There are multiple Rogue Talents that are triggered on Sneak Attacks. The Rogue Talent mechanism appears to have no "only one talent can be used per round" clause, nor do any of the powers appear to have such limits.
Can I sneak attack for 6d6, bleed someone for 6HP/ round (2nd level power), slow their reactions, inflict 2 points of strength damage, and dispel a buff spell they have active all in a single round? If I have 2 attacks in a round can I do all this twice to a single target or multiple targets in a round?
Also, does strength damage from Crippling Strike stack with itself? Bleeding Attack expressly says it does not but there is no such language in Crippling Strike (so I assume it does).
Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me this should be a little more clearly spelled out one way or the other to avoid player DM arguments.
Rogue Talents: As a rogue gains experience she learns
a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes.
Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She
gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue
attained after 2nd level. A rogue cannot select an individual
talent more than once.Bleeding Attack (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause
living opponents to bleed when hitting them with a sneak
attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional
point of damage each round for each die of the rogue's
sneak attack (ie. 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding
creatures take that amount of damage at the start of each
of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal
check or the application of any effect that heals hit point
damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack
with itself.Slow Reactions (Ex): Opponents damaged by this rogue's
sneak attack cannot make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak
attack opponents with such precision that her blows
weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one
of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.
Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the
rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.
it does need may clear I would say no
To my understanding, yes, you can do all that with one hit. However I believe this is pretty much a new situation - the only "sneak attack effect" before in the SRD was Crippling Strike (not counting epic Lingering - which was just more damage).
To my understanding, yes, you can do all that with one hit. However I believe this is pretty much a new situation - the only "sneak attack effect" before in the SRD was Crippling Strike (not counting epic Lingering - which was just more damage).
From what I've read in the Beta this is correct. Seems a little overboard to me.
From what I've read in the Beta this is correct. Seems a little overboard to me.
Not to me. He had to blow all those rogue talents to make his SA that good. He's focusing on stabbing people in the kidney, and that's a perfectly fine focus.
Once they get iterative attacks and can do these multiple times (and they are a LOT more likely to hit multiple times since the target is denied it's DEX bonus) I think it becomes quite over powered.
The rogue Dennis described is doing this not only once a round but twice.
Cheers
From what I've read in the Beta this is correct. Seems a little overboard to me.Not to me. He had to blow all those rogue talents to make his SA that good. He's focusing on stabbing people in the kidney, and that's a perfectly fine focus.
I disagree... but mostly think this should be made clear.
Also dispelling attack + Multiple Attacks per round + Haste means the rogue can strip 3+ spells in a round while draining 6+ points of strength...
I think the easiest way to "fix" this if it is decided it needs fixed is to put, "As a swift action" to the beginning of each of the discriptions.
I think the easiest way to "fix" this if it is decided it needs fixed is to put, "As a swift action" to the beginning of each of the discriptions.
That would probably do it... or similar to the barbarians rage powers put it in the header "Unless otherwise noted rogue talents are considered swift actions...".
Crippling Strike is from 3.5, and he applied to all his sneak attacks there too, no matter how many he had that round. Bleeding Strike doesn't stack with itself, so it's effectively once per round per person anyway. I do think it's weird that Dispelling Strike doesn't have any sort of per-day cap, even though Minor and Major Magic both have caps are each duplicate much lower-level spells.
If you think this is overpowered, provide some reason why it is. Run some stats, toss up some comparisons, give us a few mock battles. Let's just not jump to the conclusion that because this is a powerful ability it is overpowered.
If we do decide it's too much for the rogue to be able to do all this with every attack, the best way to handle it would be to let him only apply one per attack. With the possible exception of Dispelling Strike, these are simply "moves," differing ways of stabbing people. It's reasonable to say you can't perform two different moves with the same attack, but not that you can't perform two different moves with two different attacks, and it's straight-up underpowering to charge a swift action for this either way (it makes the rogue worse off than his 3.5 counterpart, who could Crippling Strike with every single attack for no opportunity cost). However, first thing's first: is this actually a problem, or are you overreacting because a noncaster is doing something cool?
Crippling Strike is from 3.5, and he applied to all his sneak attacks there too, no matter how many he had that round. Bleeding Strike doesn't stack with itself, so it's effectively once per round per person anyway. I think it's weird that Dispelling Strike doesn't have any sort of per-day cap, even though Minor and Major Magic both have caps are each duplicate much lower-level spells.
Bleeding attack is self regulating as you suggest. Crippling strike under 3.5 didn't stack with a ton of other stuff.
If you think this is overpowered, provide some reason why it is. Run some stats, toss up some comparisons, give us a few mock battles. Let's just not jump to the conclusion that because this is a powerful ability it is overpowered.
