Since 16th level is the high-end of where the current Paizo Adventure Paths are going to end up at, I will go ahead and do a hypothetical examination of these 3 classes at said level. This will be done along the lines of what I've typically seen in 3rd edition play taking into account, obviously, only the Pathfinder Beta rules set.
For this comparison's purpose, all that matters is raw attack and damage capability.
"Buff" spells of 9th level are not factored in, as I am presuming that the GM has not (yet) gone completely insane and permitted the characters access to such magic. That having been said, naturally his buddies want Lenny to succeed in killing everything he can, so they layer on the following "buff" spells in the one round they have before letting go of the leash:
Greater Heroism = +4 morale bonus on attack rolls (among others).
Haste = +1 bonus on attack rolls and the all-important extra attack at the best bonus on a full attack action.
Prayer = +1 luck bonus on attack rolls & weapon damage rolls (the other stuff is gravy for this example).
Total bonuses are the extra attack at best bonus, +6 attack, +1 damage.
Lenny the Barbarian
Lenny started play with a combined Strength of 20 (18 +2 race) then dumped all 4 level advancement points into Strength as well, for a "nekkid" STR of 24. At 16th level, for offensive purposes, he's packing a +6 Girdle of Giant Strength (giving him a 30 STR so far) and a +4 Greatsword. He of course has a Base Attack Bonus of +16. Feats that matter for this example are Weapon Focus (Greatsword) (1st level), Power Attack (3rd level), Overhand Chop (5th level), Backswing (7th level), Improved Critical (Greatsword) (9th level), Vital Strike (11th level) and Devastating Blow (13th level). Lenny would have Improved Vital Strike, but alas that has to wait until 17th level for Lenny the Barbarian.
So far, Lenny without buffs isn't too scary. Attack bonus totals up to +31/+26/+21/+16 (16 BAB +1 weapon focus +10 STR +4 enhancement). Being a two-handed weapon, Lenny's Greatsword deals 2d6+19 slashing damage (+15 STR, +4 enhancement), threatening a critical hit on 17-20/x2.
However, factoring the buff spells above, Lenny the Barbarian is now sitting pretty at +37/+32/+27/+22/+37 doing 2d6+20, 17-20/x2. Then of course, being a 16th level Barbarian and all, he Rages. Which is Greater Rage at this point, ramping his STR to a 36 (+13 modifier), giving him +40/+35/+30/+25/+40 doing 2d6+24 slashing (19 STR +4 enhancement +1 luck), 17-20/x2. In and of itself, this attack sequence hits the average AC - assuming 10's on all 5 attack rolls - of anything considered a CR 18 or less, dealing an average of 31 points per hit. Statistically, one of those five will be a confirmed critical hit. Thus, in a single full attack, without exercising Power Attack or anything else, he deals out an average of 186 hit points. All by himself Lenny kills an average 300 hp CR 18 critter in two rounds.
For the sake of simplicity, Lenny the Barbarian just so happens to be sitting within reach of the BBEG of the moment. He wisely elects to go ahead and unload a full attack action on the sorry bastard right next to him, being the BBEG and all. The only Rage Power that will matter is Powerful Blow, which when delivered tags on an additional 16 points of damage with whatever hit it is that he elects to burn his swift action for the round on.
Now, the optimum damage output scenario is a combination of Vital Strike (cashiering his +25 AB attack to add +2d6 bonus damage per hit for his other 4, higher bonus, attacks) and Backswing (which increases his STR damage bonus from +13 to +39 - a gain of +20 damage on the first attack). This yields an attack sequence of 40/35/30/40 dealing 4d6+44 on the first attack & 4d6+24 on the remaining three. Assuming
average damage, a Powerful Blow on that Backswing (4d6+60) and no confirmed critical hits yields an averaged damage output total of 188 hit points. If the first swing is a confirmed critical hit (6d6+120!) then the averaged damage output total increases to 255 hit points (+67). If a "lesser" blow is a confirmed critical hit (6d6+48) then the averaged damage output total increases to 219 hit points (+31).
