This thread is meant to be a consolidation of several existing threads about the nature of the bard as a generalist. I have already posted a version of the proposed rules below, and this is meant to be an improved version. I've been combing through the threads and I hope this helps capture the majority view on the subject.
Much of the opposition to my earlier ideas came from the way I had couched my argument. I wanted the bard to be the great generalist and dilettante. Many opposed this (including several of the powers-that- be); wanting the bard to retain its current artistic flavor. I will gladly let this remain. If I don't like the flavor, I can make it something else in my own games.
So, to be clear: This is NOT replacing bardic music, nor weakening bardic music, nor doing anything at all to the bardic music rules. This is meant to be an addition to the bard's current abilities.
But bards remain underpowered in their current incarnation. They haven't been subject to the same power creep that has hit the other classes (and who doesn't love a little power creep!). This proposal is meant to give the bards some extra "oomph" while playing, give them a few extra options instead of just singing during combat and roleplaying, and otherwise develop interesting characters. I've tried to tweak them to fit into the mystique of the bard.
Without further ado, the modified rules:
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Bardic Path: At 3rd level, the Bard must decide if they are going to pursue one of two paths. The first is Mystic Performer, the second is the Dilettante.
Mystic Performer: The Bard has committed himself to the study of music, magic, and the interaction between the two. This commitment has opened the Bard's mind and abilities to the vast possibilities of magical potential.
Wellspring of Music: The Bard gains additional daily uses of Bardic Music equal to his levels in bard divided by three (minimum of one).
Master Performer: The Bard adds a bonus to all Perform skills in which he has ranks equal to half his level, rounded down.
Magical Attunement: At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the Bard may add one additional spell their spells known. The spell selected must be a spell level the bard is capable of casting. These spells may be taken from the Bard Spell List, the Cleric Spell List, the Druid Spell List, or the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell List. None of these spells may be Evocation spells.
For example, at 3rd level the Bard may select an additional 0-Level Spell or an additional 1st Level Spell to add to their spells known. At 9th level, the Bard may select an addition 0-Level, 1st-Level, 2nd-Level, or 3rd Level spell.
Piercing Music: At 6th level, the save DCs to resist effects of the Bard's Bardic Music ability increase by +1. At 12th level, this increases to +2. At 18th level, this increases to +3.
Dilettante: The Bard, in his broad studies of the world, has puzzled together some of the mysteries and skills that distinguish his fellow adventurers and can use them to his advantage. At the cost of studying music and magic, the Bard gains new skills and tricks.
At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the Bard may choose from a list of class abilities. The appropriate rules are found under the entries in existing class descriptions. Unless otherwise indicated, the level for the class ability is the character's Bard level. Abilities, once taken, do not progress (e.g. taking Sneak Attack 1d6 does not allow the Bard to add more sneak attack damage as they gain levels). As the Bard gains levels additional class abilities become available; the Bard may select from any class ability available to them.
Unless otherwise stated, class abilities may not be selected more than once.
At 3rd level, the Bard may choose from the following class abilities - Rogue Talent: Fast Stealth; Rogue Talent: Ledge Walker; Rogue Talent: Rogue Crawl; One 1st level Cleric Domain Ability (Caster Level = Bard Level-2); One 1st Level Wizard School Ability (Caster Level = Bard Level-2); Sneak Attack +1d6.
At 6th Level, they may also choose from the following additional options - Trap Finding; Channel Energy 1/day (May take multiple times, power level equal to bard level -3); 2nd Lvl Cleric Domain (only if the Bard has access to the first level ability of the same domain); Manuever Training; Armor training +1; Wild Empathy.
At 9th Level they can also choose from the following options - Animal Bond (as a Ranger, for determining abilities, the class level is equal to the Bard's Level-4); Familiar (for determining abilities, the class level is equal to Bard Level-4).
At 12th Level they may also choose from the following option - 8th Level Wizard School (Only if the Bard has the 1st level option from the same school).
At 15th Level may also choose from the following options - Rogue Talent: Defensive Roll; Rogue Talent: Slippery Mind; Rogue Talent: Dispelling Attack; Rogue Talent: Skill Mastery; Tongue of the Sun and Moon.
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The following abilities were proposed for the Dilettante, but there was opposition to them as several felt they encroached on the unique realm of the other classes. Barbarian rage 1/day; Ranger Favored Enemy (May take multiple times, does not stack); Smite Evil 1/day. I would appreciate comments on whether they belong on the list at some point.
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I welcome any comments, criticisms, or ideas for improvement. These rules could certainly stand some tweaking and additional playtesting (I've run them through the gauntlet quickly). Do me a favor though: If you have a criticism, be specific and tell me what needs to be pulled, improved, or changed. The same goes for support. I do love unadulterated praise, but if you like something be specific enough to let me know what the positive elements of the proposed rules are.