If we do decide it's too much for the rogue to be able to do all this with every attack, the best way to handle it would be to let him only apply one per attack. With the possible exception of Dispelling Strike, these are simply "moves," differing ways of stabbing people. It's reasonable to say you can't perform two different moves with the same attack, but not that you can't perform two different moves with two different attacks, and it's straight-up underpowering to charge a swift action for this either way (it makes the rogue worse off than his 3.5 counterpart, who could Crippling Strike with every single attack for no opportunity cost). However, first thing's first: is this actually a problem, or are you overreacting because a noncaster is doing something cool?
Mostly I am curious what people think about it. I do think Dispelling attack in particular is wonky and should have some limits but I haven't poked around with the rest beyond realizing they stack and wondering if they should. These are a lot of powers to be tacking onto a single attack so I think it is a concern that needs to be examined. I'll poke around and build a character.
Incidentally, I like that non-casters can do cool things.
Bleeding attack is self regulating as you suggest. Crippling strike under 3.5 didn't stack with a ton of other stuff.
In 3.5, just like in Pathfinder, Crippling Strike deals Strength damage, period. In what way does that have anything to do with stacking, other than that damage always stacks?
I beleive he means there weren't several other things sneak attack could do. So there wasn't any issue of Crippling Strike stacking with other things at the same time on each sneak attack.
Cheers
Bleeding attack is self regulating as you suggest. Crippling strike under 3.5 didn't stack with a ton of other stuff.In 3.5, just like in Pathfinder, Crippling Strike deals Strength damage, period. In what way does that have anything to do with stacking, other than that damage always stacks?
Bolded for emphasis. I guess the word 'stack' is confusing since it implies like to like. Maybe "combined with a ton of other stuff" would have been better wording. Other stuff being dispeling, bleeding...
I don't think it's possible to prove anything is "overpowered", I haven't had much chance to plug with it but I did build a sample character built around the concept of Sneak Attack Talents.
10th level with just crippling strike:
Init: +5 Speed: 30 ft.
---------------- Defenses -----------------------
HP: 59
AC: 20 flat-foot: 15 touch: 15 (Leather +1)
Fort +4 Ref +12 Will +6
Uncanny Dodge: Retain DEX Bonus to AC when Flat Footed
Evasion: On a successful Reflex save against an attack that deals half damage take no damage.
---------------- Offenses -----------------------
melee : +1 Dagger +14 (1d4+1)
melee : Masterwork Dagger +14 (1d4+0)
melee : Sap +12 (1d6+0)
ranged : Thrown Dagger +18 (1d4+0)
melee : TWF Primary : +1 Dagger +12 (1d4+1)
melee : TWF Off hand : Masterwork Dagger +7 (1d4+0)
Sneak Attack: +5d6 dmg (When enemy is denied Dex Bonus to AC or flanked)
Bleeding Attack: Sneak Attack victim bleeds 5HP/ round until healed (DC 15 heal check or magic).
Slow Reactions (Ex): Opponents damaged by this rogues sneak attack cannot make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Point Blank Shot: Ranged weapons get +1 on attack and damage at ranges of up to 30 feet.
Crippling Strike: Sneak Attacks do 2 points of STR damage.
---------------- Special Abilities -----------------------
Major Magic: This rogue can select a single first level spell and cast it once per day as an SLA.
Minor Magic: Cast a single cantrip from the Wizard/ Sorcerer spell list 2/ day as an SLA.
Statistics-------------------------------------------------
STR: 10 (0) DEX: 21 (+5) CON: 13 (+1) INT: 13 (+1) WIS: 12 (+1) CHA: 8 (-1)
BAB: +7 CMB: +7
Feats: Stealthy, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Iron Will, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills: Appraise +8, Acrobatics +17, Bluff +11, Climb +12, Linguistics +5, Diplomacy +3, Disable Device +13, Disguise +3, Escape Artist +19, Stealth +19, Intimidate +3, Use Magic Device +5, Sleight Of Hand +9, Perception +4, Knowledge (Local) +13
Gear: Amulet of Natural Armor (+1), Belt of Incredible Dexterity (+2), Ring of Protection +1
12th level adds Dispelling attack:
Init: +6 Speed: 30 ft.
---------------- Defenses -----------------------
HP: 70
AC: 21 flat-foot: 15 touch: 16 (Leather +1)
Fort +5 Ref +14 Will +7
Uncanny Dodge: Retain DEX Bonus to AC when Flat Footed
Evasion: On a successful Reflex save against an attack that deals half damage take no damage.
---------------- Offenses -----------------------
melee : +1 Dagger +17 (1d4+1)
melee : Masterwork Dagger +17 (1d4+0)
melee : Sap +15 (1d6+0)
ranged : Thrown Dagger +22 (1d4+0)
melee : TWF Primary : +1 Dagger +15 (1d4+1)
melee : TWF Off hand : Masterwork Dagger +9 (1d4+0)
Sneak Attack: +6d6 dmg (When enemy is denied Dex Bonus to AC or flanked)
Bleeding Attack: Sneak Attack victim bleeds 6HP/ round until healed (DC 15 heal check or magic).
