As bardic music is THE cornerstone bard ability, why can a 1st-level bard use it only once per day? Spellcasters can cast unlimited 0-level spells, fighters can swing swords as many times as they want, and there's no cap to the number of pockets a rogue can pick in a 24-hour period. Please, give the bard some love.
Agreed. Maybe adding the bard's CHA bonus would work, or having some feat that gives an extra 2 uses per day, would work.
Adding Cha bonus to uses/day sounds like an excellent idea. That +1/+1 is rather minor enough, too minor to warrant being restricted to 1/day.
Adding the Cha bonus to uses/day would also go a long ways toward making Cha more useful for the Bard, as beyond bonus spells/day, a Bard is often better off investing in Strength or Dexterity, something the Bard can use to wade into melee or shoot a bow. Currently, the Bard's buffing songs don't require Cha at all! An 8-Cha bard can Inspire Courage just as well as a 20-Cha one!
-Matt
Agreed. Maybe adding the bard's CHA bonus would work, or having some feat that gives an extra 2 uses per day, would work.
I'm in favor of adding the charisma bonus. I agree, once per day per level is too little.
Agreed. Maybe adding the bard's CHA bonus would work, or having some feat that gives an extra 2 uses per day, would work.
When I expressed my concern to another DM/player in my group (we rotate DMing duties) he said every 1st-level bard should take the Extra Music feat. Response: no character should be jacked into a feat just so he or she can get an adequate number of uses of his or her primary ability. My rule from that point: you get a number of bardic music uses per day equal to your bard level OR your Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. I would even be willing to add them together. My point is, it should be changed in the published rules.
I tend to agree as well. Make bardic uses dependent on Charisma.
Agreed. Maybe adding the bard's CHA bonus would work, or having some feat that gives an extra 2 uses per day, would work.
I second both suggestions.
I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but you did take the most extreme example. A 20th level bard has rediculous amounts of songs per day, and I think once you hit 5th level, you largely don't have to worry about not having enough bardic music.
Creative Director
|
I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but you did take the most extreme example. A 20th level bard has rediculous amounts of songs per day, and I think once you hit 5th level, you largely don't have to worry about not having enough bardic music.
True... but a 20th level bard has a lot more things to do with his bard music. Adding Charisma bonus is a pretty good idea, though; I'll make sure to bounce the idea off Jason if he doesn't notice this thread.
|
Director of Games
|
Hey there all,
I think a Cha bonus to the number of uses might be cool, but I am a little concerned about class dipping to get a number of uses of bardic music before moving on to another class. That said, most of these abilities do not scale unless you take more levels in bard, so this might be ok.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I like the CHA ideal. An extra bardic music feat would help as well. As for dipping I think thats a flaw with the multi-classing system and not just with the classes that get dipped. I think that it's self needs looked at hard to see just how to stop the abuse for that system
Adding Cha would make bard an attractive 1-level dip for a paladin, if they could work around the alignment thing: -1 BAB in exchange for inspire courage 4/day? Sign me up! The thing is, thematically-speaking, those abilities really nicely compliment the paladin's aura of courage, so as DM I'd probably actually ENCOURAGE paladin players to take the bard dip.
A sorcerer, on the other hand, won't want to give up a level of spellcasting just for that ability, so I don't think we'll see much dipping from them. And for everyone else, Cha is usually too low to make it worthwhile.
Therefore, on the whole I see no problem.
Hey there all,
I think a Cha bonus to the number of uses might be cool, but I am a little concerned about class dipping to get a number of uses of bardic music before moving on to another class. That said, most of these abilities do not scale unless you take more levels in bard, so this might be ok.
Thoughts?
The Bard1 songs are so minor already. The problem we're addressing is that even a straight-classed Bard has trouble budgeting his rather minor buff effects in the baby levels. In fact, if a non-Bard added Bard1 to his build... Well, he'd have to have Charisma, the dumpstat for most PCs, in order to use Bardic Music more than 1/day, and his benefit would be very minor.
It would make Bard1 a bit more viable for a level-dip, as compared to the existing Rogue1 level dip, which grants two abilities that have unlimited uses per day (Trapfinding and Sneak Attack), as well as more skill points. Assuming the dipper has Charisma, while the Rogue-dipper has no stat requirements.