I would still like to see bardic music broken up into different effects from different types of performances. I think this could be best done by putting the different performance abilities achieve at the same level like the domains and school powers do for clerics and wizards.
Different areas of performance (and what they could enhance) could include:
Dancing (movement abilities)
Music (instrumental) (sonic and mind affecting effects more intense magical effects)
Singing (in between oratory and instrumental with some magical and some buffing effects)
Oratory (Buffing and party enhancing battle effects)
Acting (mimicking, and stealth abilities, nondection stuff)
Jestery (Negative status effects for enemies, odd attack choices like a juggling attack or juggling defense)
I think this would open up the bard to more deversification, and offer more options to the class without tying it down to one generic option for everything (like what specialization did to wizards in 3.5).
I would add that this should be IN ADDITION to a more Dilettante base for the bard too.
Also we might want to include casting magic in medium armor as a dillante trick too.
Ok, here are my thoughts:
I'm not a huge fan of the choice, but it's certainly reasonable. I'd like to see the dilettante stuff and the music stuff both added to the existing class, since this seems to be a compromise between both schools of thought.
It might be a simple solution just to give the bard access to the -non sneak attacking-rogue talents, since they're closest relative is the rogue anyway.
Most of these are pretty good, so I'll just bring up the ones I think are iffy.
-I really don't think it's a great idea to allow sneak attack. I still consider it to be too much of an intrinsic rogue power. It's almost class-defining. And bards are closest related to rogues right now, methinks.
-I'm still iffy on the school/domain powers, but that's mostly flavor, so I could get over it.
-channel energy feels like a bad idea to me. It seems like something that would be rooted in the divine, not the arcane. And, I think the bard needs a good solid healing song at low levels, which would be somewhat mechanically redundant with this. But, again, it's a good mechanic, so I could get over it. Especially if other players wanted it.
-Animal Bond-I think this might be too much. I know there's call for it (in my game, I had to use cohort, since the bard wanted to be based on mounted combat), but Animal companions tend to create balance issues in a way that familiars don't. Figure it this way: I can't imagine not taking it. Maybe there needs to be an associated talent chain or something.
My personal favorites are familiar, tongue of the sun and moon, and wild empathy. I mean, come on, how does a bard NOT get these things?
I would suggest maybe adding the ability to take an extra feat to the list (maybe instead of armor training), and the ability to add a spell from another caster's list to their repertoire (maybe instead of school/domain powers).
I'd be interested in a bard-unique talent that lets them use their charisma for CMB. I could see a bard heavily focusing on 'tricks'. Call it 'Performing flourish' or something like that.
Velderan, I think that adding Cha to CMB is a great idea for bards. It lets them be good at things like disarm, trip, or whatever and would give them something to do during combat that actually helps. Great idea.
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really like some of the suggestions above:
perhaps:
Extra Movement Song / ability, adding +10' or so of speed to 1 character/4 lvls for a minute or so
Healing Hymn: increases effectiveness of healing spells. in the Complete Scoundrel this is at +1 hp/rank in perform to any spell that rolls dice for healing.
calming lullaby: calm emotions style song, or perhaps sanctuary type ability...orpheus/saint patrick style
charm person/animal/monster as songs: a la the Sirens, lasts as long as performance lasts, perhaps for rounds or minutes afterwards. again, orpheus style.
some kind of combat-increasing ability...AC boost, DR, etc. on top of or in place of inspire courage?
-t
edit: also meant to include:
Additional Musics, especially at low level. Perhaps like Channel Energy you get # + Cha Mod / day
Spellcasting while performing, also...why cant you cast "Cure Light Wounds" while singing/poetry-ing/chanting Inspire Courage?
I'd like to see the dilettante stuff and the music stuff both added to the existing class, since this seems to be a compromise between both schools of thought.
Thanks for your help in searching for middle ground, Velderan. With your continued support, I think we can find a good mechanic that makes everyone happy, and avoid the unpleasentness present in some of the paladin and druid discussions.
Bardic Path: At 3rd level, the Bard must decide if they are going to pursue one of two paths. The first is Mystic Performer, the second is the Dilettante.
I know it's been talked about as two seperate paths, but I don't see the need to divide this into two seperate mechanics. Just have one big list that all bards choose from. It will have powers for both bardic music and all the other things. I think if you put them all together, most players will want to mix and match. Even someone who wants to play a diletantte may want more music per day, and a performer might want wild empathy.
-I really don't think it's a great idea to allow sneak attack. I still consider it to be too much of an intrinsic rogue power. It's almost class-defining...
