapon list together for simplicity sake and James said it was important to keep the two class distinct in little ways.
So why do bards get Climb as a class skill? I don't see climbing as being an archetypical traveling musician thing. Rather it seems to go more with the idea of a sly person sneaking into the second-story of a house, i.e., a rogue. It is also a Str skill, which is kinda' out of their area of expertise.
I could very much see them having Ride, on the other hand, as they may well ride from place to place as they travel.
In another post I suggested bringing the rogue's weapon list and the bard's weapon list together for simplicity sake and James said it was important to keep the two class distinct in little ways.
So why do bards get Climb as a class skill? I don't see climbing as being an archetypical traveling musician thing. Rather it seems to go more with the idea of a sly person sneaking into the second-story of a house, i.e., a rogue. It is also a Str skill, which is kinda' out of their area of expertise.
I could very much see them having Ride, on the other hand, as they may well ride from place to place as they travel.
Can't really argue with that logic.
I don't see climbing as being an archetypical traveling musician thing. Rather it seems to go more with the idea of a sly person sneaking into the second-story of a house, i.e., a rogue.In the case of bards, I imagine it involves more sneaking out of windows than into them. In a hurry too.
Damn... ninjaed
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In the case of bards, I imagine it involves more sneaking out of windows than into them. In a hurry too.
I can see this (both seriously and in jest), but I don't think it justifies bards being as good at climbing as a rogue. Now that cross-class penalties are gone, there's nothing stopping a bard or anyone else from taking Climb and getting pretty good at it. I just don't think bards deserve the same +3 class skill bonus at Climb that rogues do. Some bards may need to climb sometimes, but it is one of the signature actions of rogues. Bards just aren't in the same league.
By the same token, maybe rogues shouldn't get Perform. Some rogues may play an instrument, especially as part of a disguise or something, but they just aren't as good at it as a bard.
When we get to skills and feats, we can talk about Skill Focus making something that isn't normally on your class skills list into something that is, so that rare bard who really does need to climb like a rogue can, but until then ... no Climb for bards and no Perform for rogues.
I can see this (both seriously and in jest), but I don't think it justifies bards being as good at climbing as a rogue.
Until they butcher the current skill system and introduce something with many levels of possible skill proficiency (maybe something with percentile skills, and every class has a maximum percentage at the beginning, and a maximum extra percentage per level), there's no way to get the system to support things like "not as bad as X but better than Y" in skills.
Besides, there's contless other examples here:
I could go on.
I can see this (both seriously and in jest), but I don't think it justifies bards being as good at climbing as a rogue.
Most likely the bard isn't going to be as good as the rogue, bards have fewer skill ranks and more demands on their skills than the rogue (since the consolidation anyhow).
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I don't see climbing as being an archetypical traveling musician thing. Rather it seems to go more with the idea of a sly person sneaking into the second-story of a house, i.e., a rogue.In the case of bards, I imagine it involves more sneaking out of windows than into them. In a hurry too.
too many hours to aclaim to have bein ninjaed
but if the bard is a musician i can see he climbing down in a hurry... but sometimes i see them climbing too... specially if the person waitign up is married and the husband is out
aside of that... other type of performers might have the need to climb and not to ride... whchremindsme next level i need to take climbing... i almost killed myself climbing a lighthouse exterior, my "bard" camptain can only climb in the sea into her sails... not at shore, much less if the floor is not moving... or so she says
I can see this (both seriously and in jest), but I don't think it justifies bards being as good at climbing as a rogue.Until they butcher the current skill system and introduce something with many levels of possible skill proficiency (maybe something with percentile skills, and every class has a maximum percentage at the beginning, and a maximum extra percentage per level), there's no way to get the system to support things like "not as bad as X but better than Y" in skills.
Besides, there's contless other examples here:
Rogues or clerics might have to use sweet talking once in a while, but that doesn't justify them being as good at diplomacy as a bard, who gets formally trained in that sort of thing. Clerics might learn a bit about the matters arcane, but that doesn't justify them being as good at knowledge (arcana) as wizards, who consider it their bread and butter. I could go on.
As could I. Ride should probably be a bard skill as it fits the wandering minstrel archetype. Climb should remain too. It has too many uses that aid the daring performer.
I'd rather err on the side of including more skills in class lists than less. The Pathfinder changes make skills much more palatable, but because Bards are meant to be skillful characters it makes sense to give them a lot of class skills.
Besides, characters shouldn't be bad at something because their class doesn't always focus on it.
Creative Director
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In another post I suggested bringing the rogue's weapon list and the bard's weapon list together for simplicity sake and James said it was important to keep the two class distinct in little ways.
So why do bards get Climb as a class skill? I don't see climbing as being an archetypical traveling musician thing. Rather it seems to go more with the idea of a sly person sneaking into the second-story of a house, i.e., a rogue. It is also a Str skill, which is kinda' out of their area of expertise.
I could very much see them having Ride, on the other hand, as they may well ride from place to place as they travel.
That's a good question. Climb doesn't seem too bardy, but Ride kind of does. Deleting Climb and adding Ride does also help differentiate them more from rogues too. Which is prolly a good thing.
