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Some quick examples:
DISINTEGRATE
As in PF Beta, but instead of being an "instantaneous" spell:
Ongoing damage 6D6 + 1 point per Caster Level (Fort save against DC 10 + half Caster Level + CHA or INT ends the effect). If the victim dies, he/she disintegrates into a pile of ash.
PETRIFICATION
1st failed save: 3D6 + 1 point per Caster Level/Hit Dice damage and Dazed
2nd failed save: 6D6 + 1 point per Caster Level/Hit Dice damage and Staggered
3rd failed save: Disintegrated (Dead)
As is, these are even better than the original spells . . .
Any change to sleep besides the target falls asleep makes the spell useless. Two things I can see being done are 1.) it works similar to invisibility, if attacked, you wake up before the attack, and are prone and take a minor penulty, but not helpless and can not just be instakilled, or 2.)left as is.
I like your first suggestion, and I admit that those are just quickly-written ideas, but something should be done about effects that incapacitate or kill you, if you fail a *single* save.
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I can see a little bit of the idea of instadeath spells dropping you to -1. However, they should prevent magical healing for a short time, a round or two, and also drop characters with Die Hard as well, or they just are not a threat.
Another idea maybe be to make some of these spells have an increased normal effect, and the more dangerous effect (death, Domination, etc. . .) occure on a crit. The trouble with this is, while it will be rarer, the target gets no save. It just happens on a crit roll.
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Multiple saves are not a good idea, though. It sounds like a solution, but it means it makes the game more complicated, makes the spells/effects pretty useless, or does not change a thing.
In the 4th ed game I played, and this was a major factor for me not liking it, we where fighting on a rooftop against the big bad. We got him to a corner and he was completely surrounded on the two sides it could not fall off of. I used Cause Fear, and roll awesome enough to succeed. But then he got a save, which means like 65% success (at least), and my entire action was gone with 0 effect. Except I had just burned one of my dailies (I think) for this. My plan was shot because of some stupid rule. I had essentually just critted with a non damaging power for nothing. Now this was a little into the fight. It is not like he was just going to die the first round.
I like the idea of a guaranteed minor effect (no save), and a worse effect if they fail the save, but allow multiple saves (once per round) to break that worse effect.
For example, let's take Sleep:
Failed Save = Regular Sleep effect
Passed Save during duration of spell = Fatigued effect (or exhausted if fatigued already), plus can't perform actions that require Concentration (like part of the Barbarian's drawbacks during rage, no Intelligence skills or casting spells). Or if that's too strong, then forcing a Concetration check (as if disrupted), would suffice.
Since this is simultaneously nerfing the spell (won't stay asleep forever), but gives it guaranteed effects, I'd maybe combine this with the idea of increasing casting times (1 round casting means capable of being prevented through disruption).
1 Round casting times also give a very good reason to have Quicken Spell. Imagine being able to cast that version of Sleep without being disrupted (short of a readied action). That'd be worth a 5th level slot, no? Disrupting spellcasting?
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I used Cause Fear, and roll awesome enough to succeed. But then he got a save, which means like 65% success (at least), and my entire action was gone with 0 effect. Except I had just burned one of my dailies (I think) for this. My plan was shot because of some stupid rule. I had essentually just critted with a non damaging power for nothing. Now this was a little into the fight. It is not like he was just going to die the first round.
Don't you make your (4th Edition) saves vs ongoing effects at the end of your turn?
Therefore, his first save roll is to see if he is affected for one round or two (not 'no rounds/1 round')?
Beating the target AC/Fort/Reflex/Will DC ensures you affect the target for at least 1 round, unless one of his allies dispels the condition before his turn comes around.
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I like the idea of a guaranteed minor effect (no save), and a worse effect if they fail the save, but allow multiple saves (once per round) to break that worse effect.
For example, let's take Sleep:
Failed Save = Regular Sleep effect
Passed Save during duration of spell = Fatigued effect (or exhausted if fatigued already), plus can't perform actions that require Concentration (like part of the Barbarian's drawbacks during rage, no Intelligence skills or casting spells). Or if that's too strong, then forcing a Concetration check (as if disrupted), would suffice.Since this is simultaneously nerfing the spell (won't stay asleep forever), but gives it guaranteed effects, I'd maybe combine this with the idea of increasing casting times (1 round casting means capable of being prevented through disruption).
1 Round casting times also give a very good reason to have Quicken Spell. Imagine being able to cast that version of Sleep without being disrupted (short of a readied action). That'd be worth a 5th level slot, no? Disrupting spellcasting?
I'm all for "automatic" minor effects, such as imposing a condition on a character, but the mechanics (at least class abilities, feats and magic items) concerning them should be re-evaluated in a different light (i.e. some of them might become more valuable, while others might become nigh-useless). For example, if 'Cause Fear' and any other fear-inducing effects would automatically give you Morale penalties, the paladin's immunity to fear would become far more valuable.
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Don't you make your (4th Edition) saves vs ongoing effects at the end of your turn?
Therefore, his first save roll is to see if he is affected for one round or two (not 'no rounds/1 round')?
Normally, yes, but there is a specific roll just for this.
The problem I see with changing "these types of spells" to allow multiple saves is that;
1.) It might really bog down upper level combat. I can see it being common the need to make 5 saves a round
2.) Either the garanteed effect needs to be significant, or these spells need to work differently outside of combat. If a person has a random chance of waking up, not being paralyzed, not being charmed, etc. . ., than those spells are not reliable enough to be used when they are needed. You can not make any plans that include or depend on the spells working for a certain amount of time, and it really is just better to never use the spells.
What does this mean? Well, that Arcane casters no only use either damage dealing spells or those spells that do have a form of certain effects like buffs and divinations.
Same with Divine casters, in a slightly different fashion. Probably just a few more buffs throughout the levels, and now some Domain powers/immunities are really weak.
A formula I might see working would be that if you beat the save by 5, you ignor the effect for one round. On the innitial only. For every 5 points over the D.C. you make it, gives you an additional round. On a Nat 20, or if you beat the save by double, you are not effected by the spell. Every five rounds, you may attempt another save, with a cumulitive +2 bonus as the magic's hold on you weakens. I don't know, I really need to think more about this to weigh it out.