I don't see anything in the rules that mentions whether or not you can combine Two Weapon Fighting with Flurry of Blows. Certainly the rules seem to imply that the Flurry use attacks from the primary and secondary hand (or both sides of a quaterstaff, etc.) But I don't see anything that explicitly disallows this combination. So can a 1st level monk with Two Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows make 3 attacks at -4?
we as a whole are awaiting clarification on this issue from the developers.
According to the FAQ, it is possible (definitely so concerning special monk weapons). According to the Sage, it is possible (definitely so concerning unarmed strikes).
It's just that these two have the stigma of inaccuracy attached to anything they say, whether on the money or not.
Director of Games
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This issue is an odd part of the rules, with two system essentially trying to do the same thing... sort of. The question comes down to this.. is flurry of blows a special action, in which case, you could not use it in conjunction with TWF. I tend to think that it is, but it is open to debate.
In either case, some clarification in the rules here is needed.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Personally I was of the opinion to let monk's have the extra swings, up until I saw vital strike and improved vital strike, with those feats added in a monk could become a real tiger when it comes to out damaging everyone else with two weapon fighting and flurry of blows.
However at the same time I go, "well if every limb is a weapon then monk's should qualify for multiattack" which has it's own problems too, like an attack with each limb giving them 4 attacks at level 1 (5 if you add in a headbutt).
Personally I was of the opinion to let monk's have the extra swings, up until I saw vital strike and improved vital strike, with those feats added in a monk could become a real tiger when it comes to out damaging everyone else with two weapon fighting and flurry of blows.
Not to worry -- a TWF, flurrying monk generally can't hit much of anything.
I agree -- the wording "there's no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk" is quite poor. Either say TWF is possible, or it isn't.
at low levels no they can't but when they get the full flury of blows, giving two extra attacks with no penalties and only taking - 2 for an extra attack, and having weapon finesse to apply a good dex bonus the can get into the area of having the follow base attacks (add in your flavor of bonuses)
+13 (ki power) +13 (flurry) + 13 (flurry 2) + 13 (primary) + 13 (secondary) + 8 (primary 2) + 8 (secondary 2) all for 4d10 damage.
IF they multiclass this could become even more.
I'm not saying it breaks the idea, just that we do need to consider these points.
When I picture a monk flurrying, he's using all the limbs/weapons in his arsenal. That, to me, seems as though it's special action to me. Flavorwise it seems wrong.
That said, I don't have a problem allowing the monk access to TWF and Flurry from a purely mechanical standpoint.
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Is it all that big a deal? If a monk uses a feat to make themselves cooler and better isn't that what the feat is for? Perhaps it is a bit more powerful than say taking Dodge. But remember they are taking another -2, a monk trying to make 3 attacks but taking -4 is just as likely to hit less often and do less damage than they are to hit more and do more damage.
Besides, if you want to fear a monk, give them a reach weapon. They are then a 3.5 Spiked chain fighter without having to take most of the feats. They just need a a real good Dex,a decent str and Combat reflexes. They can take imp trip with their bonus feat and forget it.
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at low levels no they can't but when they get the full flury of blows, giving two extra attacks with no penalties and only taking - 2 for an extra attack, and having weapon finesse to apply a good dex bonus the can get into the area of having the follow base attacks (add in your flavor of bonuses)
+13 (ki power) +13 (flurry) + 13 (flurry 2) + 13 (primary) + 13 (secondary) + 8 (primary 2) + 8 (secondary 2) all for 4d10 damage.
IF they multiclass this could become even more.
I'm not saying it breaks the idea, just that we do need to consider these points.
Presumably at higher levels they'd need to be using heavily-enhanced monk weapons?
This issue is an odd part of the rules, with two system essentially trying to do the same thing... sort of. The question comes down to this.. is flurry of blows a special action, in which case, you could not use it in conjunction with TWF. I tend to think that it is, but it is open to debate.
In either case, some clarification in the rules here is needed.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I agree that it should be clarified.
I also agree that flurry and two-weapon fighting shouldn't work.
Flurry, to me, is using your fists, elbows, knees, feet, head, ponytail, rattail, stiff upper lip, and hardened eyelashes to shower the enemy with hurt. You use whatever is closest to the enemy. If that is one end of your staff or the other, so be it.
I think it doesn't fit together. If you can use TWF with flurry, why not Multiweapon Fighting? Get an extra attack for your off-hand, for your leg (one attack each), head......