-channel energy feels like a bad idea to me. It seems like something that would be rooted in the divine, not the arcane. And, I think the bard needs a good solid healing song at low levels, which would be somewhat mechanically redundant with this. But, again, it's a good mechanic, so I could get over it. Especially if other players wanted it.
I understand your concern with sneak attack, but lots of classes and prestige classes get it or similar abilities. I don't think that 1d6 is going to make any rogues feel cheated. In fact, since it can't be incresed or repeated, I would push it up to 2d6. It's very appropriate to a swashbuckling style bard.
Music has a close relationship with religion, and the bard already straddles the divide by having arcane healing spells. Some people might like to play a divine bard---a cantor.
The following abilities were proposed for the Dilettante, but there was opposition to them as several felt they encroached on the unique realm of the other classes. Barbarian rage 1/day; Ranger Favored Enemy (May take multiple times, does not stack); Smite Evil 1/day. I would appreciate comments on whether they belong on the list at some point.
I've been thinking a lot about these. I think favored enemy should be on the list normally, although maybe it should only be allowed once. I think the other two are fine, but they should have alignment requirements to match the barbarian and paladin. Perhaps they could be presented as optional choices in a sidebar. That way, it would be up to each DM.
I welcome any comments, criticisms, or ideas for improvement.
I still think Arcane Bond should be on the list at 9th, and A Thousand Faces at 15th. I second those who would add the ability to choose any feat the bard qualifies for in place of a trick. I also really like the idea of an ability to choose some spells off other casters' lists.
Extra Movement Song / ability, adding +10' or so of speed to 1 character/4 lvls for a minute or so
Healing Hymn: increases effectiveness of healing spells. in the Complete Scoundrel this is at +1 hp/rank in perform to any spell that rolls dice for healing.
calming lullaby: calm emotions style song, or perhaps sanctuary type ability...orpheus/saint patrick style...
Psionichamster, keep in mind that this thread is not looking for new bardic songs. There are some other great threads for that. This thread is looking for abilities to add to the bard alongside its music. Meta-Bardic Music abilities would be appropriate, such as extra bardic music or improved DCs along the lines of what Brother Willi suggested.
I would still like to see bardic music broken up into different effects from different types of performances. I think this could be best done by putting the different performance abilities achieve at the same level like the domains and school powers do for clerics and wizards.
Different areas of performance (and what they could enhance) could include ...
I had considered this as an option and I decided against it for two reasons: 1) It didn't address the concerns of those who didn't want the bard to be solely a musician, and 2) it has already been started in the Bardic Music rules.
I like the Bardic Music abilities that are available to Bards with different types of perform. I'd like to see that expanded so a singing or oratory bard has different powers than a dancing bard. It rewards the expediture of skill points rather than a path chosen at third level. These music abilities are being explored in another thread, but that's why I didn't use this as a base for the paths.
Also we might want to include casting magic in medium armor as a dillante trick too.
Not a bad idea at all. I'd think that'd be appropriate at either level six or nine. The only problem is if players use PHBII rules, it would allow bards in heavy armor with an extra feat choice. I'm not automatically opposed to this, but it strikes me as a bit silly.
Ok, here are my thoughts:
I'm not a huge fan of the choice, but it's certainly reasonable. I'd like to see the dilettante stuff and the music stuff both added to the existing class, since this seems to be a compromise between both schools of thought.
Thanks for working with me on this one. I'm hoping that the bard rules takes a few steps in this direction, so the input of someone who isn't gung-ho for it helps us keep things balanced.
-I really don't think it's a great idea to allow sneak attack. I still consider it to be too much of an intrinsic rogue power. It's almost class-defining. And bards are closest related to rogues right now, methinks.
So many prestige classes have this ability, as do a number of non-PHB clases, so I don't see it as too broken. It just helps a shifty/spy style bard get in some extra damage here or there.
-I'm still iffy on the school/domain powers, but that's mostly flavor, so I could get over it.
A rogue gets it, so I don't think it'd be that broken. If this is pulled from the rogue trick lists, I may reconsider, but as an arcane and divine caster I think it makes sense for a bard to be able to emulate some of their tricks.
-channel energy feels like a bad idea to me. It seems like something that would be rooted in the divine, not the arcane. And, I think the bard needs a good solid healing song at low levels, which would be somewhat mechanically redundant with this. But, again, it's a good mechanic, so I could get over it. Especially if other players wanted it.
If the Bard's abilities to heal are improved elsewhere, or if they get good anti-undead attacks, this may be redundant. Until that time, I think it can fit into a good "divine bard" build. Bards can cast cure spells, and both Paladins and Clerics use this ability, so it doesn't feel like encroaching on a single class' special abilities.