Finally, packing a whalloping +13 STR modifier, Lenny goes all out and decides to Power Attack, cashiering 13 points of attack bonus for a nasty +26 damage bonus. Altogether, Lenny is now packing a full attack sequence of +27/+22/+17/+27 doing 4d6+50 slashing <average damage of 64 hit points per hit>, 17-20/x2. On the first swing due to Backswing, however, that damage bonus is +70, which Lenny is going to go ahead and dump his Powerful Blow on the first swing, ramping that bad boy up to 4d6+86 damage <which will average a whopping 100 hit points>. The first attack, if it confirms a critical hit, deals 6d6+172 hit points, whilst the remaining attacks deal 6d6+100 hit points on a confirmed critical hit.
Presuming he is swinging at the same AC 35 CR 18 opponent, Lenny is making a calculated risk doing this. He will probably connect on the first and last swing (needing only a natural 8 or higher), but probably won't on the second (needing a natural 13+ on the d20) and almost certainly will not on the third (needing a natural 18+ on the d20). Even so, with just the first and fourth attack connecting on average damage Lenny almost reaches his non-Power Attack average, totalling without a confirmed critical hit 164 hit points.
However, the odds of successfully confirming any critical hits are smaller than the odds of simply connecting due to the required 'natural' qualifying attack roll - but sooner or later he WILL confirm that critical hit, probably sooner than the GM would like.
From a 'number crunching' standpoint, one could multiply averaged damage by various percentages (65% for attacks 1 and 4, 40% for attack 2 and 15% for attack 3) then factor in that about 2 attacks every 5 rounds are going to confirm the critical - a daunting task.
In summary, Lenny the Barbarian WILL kill - given two only full-round attacks to do so - a CR 18 opponent in two rounds all by himself with only 3 commonly available "buff" spells and comparatively ordinary gear. All his buddies have to do is control the battlefield enough for him to be able to do it.
Which at that level of play is not exactly a guarantee... but it bears remembering!
Turin, you've gone to a lot of work on these. Full props to you. Do you favor the barbarian or the fighter in a straight up fight with/or/ without buffs in place?
Turin, you've gone to a lot of work on these. Full props to you. Do you favor the barbarian or the fighter in a straight up fight with/or/ without buffs in place?
Take a look at the other 2 "Comparisons". Part 2 is the Fighter, Part 3 is the Ranger.
I would probably slightly favor the Fighter over the Barbarian due to the former's substantially greater flexibility.
(edited, for link to correct thread)
Turin:
Did you take into account the thread which details Jason's revisions of the (Beta) Barbarian rage abilities? *link*
As I recall, the one Rage Power in question didn't change in the mechanics between the hardcopy and the "please test this" ability as far as damage output goes.
I do agree with Jason Bulmahn's revision to reduce the bookkeeping, but the drawback is that it makes the Rage *much* more powerful, as very few of the Rage Powers have the Rage Point consumption to keep their useage in check. By and large, the latter is the only thing that kept most of them reasonable...
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From a 'number crunching' standpoint, one could multiply averaged damage by various percentages (65% for attacks 1 and 4, 40% for attack 2 and 15% for attack 3) then factor in that about 2 attacks every 5 rounds are going to confirm the critical - a daunting task.
Since Lenny here is fairly straightforward, the number crunching shouldn't be that hard. I think I'll run a complete expected damage chart against AC for each of his modes of attack and post the results here tomorrow morning.
Just eyeballing these numbers, I think that Vital Strike may still be a better bet than going with Power Attack at AC 35. With Vital Stike you've already maxed the damage contributions from the first and extra attacks by AC 42 and the second attack by AC 37. With Power Attack the first and extra attacks are still ramping up until they reach their max at AC 29. I'd estimate that Power Attack may not come into its own until AC 31 or 32. Once I run the numbers I'll know for certain.
Sam
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Because I said that I would...
You've wondered about how often crits would be confirmed during this fight against an AC35 creature? Unleashing his regular full attack Lenny will have a 60.3% chance of confirming at least one critical by the end of his first round and a 84.2% chance of confirming one or more criticals within his first two rounds. If he goes with Vital Strike those chances will drop slightly to 55.4% within one round and 80.1% within two rounds. So, yeah, sooner rather than later. If you don't confirm a crit within those first two rounds you certainly know that luck has gone against you. ;)
If Lenny opts for a full attack with Power Attack he's looking at a 32.1% chance of confirming at least one crit in the first round and a 53.9% chance of confirming a crit within the first two rounds. If he Power Attacks with his Vital Strike those chances will drop to 31.9% and 53.7% respectively. If you don't get a crit within the first two rounds, well, that's how it goes. Don't bank on that one. ;)
Anyway, I promised to run the numbers. What follows will be links to some graphs of Expected Damage vs AC for the character that Turin the Mad has kindly provided here. The numbers take into account all the buffs and feats that he's listed here. They also take the chances of confirming criticals into account.