My vote goes for flurry not working with TWF.
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I'd allow it because
a) If the flurry of misses problem gets solved I'd still like them to be able to do more damage and
b) TWF represents an additional expertise (in addition to the monk stuff); we could think of it as training that worked well with flurry of blows. Not the most convincing argument but I don't think that it's beyond the standard of "what we accept" in D&D.
The best TWF/Flurry build would be a Monk 12, Fighter 8.
BAB 16, qualifying for Improved Vital Strike.
Full Flurry capability.
Double dice unarmed damage (just hit the 2d6 mark).
Add in the extra feats for things like Medusa's Wrath, too.
Imagine the following in the right situation:
+14 (Ki), +14 (Flurry1), +14 (Flurry2), +14 (Medusa1), +14 (Medusa2), +14 (Primary1), +14 (Offhand1), +9 (Primary2), +9 (Offhand2), +4 (Primary3)
<Given Up: +4 (Offhand3), -1 (Primary4)>
With at least the Ki, Flurry, Medusa and Primary attacks all at 6d6 damage. If the offhand weapons need to be a separate weapon (which depends on how you read unarmed attacks, or the weapon swap feat anyways), they are at least 3d6 damage.
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Now granted a full Fighter is looking at +18/+18/+13/+13/+8 with his likely 3d8 damage weapon... as well as more feats and more access to things like Greater Weapon Spec and such.
Also, he'd have 3 points higher attack and damage from Weapon Training and Weapon Mastery under his belt, as well as a magically enhanced weapon (up to +10 enhancements worth, where unarmed can only get the +5 at higher gold cost ratio).
Also, he'd be able to buy up Medusa's Wrath too, but his unarmed damage wouldn't be that hot...
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In the end, it would basically be the difference between TONS of attacks at RIDICULOUS base damage (2d6 19-20/x2, +4d6)... or lots of near guaranteed attacks (+22 vs +15 with Fighter weapon training) with just stupid good damage (1d8 17-20/x3, +2d8, +magic weapon bonuses).
In general I agree that they should be able to twf+flurry.
However- some folks (in other threads) have suggested augmenting the Monk by allowing them to use their full monk damage with "monk weapons" in order to offset some of their martial weakness. IMO- the two of these abilities should /not/ be combined.
-S
Just for clarity, doesn't medusa require the opponent to be stunned dazed or something? That would mean that in some situations the monk would not be able to take advantage of those extra attacks.
I'm kind of ok with this from the point of view that the monk is a bit of a paper tiger.
However if he gets changed to the "combat manuevers guy" then I'm a bit less ok with it flavorwise.
On the base combo of TWF and Flurry of blows... well if TWF is balanced on its own and Flurry is balanced on its own it seems that putting them together should be balanced by the inherent in two weapon fighting and in flurry of blows.
Is it all that big a deal? If a monk uses a feat to make themselves cooler and better isn't that what the feat is for? Perhaps it is a bit more powerful than say taking Dodge. But remember they are taking another -2, a monk trying to make 3 attacks but taking -4 is just as likely to hit less often and do less damage than they are to hit more and do more damage.
That is as I understood it as well. The monk is taking an overall -4 to their primary attack bonus to get additional attacks from the TWF tree and combine them with flurry. Considering the Monk already has only a 3/4 BAB, doing so reduces the monk's chance to hit an additional 10% less.
Flurry of Blows already is called Flurry of Misses, since that first 10% less is enough to be a problem for Monks. Tacking an additional 10% onto the attack sequence causes rough numbers.
Let's assume a +5 amulet of mighty fists or Quarterstaff, and a level 16 Monk, and for simplicity assume no other buffs
+17,+17,+17,+13,+7 with normal flurry of blows. There is only a 50% chance he can hit AC 27 with his first 3 strikes in the flurry, or 4 with a Ki point, each strike, which seems to be the lower end of ACs around CR 16-18 in the SRD, belonging mostly to creatures who are not frontline opponents. The same AC will only be hit 75% of the time on the fourth strike. His last attack would only connect on 20.
Adding TWF to the mix means he can only hit AC 25 on a 50% basis. Within SRD, there is not a single creature that is not a full caster at this level which would be threated by someone who can only hit AC 25 50% of the time.
Taking a quick look through monsters from CR10 upward, the AC of monsters already seems to be a significant disincentive for the monk to layer the penalties for Flurrying and TWFing together.