-Animal Bond-I think this might be too much. I know there's call for it (in my game, I had to use cohort, since the bard wanted to be based on mounted combat), but Animal companions tend to create balance issues in a way that familiars don't. Figure it this way: I can't imagine not taking it. Maybe there needs to be an associated talent chain or something.
Yeah, I think you're right on this one. It would be pretty powerful, unless the Bard's level were considered very low for determining its abilities, in which case it would probably just die. What would you suggest as a talent chain to lead up to it? Wild Empathy, then Animal Companion?
I would suggest maybe adding the ability to take an extra feat to the list (maybe instead of armor training), and the ability to add a spell from another caster's list to their repertoire (maybe instead of school/domain powers).
The only reason I didn't add these to the list is because I didn't want the bard to be grabbing extra feats left and right (with the increase in feats in PRPG over 3.5, there are a lot out there) without adding something a little dynamic to the class. But if there's strong support for this, I don't think it'd be broken. I like extra spells as a bit for the Mystic Performer path, because it gives the player a reason to want that path.
I'd be interested in a bard-unique talent that lets them use their charisma for CMB. I could see a bard heavily focusing on 'tricks'. Call it 'Performing flourish' or something like that.
Great for the rapier-wielding scoundrels I favor! Would 6th level be appropriate for this ability?
really like some of the suggestions above:
perhaps:
Extra Movement Song / ability, adding +10' or so of speed to 1 character/4 lvls for a minute or so
Healing Hymn: increases effectiveness of healing spells. in the Complete Scoundrel this is at +1 hp/rank in perform to any spell that rolls dice for healing.
calming lullaby: calm emotions style song, or perhaps sanctuary type ability...orpheus/saint patrick style
charm person/animal/monster as songs: a la the Sirens, lasts as long as performance lasts, perhaps for rounds or minutes afterwards. again, orpheus style.
some kind of combat-increasing ability...AC boost, DR, etc. on top of or in place of inspire courage?
-t
edit: also meant to include:
Additional Musics, especially at low level. Perhaps like Channel Energy you get # + Cha Mod / daySpellcasting while performing, also...why cant you cast "Cure Light Wounds" while singing/poetry-ing/chanting Inspire Courage?
As Fendin said, I'd rather not discuss new bardic music here. But if you're suggesting ideas for the Mystic Performer class, I am intrigued.
I like the idea of adding some new powers that allow the Mystic Performer add to their spell-casting based on their ranks in perform. How would they select these powers? What level do you think they would be appropriate at?
I like the idea that the Mystic Performer could select from a list of "Kickers" and by spending an extra use of their bardic music to sing, they can add that kicker onto the existing effect of the bardic music. Again, ow would they select these powers? What level do you think they would be appropriate at?
And finally, would they be balanced? Would the Mystic Performer Bard then become too good (i.e. better at healing than a cleric)? Or as it stands now is it not a palatable option?
I still think Arcane Bond should be on the list at 9th, and A Thousand Faces at 15th.
Yeah, I think Arcane Bond, in either form, is a good replacement to a Familiar.
A Thousand Faces also makes some sense, though a bard lacks the shape-shifting abilities of a druid which I believe is the basis for this power. Should they be required to have Alter Self in their spell's known before selecting this?
A Thousand Faces also makes some sense, though a bard lacks the shape-shifting abilities of a druid which I believe is the basis for this power. Should they be required to have Alter Self in their spell's known before selecting this?
Sounds good to me. I just wanted to add another druid ability, given the bard's distant druidic origin.
-I really don't think it's a great idea to allow sneak attack. I still consider it to be too much of an intrinsic rogue power. It's almost class-defining. And bards are closest related to rogues right now, methinks.So many prestige classes have this ability, as do a number of non-PHB clases, so I don't see it as too broken. It just helps a shifty/spy style bard get in some extra damage here or there.
It wasn't really a brokeness thing. My concern is that the rogue is the only class in core that has this ability, so I wanted to keep it rogue-centric (If we grant trapfinding and rogue talents to other classes, this will become the only thing that is rogue-only). At 1d6, it won't bother me. But I could see how it'd bother others.
-I'm still iffy on the school/domain powers, but that's mostly flavor, so I could get over it.
A rogue gets it, so I don't think it'd be that broken. If this is pulled from the rogue trick lists, I may reconsider, but as an arcane and divine caster I think it makes sense for a bard to be able to emulate some of their tricks.
I can't find this. Where does it say rogues get domain/school powers? i must have missed something new and fun for the rogue.