I'll start with the standard attacks. Lenny moves up to some unfortunate creature and thumps it:
Lenny the Barbarian, 16th Level, Standard Attacks
Devastating Blow looks to be a very good feat for a character like Lenny. From AC 30 on down Power Attacking with a Devastating Blow will more likely achieve the best results. From AC 31 to AC 45 Devastating Blow is clearly the best option. At AC 46 or above Lenny should just run^h^h^h fall back on using Overhand Chop up until AC 59 where Power Attacking with a Devastating Blow will make the better hail mary attack. There is no AC where Power Attacking with Overhand Chop will be a good option.
On to the full attacks:
Lenny the Barbarian, 16th Level, Full Attacks
Vital Strike looks like an adequate feat for a character like Lenny. For AC 25 and below the traditional Power Attack is the best bet. From AC 26 up to AC 32 Power Attacking with Vital Strike is most likely to give better results. From AC 33 up to AC 58 Vital Strike is probably the way to go. If Lenny is stuck against a critter with AC 59 or better he may as well Power Attack.
Here I advance Lenny up to 17th Level and take a look at Improved Vital Strike. Otherwise identical to what Turin the Mad has posted:
Lenny the Barbarian, 17th Level, Full Attacks
It's almost identical to the level 16 graph except shifted up by one AC and the addition of curves for Improved Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike Power Attack.
Improved Vital Strike doesn't improve on Vital Strike until AC 45. This is an epic level AC, well above what a character like this will typically encounter at this level. This feat isn't a good choice for a character like Lenny.
As for Lenny Power Attacking with Improved Vital Strike... That would be about as useful as boobs on a dragonborn.
Some of you may have noted a knot around where the Power Attack curves and the Vital Strike curve cross the vanilla full attack curve around AC 33. This is just an accident of how the numbers interact and not a feature of these kind of graphs. I've run these calculation for over 20 characters recently(and I can't make Improved Vital Strike good for any of them) and the Vital Strike and Power attack intersections can be spread out over a wide range of ACs.
In the next day or two I may look at running these numbers for Turin's Fighter character.
Sam
Impressive work Sam, VERY impressive!
Nothing like statistics to make things scary, eh?
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Impressive work Sam, VERY impressive!
Thanks, but this kind of thing isn't really that big a deal. It can be a little tedious if you use a spreadsheet, but becomes easy if you use something like Perl, Python or Ruby. I prefer Python. Check it out.
Nothing like statistics to make things scary, eh?
Heh. Numbers aren't scary. They're fuzzy and comforting like little kittens.
Anyway, I haven't taken a good look at Lenny the Fighter yet. I think I'll head over to that thread and take a closer look.
Sam
Your graphs seem to demonstrate nicely that this sample Barbarian can reliably frag, all on his own (admittedly, only in melee) a CR 18 creature in two full round attacks.
Based on what I've seen in play, especially in the Savage Tide campaign (having more 'typical' creatures of the higher CR range than the routinely much harder to kill critters tagged with the same CR in the Age of Worms as far as what the player characters generally had to face down), a group that sufficiently protected thier roster with Pathfinder Beta rules can reasonably expect to handle a CR 18 as a relatively 'routine' encounter.
In other words, with a suitably melee-focussed Bubba (such as good old Lenny here) it is my belief that the Beta rules' "generic CR" stuff underestimates the killing power of a typical adventuring party. Statistics on this matter of course I have not yet made the time to go rooting around for.
Focussed fire, which with a smaller player group should be easier to achieve, will I am guesstimating routinely slaughter CR 18 foes at a 'mere' 16th level. The only caveat I can make as a matter of course are going to be 'as written' Disjunctions that make a sodding wreck of the typical 3.5 adventuring party.
Disjunction as it stands in both 3.5 and PFRPG Beta is a time-consuming spell to execute at the table, especially at the higher levels of play with SO many magical goodies being toted around by the players. Worse, due to the saving throw required, it stands a high chance of success against the low Will save characters (DC minimum being a 23). However, this latter is best saved for another, later discussion thread...