A pure Monk 20 would have a helluva time pulling off TWF and Flurry combination in any serious manner (even with Vital Strike).
However, a Monk 12/Fighter 8 can do VERY well with this as he has a higher attack bonus, access to more feats (Imp Vital Strike) and attack bonus stuff (weapon focus, weapon training).
My numbers were a bit off before, he'd actually have a BAB of 17, meaning a +15 as his highest base attack.
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I ran some numbers in a "best case scenario" for the Monk/Fighter vs a TWF Fighter. I'm talking Str score 30, Haste and Greater Magic Weapon spell buffed, fully decked out weapon or amulet of mighty fists with flaming/frost/shocking/etc enhancements all over the place.
If the Monk gets his Medusa attacks in, he'll beat out the straight Fighter when both are pitted again an AC of up to 37. AC 38 and higher, the straight Fighter wins hands down.
If Power Attack in 3.5 version were allowed (modular instead of fixed), the straight fighter would compete at much lower ACs as well.
Without the Medusa attacks, the Monk/Fighter matches or is worse than the straight Fighter, even without using 3.5 Power Attack.
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Keep in mind, the Monk/Fighter getting all the feats necessary to compete like this, would have to spend 13 out of his 15 feats: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Double Slice, TWRend, WF, WSpec, Imp Crit, Scorpion, Gorgon, Medusa, Vital Strike, and Imp Vital Strike.
That doesn't leave much room for any other character options. Kind of a one-trick pony.
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Now if some changes were made to make the Monk more "equipment friendly" (such as monk weapons using unarmed damage, monk clothing allowed to be enhanced like armor, etc), then it might be time for a new clause in Flurry writing out the option for TWF.
My problem with stacking TWF and Flurry isn't how well the monk does or doesn't do on it's own, it's the way that many attacks per round affects the bonuses the monk is getting from other characters. There is a reason most other effects that grant additional attacks (such as haste, weapon of speed, etc.) don't stack.
Lets see, at a realistic level, probably the worst is a Monk(11)/Fighter(3). Total BAB 11, so the base routine is going to be +11/+6/+1. A monk of 11th level going to be getting 3 additional attacks at no penalty from flurry if they use a ki point. Add in greater two weapon fighting, and you're talking 5 additional attacks, on top of the characters base of 3. Add in boots of haste for 1 more, and we're at +9/+9(haste)/+9(twf)/+9(flurry)/+9(flurry)/+9(ki flurry)/+4/+4(imp.twf)/+1/+1(g.twf)
The loss in attack bonus is _almost_ going to make that fair, almost. With monk's robes, the character is going to be hitting for 2d8. At that level he probably has roughly a 24 STR, so lets say +7 to hit from Str, +1 from weapon focus, and +3 from an amulet of mighty fists. So...
+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7
Now, all that is pretty nasty, I mean, with vital strike you're doing 9 attacks for 4d8+10, but what really breaks it is that any buff effect is multiplied across all of those attacks. A bard inspiring courage or debuffing your opponents is going to add a _lot_ more damage to this monk than any other character possible at that level.
That's the reason these shouldn't stack, because it makes balancing other abilities very tricky. Anything that's balanced and appropriate as a buff in the hands of normal characters can become degenerate and abusive in combination with a character that has that many attacks.
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My problem with stacking TWF and Flurry isn't how well the monk does or doesn't do on it's own, it's the way that many attacks per round affects the bonuses the monk is getting from other characters. There is a reason most other effects that grant additional attacks (such as haste, weapon of speed, etc.) don't stack.
That's the reason these shouldn't stack, because it makes balancing other abilities very tricky. Anything that's balanced and appropriate as a buff in the hands of normal characters can become degenerate and abusive in combination with a character that has that many attacks.
I see your point here, and I will say it is quite persuasive. I am still a little dubious about this being overpowered, having seen several monks in my games and noticing that even though they can toss the damage around quiite impressively one way or another, they are still balanced in other ways. The penalties to hit (assuming that their BAB progression doesn't move) plus the monks other liabilities leave me still believing that as a whole the class is ok. After all they may toss a lot of dice of damage, but they still can't take hits and are usualy (I know that it is easy to imagine a scenario otherwise) lower AC than the tanker classes.
In Official FAQ, yes.. you could use TWF with Flurry.
I think the discussion at this point was to decide how Pathfinder should treat it, in that is it balanced in the new system (where you get additional attacks through Medusa's Wrath and Ki ability, and other misc power creep).