If the Bard's abilities to heal are improved elsewhere, or if they get good anti-undead attacks, this may be redundant. Until that time, I think it can fit into a good "divine bard" build. Bards can cast cure spells, and both Paladins and Clerics use this ability, so it doesn't feel like encroaching on a single class' special abilities.
Yes, I agree completely. That being said, A lot of people seem to be tossing around 'better heal songs' as an idea, so I assume the healing song will be getting improved.
Yeah, I think you're right on this one. It would be pretty powerful, unless the Bard's level were considered very low for determining its abilities, in which case it would probably just die. What would you suggest as a talent chain to lead up to it? Wild Empathy, then Animal Companion?
I would go wild Empathy-->AC at 1/2 level-->AC at level -3. Without favored enemy, it'd never get quite as strong as a ranger pet. Let alone a druid or pally pet, and this feels like enough opportunity cost to me, given some other cool powers.
Great for the rapier-wielding scoundrels I favor! Would 6th level be appropriate for this ability?
Yes. Enough to make them suffer through low levels without it (I think there needs to be some low-level suffering. It makes higher levels and PRCs worth it), but not enough to make it high end.
A Thousand Faces also makes some sense, though a bard lacks the shape-shifting abilities of a druid which I believe is the basis for this power. Should they be required to have Alter Self in their spell's known before selecting this?Sounds good to me. I just wanted to add another druid ability, given the bard's distant druidic origin.
Thirded. This makes a lot of sense for a bard. Also, I would not make alter self a requirement.
There are some great ideas developing here. Hooray!
I really do think it's unnecissary to have two different paths with two different lists. Put all of the Bard Talents in one list. It would be easy enough to choose all the music and magic enhancing talents and call oneself a Mystic Performer. It would be equally easy to choose all the combat options and think of oneself as a dueling, spoiled, noble diletantte, or even stradle the line between the two.
So just one list, please.
You know what? We don't have any powers that interact with Bardic Knowledge! That's a classic part of the class. We should come up with somee.
There are some great ideas developing here. Hooray!
I really do think it's unnecissary to have two different paths with two different lists. Put all of the Bard Talents in one list. It would be easy enough to choose all the music and magic enhancing talents and call oneself a Mystic Performer. It would be equally easy to choose all the combat options and think of oneself as a dueling, spoiled, noble diletantte, or even stradle the line between the two.
So just one list, please.
I concur. Most of this list includes what I would consider relatively minor powers in relation to music/spells/skills. Just a couple of things to give the bard some customizability and give a taste of the oldschool bard feeling. Which is a good thing. What I'd personally like is for these powers to be given at less regular intervals (maybe every 4 or 5 levels) and then just added to the existing bard. Then, instead of 'mystic performer', I'd like to see music get a large boost for everyone.
What kind of abilities would you have tied to bardic knowledge? I mean, I'm sure some talents could be worked up. I always really liked the archivist from heroes of horror.
There are some great ideas developing here. Hooray!
I really do think it's unnecissary to have two different paths with two different lists. Put all of the Bard Talents in one list. It would be easy enough to choose all the music and magic enhancing talents and call oneself a Mystic Performer. It would be equally easy to choose all the combat options and think of oneself as a dueling, spoiled, noble diletantte, or even stradle the line between the two.
So just one list, please.
A unified list has its potential. My concern is that it may be unbalanced; especially if we boost the Performance bard magically.
Does anyone else see any problems with merging the two? I'm afraid that without limitations the potential for a super-build is ... staggering.
What kind of abilities would you have tied to bardic knowledge? I mean, I'm sure some talents could be worked up. I always really liked the archivist from heroes of horror.
I also enjoyed the class. The problem is to tie it into Bardic Knowledge you'd have to copy the archivist pretty closely. The new Bardic Knowledge is an improvement over the old system, but it leaves a little to be desired. I also like traits that reward the use of knowledge in conjunction with other skills.
Some suggestions:
Know Thy Foe: Any Knowledge checks made to identify a monster and its traits is made at a +5.
Beyond Maps: Anytime you successfully make a Knowledge (Geography) check to navigate a region, you gain a +2 bonus to all survival checks within that region.
Ever Ready: Anytime you successfully use a Survival check to track a creature or group of creatures, you may make an appropriate Knowledge roll at a +5 bonus to identify the creatures.
No More Mistakes:: Anytime you succesfully disable a trap or snare with Disable Device you make make a Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or Knowledge (Engineering) check with a DC equal to the trap or snare's disable DC. If sucessful, you gain a +2 bonus to disable all traps or snares set by the same individual or group for one month. This bonus is not cumulativev.
Understand Their Ways: Anytime you have successfully identified or learned a pertinent piece of information about a person or creature using the appropriate Knowledge skills, you gain a +2 to Bluff and a +2 to Acrobatics on any opposed rolls against that person or creature.