So if you hold the Bard1 dip up to the Rogue1 dip, this benefit to Bard1 is a very good thing, though it is still weaker than the Rogue1 dip (Less skill points, attribute requirement, no trapfinding, no sneak attack), with the exception of +2 Will and the ability to use some wands without Use Magic Device.
-Matt
Adding Cha would make bard an attractive 1-level dip for a paladin, if they could work around the alignment thing:
Actually, according to the Beta, alignment restrictions for bards are a thing of the past, so the alignment thing is moot.
However, I don't think 1st-level dip is a problem. Several levels of bard seem to be required to make bardic performance relevant at higher levels.
Actually, according to the Beta, alignment restrictions for bards are a thing of the past, so the alignment thing is moot.
Awesome! That bodes well for my "military commander" modelled using bard. And, like I said, I think it's cool for paladins to multiclass with bards.
|
Hey there all,
I think a Cha bonus to the number of uses might be cool, but I am a little concerned about class dipping to get a number of uses of bardic music before moving on to another class. That said, most of these abilities do not scale unless you take more levels in bard, so this might be ok.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Im of the mind that multiclassing is a total diferent issue that needs to be addressed seperately...
I like the idea of adding the cha bonus to how many bard songs/day a bard gets, and that is keeping with many of the other 3.5 'uses per day'
as far as class dipping...
a) you've gone a long way to entice folks to stay in one class with the additional abilities.
b) if you also place some sort of restrictions or lack of benefits to a character who multiclasses...of which there is already one- denying the favored class bonus.
Others could be- A) place a minimum score level to class dip- Barbarian/Ranger- Con, Bard/Sorceror- Cha, Cleric/Druid/Monk-Wisdom, Fighter/Paladin- Str, Rogue-Dex, Wizard-Int of say 16 to move to that class from a diferent class. As an example...I have a 2nd level fighter and I want to class dip to a Barbarian, I need a Con of 16 to pick up a Barbarian level.
-- or making a few class abilities only available to a single class character, or placing a limit on how many classes a character can have thats tied to scores...maybe Cha or Int, say 1/2 the ability bonus. Example: I have a character with a 13 Cha...I cant pick up any other class because 1/2 of +1 is +1/2...Id need a 14-15 to pick up an additional class....
I have other ideas on this, but I will wait til we talk about PRC's and I assume multiclassing at that time...;)
A bard/paladin multiclass would make a REALLY cool character, the more I think of it...
I agree (Although my view may be biased, because I played one in 3.5 and had a blast with it -- where were those Pathfinder paladin rules then?).
Hell, no. Let's not go back to the archaic 2nd Edition paradigm where you needed specific stats to multiclass or dual-class!
|
|
Hey there all,
I think a Cha bonus to the number of uses might be cool, but I am a little concerned about class dipping to get a number of uses of bardic music before moving on to another class. That said, most of these abilities do not scale unless you take more levels in bard, so this might be ok.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
agreed, the 3.0 bard was broken, you could get the 1st tlevel then continue in other classes
since 3.5 and now in pathfinder, linking both rank and the level to the bardic abilities is enough to stop class dipping...
but indeed a single class bard even in 2nd level has too few bardic performance uses.
A bard/paladin multiclass would make a REALLY cool character, the more I think of it, especially if he takes Perform (oratory).
Or maybe Perform (wind instruments) if you wanna make a Roland type paladin who can blow his guts out his trumpet...
i would say... that makesa HELL (or HEAVEN?) of a General
Hey there all,
I think a Cha bonus to the number of uses might be cool, but I am a little concerned about class dipping to get a number of uses of bardic music before moving on to another class. That said, most of these abilities do not scale unless you take more levels in bard, so this might be ok.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Well then I would simply suggest you do what you did, unjustfabaly, to combat exp. feat. Make it bonus uses equal to class level or cha modifier, which ever is lower.
I think this is a great idea, and it is bolstered by other class abilities that use a "1 + relevant ability modifier" formula to figure out "times per day."
The problem with that is, by the time the bard reaches mid- to high-level, he'd have fewer uses per day. And more abilities on which to spend them.