Slow Reactions (Ex): Opponents damaged by this rogues sneak attack cannot make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Point Blank Shot: Ranged weapons get +1 on attack and damage at ranges of up to 30 feet.
Crippling Strike: Sneak Attacks do 2 points of STR damage.
Combat Reflexes: Take up to 7 Attacks of Opportunity per round
Dispelling Attack (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest level spell effect active on the target.
---------------- Special Abilities -----------------------
Major Magic: This rogue can select a single first level spell and cast it once per day as an SLA.
Minor Magic: Cast a single cantrip from the Wizard/ Sorcerer spell list 2/ day as an SLA.
Statistics-------------------------------------------------
STR: 10 (0) DEX: 22 (+6) CON: 13 (+1) INT: 13 (+1) WIS: 12 (+1) CHA: 8 (-1)
BAB: +9 CMB: +9
Feats: Stealthy, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Iron Will, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
Skills: Appraise +8, Acrobatics +18, Bluff +11, Climb +12, Linguistics +5, Diplomacy +3, Disable Device +13, Disguise +3, Escape Artist +20, Stealth +20, Intimidate +3, Use Magic Device +5, Sleight Of Hand +10, Perception +4, Knowledge (Local) +13
Gear: Amulet of Natural Armor (+1), Belt of Incredible Dexterity (+2), Ring of Protection +1
Consider this more a proof of concept... that yes you can build a character that does this.
I think I would just make the effects of each not stack, where the effect is greater than "instantaneous".
Yes, this would weaken crippling strike from the 3.5 version- but you get the other fun stuff to play with as well.
Bleed would be unaffected.
You could at best keep them from AOO one round at a time. (by SA'ing them at least once a round).
It would still let you repeatdly Dispel strike them. Why? Because that sort of seems the point of the ability.
Now, it Would allow them to, for instance, split their attacks in a round in order to gut multiple opponents. A rogue so blessed as to have more than one SA'able foe in his striking range deserves the bloody reward of multiple eviscerations.
just my .02
-S
|
I was initially concerned about the Dispelling Attack, particularly when combined with a high level two weapon fighting rogue. After reading a bit deeper into the ability, I noted a couple of balancing factors:
1. Prerequisites: The ability requires minor magic and major magic to be taken by the rogue first. (Several of you have already noted this.)
2. Dispel Magic: The ability duplicates the effect of the spell Dispel Magic, which requires a dispel check (d20 + the caster's level; max 10). Beta, pg. 221.
The real key to this is level cap on Dispel Magic. Since the rogue can't obtain this ability til at least 10th level, it's effectively maxed out immediately. While very useful for taking down low level effects (say from a potion of Bull's Str, caster level 3) the rogue will have difficulty bring down spells put into play by a high level caster (say a Bull's Str from an 18th level Cleric).
Of course, this whole train of thought gets derailed if it's duplicating Greater Dispel Magic(20 level cap). (Or even worse, the Epic version - no cap whatsoever)
Thanks for reading.
Yeah but it is capped at ten. I don't know I'm kind of the opinion to simply make it 1/2 the rogues level as caster level, but then it's pretty gimpy, I just don't like it being maxed when you take it.
If the paladin and ranger get the caster level = level - 3 fix I could go with that on the rogue too, otherwise the 1/2 rogue level = caster level seems best and would still allow a rogue to fairly easily take off potion, scroll, and wand buffs.
I was initially concerned about the Dispelling Attack, particularly when combined with a high level two weapon fighting rogue. After reading a bit deeper into the ability, I noted a couple of balancing factors:
I was commenting more on the whole combination/ stacking aspects of the abilities than I was commenting on any specific abilities... Maybe I digressed in a later post. I'll try and stay on topic in my own thread ;)
So lets see what we can have here:
level 12 Rogue:
Talents
Minor, Major, Dispelling strike, Bleeding strike, Crippling strike, slow reactions
So if the Rogue gets a Sneak Attack off he will:
deals 6d6 additional damage
cause 6 point of damage for 6 rounds (36 DOT)
2 points of str damage
prevent the foe from making AoO (that's big deal right there)
'cast' dispel magic (caster level 10) lowest spell in affect on the target (by spell level not caster level)
plus whatever his weapon does. Truthfully this is much more than a spellcaster can do in one round to 1 or more opponents... having said that I don't think that's a bad thing.
I kind of like the idea of a rogue being able to do all this in one blow with multiple blows in a round just to put them on par with the wizard's effects, however what this does to the poor fighter is just not right.
With two weapon fighting weapon finesse and some decent buffs a round with this could do:
6 attacks with short swords:
(assuming + 5 short swords here and a dex of 26 ish and the buffs from the Lenny experiments)
Primary Hand:
+24 + 24 + 19 + 14
Off Hand:
+24 + 19 + 14
Dealing
7d6 + 5 (+ 2 str) damage (+ dispelling strike)
Totaling: 202 Damage + 14 str damage and maybe 4 spells dispelled (assuming average rolls no crits no misses).