I have just hammered these out, so they are rough. But how does the general idea look to all of you?
a very nice list there, I would have to sit down and hammer out some math on it to see the balance point. The only problems I have with these is the possibility of DM meanness (oh no someone else sat this trap no bonus for you. This will never be solved though so it's ignorable) and bookkeeping which will be a pain.
A unified list has its potential. My concern is that it may be unbalanced; especially if we boost the Performance bard magically.
Does anyone else see any problems with merging the two? I'm afraid that without limitations the potential for a super-build is ... staggering.
Hmm, I guess you'll have to elaborate on those super-builds; nothing comes to my mind.
Simplicity is a big reason for a unified list. As people have said, the class entry is already quite lengthy. A single list would be simpler and therefor shorter.
I guess I feel like the abilities offered at each time should be roughly equal in power between the two "paths." It would be more complicated to have them at different power levels.
There are two models for the kind of mechanic we're suggesting, the ranger/sorceror style---relativly fixed tracks---and the monk/rogue style---an open list from which the player chooses. Right now we have one fixed path and one open list. I don't think that works terribly well; it needs to be one or the other.
The ranger style "paths" produce specialists. The rogue style produces generalists. Since the point of this mechanic is to strengthen the bard's ability to be a generalist, going with the open list makes the most sense to me.
Like I said above, it's the simplist thing in the world to pick only specialized options if you want to specialize. Or make only "non-bardy" choices if you want to distance yourself from the troubador image. But many people will want a little from Column A and a little from Column B, and I think that's great.
What kind of abilities would you have tied to bardic knowledge? I mean, I'm sure some talents could be worked up. I always really liked the archivist from heroes of horror.
I guess I was thinking of something along the lines of what Brother Willi proposed--synergies gained from succesful knowledge checks.
I think they should stay within the traditional realms of bardic knowledge though---history, magic, nobility, monsters. Not so much disarming traps or wilderness survival.
I'm better at analyzing this stuff than making it up, but here are a couple of ideas. There should probably only be three or four:
Go Native: The bard is especially good at ingratiating herself into the local scene wherever she goes. If she spends some time getting to know the people in an area and makes a succesful Knowledge (Local) check against DC 20, she becomes readily accepted by the community and recieves a +2 bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive checks to gather information and request aid for one week. For every 5 points over 20 the bard makes her check by, the bonus increases by +1.
Student of History: The bard's extensive knowledge of history helps her when dealing with antiquity. When faced with a location or item of historical importance, the bard may make a Knowldege (History) check against DC 20. If she succeeds the details she remembers grant her a +2 bonus to subsequent, related Knowledge checks and a +5 to related Appraise, Linguistics, and Use Magic Device checks.
I guess I was thinking of something along the lines of what Brother Willi proposed--synergies gained from succesful knowledge checks.
I think they should stay within the traditional realms of bardic knowledge though---history, magic, nobility, monsters. Not so much disarming traps or wilderness survival.
I'm better at analyzing this stuff than making it up, but here are a couple of ideas. There should probably only be three or four:
Go Native: The bard is especially good at ingratiating herself into the local scene wherever she goes. If she spends some time getting to know the people in an area and makes a succesful Knowledge (Local) check against DC 20, she becomes readily accepted by the community and recieves a +2 bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive checks to gather information and request aid for one week. For every 5 points over 20 the bard makes her check by, the bonus increases by +1.
This is a great one. I like the fixed DC with bonuses for exceeding it. I would define the time more appropriately (I would say either an hour or a day)and define "area" a bit more. A large city and an expansive farming community are very different, but I see this skill working equally well in both.
Student of History: The bard's extensive knowledge of history helps her when dealing with antiquity. When faced with a location or item of historical importance, the bard may make a Knowldege (History) check against DC 20. If she succeeds the details she remembers grant her a +2 bonus to subsequent, related Knowledge checks and a +5 to related Appraise, Linguistics, and Use Magic Device checks.
Again, an exceptionally sound ability. Is there a reason you moved the bonus to +5 here? I liked the mechanic there a bit better; because it rewarded higher skills. +5 is also a steep bonus.
I like the approach of this mechanism a lot. I will be working on reformatting some of my above abilities to match this.
The ranger style "paths" produce specialists. The rogue style produces generalists. Since the point of this mechanic is to strengthen the bard's ability to be a generalist, going with the open list makes the most sense to me.
Like I said above, it's the simplist thing in the world to pick only specialized options if you want to specialize. Or make only "non-bardy" choices if you want to distance yourself from the troubador image. But many people will want a little from Column A and a little from Column B, and I think that's great.
That's a fair point. Limiting things is appearing more and more defeatist to me as I play with some of these rules.
That's a fair point. Limiting things is appearing more and more defeatist to me as I play with some of these rules.The ranger style "paths" produce specialists. The rogue style produces generalists. Since the point of this mechanic is to strengthen the bard's ability to be a generalist, going with the open list makes the most sense to me.
Like I said above, it's the simplist thing in the world to pick only specialized options if you want to specialize. Or make only "non-bardy" choices if you want to distance yourself from the troubador image. But many people will want a little from Column A and a little from Column B, and I think that's great.
Yes. The paths seem inappropriate to me if the goal is to make the bard a generalist. I think the idea that they sort of pick up a mishmash of abilities is fitting to a wandering minstrel/jester/politician. And most of these abilities are too minor to really break anything.
This is a great one. I like the fixed DC with bonuses for exceeding it. I would define the time more appropriately (I would say either an hour or a day)and define "area" a bit more. A large city and an expansive farming community are very different, but I see this skill working equally well in both.
Well, I wanted both abilities to have wiggle room for the DM to decide how it applies. I started with the general +2 bonus for a favorable condition. I wanted an area to be able to apply to a farming community, a neighborhood, or even a small social circle---a community of people small enough that they will talk to each other about you and how you're pretty cool. I picked a week, because a day is just too short. A whole community doesn't become interested in you and then uninterested in the space of a day.
Again, an exceptionally sound ability. Is there a reason you moved the bonus to +5 here? I liked the mechanic there a bit better; because it rewarded higher skills. +5 is also a steep bonus.
In this case, my thinking was: you find some ruins and the bard realizes they're historical (as opposed to completely insignificant), so she gets a favorable bonus to remember other details about the place while you're inside, because she's correlating data. And she gets a big bonus to dicipher strange writing, identify historical items, and figure out how famous items work. Perhaps I should specify that the bonuses are only meant to apply to the historical stuff, not the bards own stuff she brings with her onsite. I guess I made the bonuses so big so that the ability would still be useful to the bard if she adventures in an insignificant place, but finds a famous magic sword or something.
As much as I like noncombat abilities, you have to ask yourself if those are really balanced against the other abilities. I can see a lot of the other things on the list being a lot more useful. I mean, the bard's already going to be alright at knowledge checks (depending on how the final bardic knowledge skill system works out) and social skills. I can't say I'd want to take it if I were playing a bard (of course, the number of knowledge checks vary by campaign). Though, I will agree, those are very solid mechanics.
As much as I like noncombat abilities, you have to ask yourself if those are really balanced against the other abilities. I can see a lot of the other things on the list being a lot more useful. I mean, the bard's already going to be alright at knowledge checks (depending on how the final bardic knowledge skill system works out) and social skills. I can't say I'd want to take it if I were playing a bard (of course, the number of knowledge checks vary by campaign). Though, I will agree, those are very solid mechanics.
I guess what I like about those two ideas is they offer you the choice to make your bard the undisputed master of those things. A paladin could also be very charming, but a bard who chooses Go Native can walk right into a room of indiferent strangers and leave their boon companion. A wizard can know a lot about history, but it's a bard with Student of History that remembers the silly little rhyme that activates the legendary kings magic sword.
I want bards to be effective generalists, too, but it doesn't hurt to throw in a few choices that strengthn their special areas.
Ok so I've been thinking on the idea of improving the bards performance based chasis, and here's what I have:
1. KaeYoss suggested giving the bard an extra skill point that can only be spent on a perform skill. I like it.
2. With KaeYoss's fix for that problem I'm keeping the skill rank requirements: You'll see why in a minute:
3. Each of these performance types have their own special little thing, In order to use that thing you must keep your skill ranks in that performance type. The following performance types would not allow you to get Dirge of Doom, Discordant Performance, Song of Freedom, soothing performance, Frightening tune, or Paralyzing performance: Perform(dance) and Perform(acting)
Oratory/singing -- Allows bardic music to be used/maintained with a Move action, allowing the bard to have a standard action that can't be used for spell casting.
Perform(instrument) -- Allows bardic music to be used/maintained with a move action, allowing the bard to have a standard action that can be used for casting spells.
Dancing -- Requires the bard to spend a move action every round to keep the dance going. The bard can actually move up to half his movement rate while using the move action to keep the dance going.
NEW DANCES -- these three are gained one at a time at the same time as Dirge of Doom, Song of Freedom and Frightening Tune if the bard has the appropriate skill ranks in perform(dance):
Dance of Evasion -- Any movement by a bard dancing the dance of evasion does not provoke an AoO, while dancing the dance of evasion the bard gets the benefits of the evasion class ability like a rogue.