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If unarmed strike could be fully treated the same as weapons for the Monk (cost the same to enhance, and have the same upper limit of +10 enhancemnts), then I'd be more for Flurry being worded as "The Monk's TWF, only better", and specifically preclude the use of TWF along with it.
If unarmed strike could be fully treated the same as weapons for the Monk (cost the same to enhance, and have the same upper limit of +10 enhancemnts), then I'd be more for Flurry being worded as "The Monk's TWF, only better", and specifically preclude the use of TWF along with it.
They just about can, they could already be enhanced with any spell that worked on natural or manufactured weapons, and now the Amulet of Mighty Fists explicitly can be enchanted with weapon special abilities (actually, it's even a little cheaper, since you don't need an initial +1, so if you just want the ability...)
However a regular weapon can be a +1 Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Vicious, Holy, Bane of Speed... and then have a "Greater Magic Weapon" tossed on it.
While the Monk's amulet can only have a Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Holy enhancement, with a Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang tossed on him.
Or if those spells get tweaked to not allow that... the weapon can be enhanced as a +5 weapon AND have a ton of enhancements all over it, while the Monk's unarmed is stuck at a +5 limit on his Amulet.
Quite simply, it's just a matter of +5 cap vs +10 cap. "Needing" a +1 still leaves a 4 point gap between the two.
If flurrying is a "special action," not useable with TWF, then can we make it so that the extra attacks can be made as part of a standard action? That way the monk has a place of his own: he's a mobile combatant. As it is, he can either move or flurry. Moving opens him up to all kinds of AoO if he's not exceptionally careful about where he's going, and attacking without moving afterwards makes him dead: he has low hp (d8 HD and often low Con due to multiple attribute dependency) and a low BAB. As one of the players in our playtest put it, "the monk is an NPC class!"
Currently, a 8th level monk can move 50 ft. and make one attack at +6, or move 5 ft. and make 3 attacks at +5/+5/+0 (or 2 attacks at +6/+1). But what if he could move 50 ft. and make 2 attacks at +5/+5 (his normal attack and his flurry attack)? All of the sudden the monk becomes a MUCH more interesting class to play.
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If flurrying is a "special action," not useable with TWF, then can we make it so that the extra attacks can be made as part of a standard action? That way the monk has a place of his own: he's a mobile combatant.
I wouldn't want that niche dedicated to the Monk, though, as I want all melees (particularly the fighter) to have the chance to become more mobile in combat (principally being able to move and make iterative attacks, but with some given up for the amount moved).
I wouldn't want that niche dedicated to the Monk, though, as I want all melees (particularly the fighter) to have the chance to become more mobile in combat (principally being able to move and make iterative attacks, but with some given up for the amount moved).
I agree completely, but introducing that big a shift in combat mechanics all at once, as it were, might be difficult. My thought was that if the monk idea gets tested and works out well, it would be easier to expand the concept to other classes. Then when people see a combat feat that does the same thing, hopefully they say, "oh, kinda like the monk flurry thing! Cool!" instead of saying "this lets you do what?!"
However a regular weapon can be a +1 Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Vicious, Holy, Bane of Speed... and then have a "Greater Magic Weapon" tossed on it.
While the Monk's amulet can only have a Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Holy enhancement, with a Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang tossed on him.Or if those spells get tweaked to not allow that... the weapon can be enhanced as a +5 weapon AND have a ton of enhancements all over it, while the Monk's unarmed is stuck at a +5 limit on his Amulet.
Quite simply, it's just a matter of +5 cap vs +10 cap. "Needing" a +1 still leaves a 4 point gap between the two.
Ah good point, I also hadn't noticed just how much more expensive the amulet is than a standard weapon enchant. That seems particularly lame considering Bracers of Armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities for much less than actual armor.
If flurrying is a "special action," not useable with TWF, then can we make it so that the extra attacks can be made as part of a standard action? That way the monk has a place of his own: he's a mobile combatant. As it is, he can either move or flurry. Moving opens him up to all kinds of AoO if he's not exceptionally careful about where he's going, and attacking without moving afterwards makes him dead: he has low hp (d8 HD and often low Con due to multiple attribute dependency) and a low BAB. As one of the players in our playtest put it, "the monk is an NPC class!"