Please no, bard's climb too. Even if we are just going to regulate them to being "wandering mistrels" instead of the "ultimate generalist" they should be, wandering involves moving, moving can involve climbing. Bards are a blend of fighter/ rogue/ and wizards, two of those three classes have climb so bards should too.
"You can ride a horse as well as a fighter or rogue but you can't climb as well as they can, even though you are the traveling type and they may not be."
Come again?
That's a good question. Climb doesn't seem too bardy, but Ride kind of does. Deleting Climb and adding Ride does also help differentiate them more from rogues too. Which is prolly a good thing.
Frankly, they're differentiated enough from rogues by virtue of their class abilities and spells without need to resort to amending their class skills. I'm not sure what you define as "bardy," but in our games bards are often scaling walls, theater sets, and rooftops in their adventures.
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well... taking away the "climbing" skill would take away some of the fire of "wandering" minstrel visiting (and escaping) married and single ladies rooms when in town...
i still see the bard as wandering but i suppose there are other concepts that could go with that skill
have never seen a jester mounted in a horse
Um Jason are you talking about jst adding in the Ride skill, or actually taking out climb and then adding Ride?
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If Ride were more useful in your average campaign, this would be a swell change.
Maybe introduce some fun chase & pursuit rules in Pathfinder? Also include some average travel times on the Golarion maps and allow Ride checks to reduce them.
Mounts should also probably give a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate checks (when used in appropriate situations). The horse has crucial significance in preindustrial Europe, but genre games always seem to make them huge liabilities.
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That's a good question. Climb doesn't seem too bardy, but Ride kind of does. Deleting Climb and adding Ride does also help differentiate them more from rogues too. Which is prolly a good thing.
This is a solid point and a change I think we might make.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I would not readily drop climb. The Bard himself [Shakespear] may have something to say about that.
A bard serenading his lady fair up on her high tower may have to climb said tower if his ode is well received.
And there's always those times when those cads may have to hastily climb down from said towers; just as their paramours' real spouses get home.
Let's not keep Romeo away from his Juliet.
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See, now that there are no more cross-class skills, I'd advocate trimming a few of the class skill lists down a little, like dropping Climb from the bard list. There is no more 50% penalty for taking skills off your class' list. Instead, some classes get a +3 bonus because they are so good at a particular skill, and EVERY member of the class gets it. Some bards might be +3 good at climbing, but all of them? Not in my mind. But individual bards could still take as much Climb as they want.
Trimming class skill lists also achieves a couple of other worthwhile things:
1) It helps make similar classes a little more distinct.
2) It helps those classes who retain certain skill really shine in those areas.
3) The +3 class skills bonus has created a bit of a power surge when you multi-class and suddenly gain a +3 "pop" in a bunch of skills. Lots of people have suggested ways to mitigate this "pop" - like you don't get all your +3s at once, etc. - but most of them end up being complicated or hard to remember. But by simply reducing a couple of class skill lists by a few non-essential, non-archetypical skills, fewer skills pop when you multi-class.
I would however create a feat that makes non-class skills into class skills so that if someone wanted to create a climbing bard or a performing rogue, they could. I just don't think that EVERY bard needs to be as good as a rogue at climbing.
Well you only get that + 3 if you actually take a rank in the skill, and what part of "wandering" means no climbing?
Besides if you don't want your bard to climb, don't take ranks in the skill! If you don't take ranks you don't get the bonus and you stink at climbing (ok not stink but you aren't good at it). There are plenty of reason a bard should be able to climb listed in this thread alone:
1. Getting around while travelling
2. "getting around" while in town
3. Getting away after "getting around" in town.
4. "Jack of all trades"/"Ultimate Generalist" thing that the bard is supposed to be.
That's just 4 reason right now.
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Well you only get that + 3 if you actually take a rank in the skill ... if you don't want your bard to climb, don't take ranks in the skill! If you don't take ranks you don't get the bonus and you stink at climbing ...
Okay, this point I will absolutely concede. Not EVERY bard gets the +3, but all you gotta' do is buy 1 rank and you get a total of +4. Pretty sweet.
There are plenty of reason a bard should be able to climb listed in this thread alone:
1. Getting around while travelling
2. "getting around" while in town
3. Getting away after "getting around" in town.
The whole sneaking in and out of windows thing is cute, but I hardly think of it as a class feature. My sorcerer or fighter or even cleric may also engage in a late night rendezvous or two and need to scoot once his/her significant other gets home. That doesn't mean I need it as a class skill.
4. "Jack of all trades"/"Ultimate Generalist" thing that the bard is supposed to be.
By this logic, they should pretty much get all skills - Ride, Handle Animals, Heal, Swim, Survival, Swim, etc.
When all is said and done, it doesn't affect me negatively if bards get to keep Climb, I'm not out to screw bards. With the elimination of cross-class skill penalties I'd just like to see some of the more generous lists of class skills trimmed to something a bit more essential. If, in the end, folks see Climb as essential for bards, I'm cool with that.
EVERY member of the class gets it. Some bards might be +3 good at climbing, but all of them? Not in my mind.
You're right. Ban all class skills! I don't see how all fighters should be good with animals. And how would every single ranger be good at intimidating people? And don't get me started about clerics and knowledge (arcana). That arcane stuff is witchcraft and there's churches with the "See no Evil" approach around!