Dance of Free Movement -- Grants allies within 30 ft of the bard a +20 enhancement bonus to land speed, and an additional attack as part of a standard action. This additional attack is made at full BAB - 5. The bard may include theirself in the this benefit
Dance of Blades -- While dancing this dance the bard make cause up a weapon in her possession to act as if it had the dancing weapon enhancement. The weapon will move with the bard but can always make a full attack on the bard's initiative.
Acting -- Requires the bard to spend an hour at the start of the day "Getting into his Role". Once done he gains the following benefits at the same time as Dirge of Doom, Song of Freedom and Frightening Tune if the bard has the appropriate skill ranks in perform(acting) when a bard uses these abilities he loses half his bardic performance uses for that day (just at the start of the day not each time the ability is activated):
At face Value -- People assume the bard is what he looks to be; All detection spells present information as if the bard was the role he is acting as.
Fill the Role -- the bard may choose one class feature of another class that is gotten by that class at a level equal to or less than 1/2 the bard's class level. In the case of wizard and Cleric spellcasting the bard may choose to prepare his spells for the day off those classes list (he must have a spell book for wizard spells) but only up to spells 1/4 his level in spell level (i.e. he could prepare 3rd level spells at level 12) or his bard list.
Mimic -- The bard may choose to repeat an action that he has just seen performed by another, if the action is the casting of a spell or spell-like ability this uses up a number of bardic performance uses equal to the spell's level. The bard may choose new targets for his mimicked performance.
A bard could get as many sets of performances as he wants, as long as he keeps paying the skill tax on them.
Abraham: Those are some pretty cool suggestions. In particular, I like the way in which you've revised Singing/Oratory and Instruments.
Does the mechanical function of the Perform skill (ala Perform checks) have any bearing upon when abilities are gained or how they are used, or would it still be a static requirement (i.e. What does Perform do for non-Bards)?
The gaining of abilities would be the same as it is now, but you would get one free skill point that can only be used for a performance skill. You would only get the performance abilities for the bard level and performance skills that you have the correct number of ranks in. However by doing this a person could choose to focus on his performance talents, but he would not be a skill monkey as each type of performance after the first would need to be paid for with normal skill points. If someone wanted a generalist bard instead they can do the skill monkey thing, and still have a type of performance abilities they are good at, they just won't get all the different types.
A note on the Acting performances:
At face value allows a caster level check DC 11 + bard class level to get correct information.
Fill the Role Only allows the use of one class ability at a time, and that class ability functions as if the bard was a member of that class 1/4 his bard level. So if a 12th level bard (the first level he could use this ability) used fill the role to get channel positive energy he would channel energy like a cleric of 3rd level, and he would have 6 uses of channel energy. Each time a class ability is used this way it also uses up a bardic performance use (so if the bard from above channelled energy it would use up 1 channel energy use and 1 bardic performance use).
Mimick Only lasts for 1 round and all the negative effects of ending whatever ability the bard is mimicking still affect the bard (i.e. if he mimicked a barbarian greater rage, it would still only last one round and then the bard would be fatigued for 4 rounds).
My thoughts on making perform useful for all characters would go back to skill sinergy:
Perform{oratory} would give a bonus on diplomacy
Perform{acting} would give a bonus on bluff
Perform{music} would give a bonus to sound based perception checks
Perform{dancing} would give a bonus to acrobatics
Or you could just let these perform skills stand in for the skill I listed.
As cool as the 'different skills for different powers' sounds, I think it's a mechanically poor idea. Players have been complaining about having to spend 2 skill points under Beta, I can't imagine having to buy even more skills to get access to all of the bard powers.
And the mimic thing....please no. That's taking it too far. That'd be a cool PRC (and I think I've seen a FF tactics d20 conversion that's done that), but I think it's a bit much for the bard.
I disagree on it being a mechanically poor idea, wizards and clerics already get it. My thought would be if people saw where you had several to choose from it wouldn't feel like a tax so much (especially since I'm advocating KaeYoss's free perform rank per level idea with it).
I think pathfinder had the right idea in giving more performance choices, I just don't think they took it far enough.
The mimick was a cop out idea I admit, and something else could still go there.
IF you knew you could grab as many of them as you wanted it wouldn't seem so bad spending skill points on the extra (yes the wizard and cleric get their's free (wizard doesn't really) but the bard can have them all).
Well, I suppose it's not a terrible thing for bards to have to choose. Personally, I'd like to see one individual song per different performance type, but that limits choices too much. Maybe we need more magical instruments.
Magical equipment doesn't fix a base class though, look at the paladin and holy avenger weapon for proof of that.