Currently, a 8th level monk can move 50 ft. and make one attack at +6, or move 5 ft. and make 3 attacks at +5/+5/+0 (or 2 attacks at +6/+1). But what if he could move 50 ft. and make 2 attacks at +5/+5 (his normal attack and his flurry attack)? All of the sudden the monk becomes a MUCH more interesting class to play.
ToB Snap Kick. It's what the Flurry of Blows should've been. Rewriting the Monk's FoB to be Snap Kick (but with unarmed strikes AND special monk weapons) and with an extra attack tacked on at 11th level, and then leaving Snap Kick as the lesser feat-version, available to anyone who takes the feat would do exactly this.
+1 vote for Meepo's suggestion. Works better than my "use the ToB's Snap Kick" idea, and it wouldn't have any copyright problems.
Yes! Meepo is absolutely firing on all cylinders when it comes to monks. I hope Jason Bulmahn appoints him Special Consultant for the final Pathfinder monk, or at least weighs his posts extra-heavily.
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---Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk can make an unarmed strike attack as a swift action. This attack uses the monk's full base attack bonus, but suffers a -2 penalty. Starting at 5th level, this penalty is reduced to -1, and it is dropped altogether at 9th level.
Starting at 11th level, the monk can choose to instead make two unarmed strike attacks as a single swift action. Both of these attacks use the monk's full base attack bonus.
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Note that the above version of flurry of blows has several advantages over the original:
(1) It is a clearly-defined, self-contained action; no more flurry plus two-weapon fighting headaches.
(2) It eliminates the need for a "special monk weapon" designation by having flurry add extra unarmed strikes into any attack routine instead of granting extra attacks with certain weapons as a special action.
(3) It grants monks a much-needed pounce-like ability, since they can charge and activate flurry of blows in the same round; the monk could still be given an ability to spend ki points to temporarily gain the actual pounce ability in full.
(4) It gives monks of all levels more tactical options, making the class more fun.Also, note that there is a precedent for character having an ability like the one described above; a 2nd-level raging barbarian with the animal fury rage power can make bite attacks as a swift action. Allowing monks to do something similar ability shouldn't be unreasonable, especially if it simplifies the flurry of blows ability in the process.
Wow. I love it! That is an awesome way to incorporate flurry into a monk and make it useful!
I hope to see more of this.
I love Meepo's flurry of blows idea. It makes things much simpler :)
That said, I would apply the flurry penalty to all attacks that rounds, a la TWF.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk can make an unarmed strike attack as a swift action. This attack uses the monk's full base attack bonus, but suffers a -2 penalty. Starting at 5th level, this penalty is reduced to -1, and it is dropped altogether at 9th level.
Starting at 11th level, the monk can choose to instead make two unarmed strike attacks as a single swift action. Both of these attacks use the monk's full base attack bonus.
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Note that the above version of flurry of blows has several advantages over the original:
(1) It is a clearly-defined, self-contained action; no more flurry plus two-weapon fighting headaches.
(2) It eliminates the need for a "special monk weapon" designation by having flurry add extra unarmed strikes into any attack routine instead of granting extra attacks with certain weapons as a special action.
(3) It grants monks a much-needed pounce-like ability, since they can charge and activate flurry of blows in the same round; the monk could still be given an ability to spend ki points to temporarily gain the actual pounce ability in full.
(4) It gives monks of all levels more tactical options, making the class more fun.Also, note that there is a precedent for character having an ability like the one described above; a 2nd-level raging barbarian with the animal fury rage power can make bite attacks as a swift action. Allowing monks to do something similar ability shouldn't be unreasonable, especially if it simplifies the flurry of blows ability in the process.
Well, I'm generally bit iffy on adding more swift actions, they seem to be creeping in a lot of places already, but that's not bad.
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I know this isn't exactly on topic, but why hasn't anyone suggested that flurry of blows be considered a combat maneuver exclusive to the monk class, thus allowing him to gain the use of his third level maneuver training ability and function as though he were a fighter when using the maneuver? I'm not sure how it would it actually pan out but it has to be worth trying out to see if it works. It's just a suggestion
I know this isn't exactly on topic, but why hasn't anyone suggested that flurry of blows be considered a combat maneuver exclusive to the monk class, thus allowing him to gain the use of his third level maneuver training ability and function as though he were a fighter when using the maneuver? I'm not sure how it would it actually pan out but it has to be worth trying out to see if it works. It's just a suggestion
That sounds like an exceptionally cool idea that, unfortunately, won't get used because of mechanical considerations. It would be easy to rewrite the relevant column in the monk class table, but what about the following: