And in your example, yes in Round 2 the Barbarian could not take ANY Swift Action (Rage Power OR OTHERWISE), though they COULD take another Immediate Action, which of course prevents any Swift Actions in Round 3...
Oi - peeps, immediate actions aren't that hard. And "rounds" do not matter.
Three simple rules:
1 - If you use an immediate action *before* your turn, it counts as your swift action for that next turn. You can't use a swift action before your turn.
2 - If you use an immediate action *on* your turn, you have used a swift action. If you use a swift action on your turn you're done with swift actions until your turn ends.
3 - If you use an immediate action *after* your turn, see Rule 1, because that's before your next turn. You can only use swift actions on your turn.
You cannot use an immediate and swift action on your turn, no matter the order.
You cannot use an immediate action between your turns, and still use an immediate action *on* your next turn - that would be a swift action, and you've already used it up.
If you need to think of it in "Rounds", use this:
1 - You get *only* one swift action per round, and immediate actions count as swift actions.
2 - Your current round ends at the end of your turn, and a new one begins. Thus, after the end of your turn, you can always use an immediate action, because it's a new "round".
Edit: I agree - most of the barbarian immediate action rage powers are for use with attacks of opportunity.
Hoo boy.
I'm unsure of whether I like this or the rage points system better. It seems like this could get a bit out of hand a first glance, but when you take into account that these Barbarians essentially aren't getting the +Con modifier rage points per level, and just being able to use these abilities at will (probably using about the same amount of points as if they had just actually used the abilities under the rage points system), it seems to balance out a little.
Still undecided which I'm going to use... might have to test both.
This is much better than the current Beta version, but I still don't like the flavor of a barbarian doing elemental damage with his weapons. Please remove the Elemental Rage power.I, on the other hand, think that there are flavors of barbarian for which the power is absolutely perfect, and I would very much like to see it remain.
I agree. The new powers have be too crippled and some are useless.
/Zark aka Tomjohn
wrote some good stuff
I agree with almost all you say, but not all. The new powers are not good enough.
Powerful Blow - underpowered/useless: + 1 to damage and +3 at level 18. A + 3 to damage at lvl 18 i silly a +1 to damage at lvl 1 - 5 i also silly. Only on one damage role. This power has been too crippeled and is now useless. Especially since the barbarian has to waste a swift action on this.
Surprise Accuracy - underpowered: + 1 to damage and +3 at level 18. Only on one role. This power has been too crippeled and is now almost useless.
Rolling Dodge and Guarded Stance: Both underpowered and useless: Both power has been too crippeled and are now useless. Especially since the barbarian has to waste a swift action on this and thus the barbarian can't use dodge the same round.
Dodge. "As a swift action, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC until your next turn. If you have 10 or more ranks in Acrobatics, the dodge bonus increases to +2."
So dodge, at lvl 10 it's +2 to ac against all attacks, melle and range attacks.
Roused Anger - how can this be used to enter a rage if rage power are used only while raging?
Swift Foot - I'd say this one sucks. It's now underpowered and useless. Don't stack with longstrider, haste, boots of speed.
Unexpected Strike: underpowered. "Once used, this power cannot be used again for 1 minute" = once per fight, not good enouge.
Moment of Clarity: underpowered (useless?): This power has been crippeled and is now almost useless. What's it good for? So a Barbarian can use magic device?
[...]Terrifying Howl now only applies to opponents who are ALREADY Shaken. Given that Intimidating Glare only applies to ONE opponent per Round, you are thus much more limited in the number of opponents you are likely to affect. I don't know if I like that.[...]
Agree with you, and I sure don't like it too.
[...]
Three simple rules:
1 - If you use an immediate action *before* your turn, it counts as your swift action for that next turn. You can't use a swift action before your turn.
2 - If you use an immediate action *on* your turn, you have used a swift action. If you use a swift action on your turn you're done with swift actions until your turn ends.
3 - If you use an immediate action *after* your turn, see Rule 1, because that's before your next turn. You can only use swift actions on your turn.
You cannot use an immediate and swift action on your turn, no matter the order.
You cannot use an immediate action between your turns, and still use an immediate action *on* your next turn - that would be a swift action, and you've already used it up.If you need to think of it in "Rounds", use this:
1 - You get *only* one swift action per round, and immediate actions count as swift actions.
2 - Your current round ends at the end of your turn, and a new one begins. Thus, after the end of your turn, you can always use an immediate action, because it's a new "round".
Edit: I agree - most of the barbarian immediate action rage powers are for use with attacks of opportunity.
Thanx now I got it.
:-)
Right, I skipped the middle pages of the thread, so apologies if this has been addressed.
Is there a reason for the bookkeeping-ey "fatigued for 2 rounds per round in combat" mechanic? How many combats really last long enough for this to be anything other than "fatigued until end of encounter," which is the 3.5 rule? Does anyone actually end rage after one round with enemies still standing?
In a nutshell, what's the intent: allow further rage in a long enough encounter, or lock it out?
Instead of duration tracking, how about one of the following: either "fatigued until she can rest uninterrupted for at least one minute," or "fatigued; she can end this condition by catching her breath, a full-round action which provokes attacks of opportunity."
Edit: Quick question regarding this thread's recent tangent - in 4th Edition they added the rule that you can trade a move action for a swift action, just as you can trade a standard for a move (which was actually a 3E house rule of mine). Does Pathfinder allow this, or are swifts something special that can't be done slowly?
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Right, I skipped the middle pages of the thread, so apologies if this has been addressed.
Is there a reason for the bookkeeping-ey "fatigued for 2 rounds per round in combat" mechanic? How many combats really last long enough for this to be anything other than "fatigued until end of encounter," which is the 3.5 rule? Does anyone actually end rage after one round with enemies still standing?
In a nutshell, what's the intent: allow further rage in a long enough encounter, or lock it out?
Instead of duration tracking, how about one of the following: either "fatigued until she can rest uninterrupted for at least one minute," or "fatigued; she can end this condition by catching her breath, a full-round action which provokes attacks of opportunity."
Edit: Quick question regarding this thread's recent tangent - in 4th Edition they added the rule that you can trade a move action for a swift action, just as you can trade a standard for a move (which was actually a 3E house rule of mine). Does Pathfinder allow this, or are swifts something special that can't be done slowly?
We've had a funny "rolling encounter" before, where my Gal here defeated 2 Dire Wolves, and some warewolf minions, but the Shaman of the tribe escaped into the layer, as we gave chase Galnorag was ensorcelled by a sorceress warewolf and lured into carnal pleasure of food and body, he came out of his rage, and was some what fatigued while he hoisted one of the fair ladies on to his shoulder and carried her off to have his way with her, when she transformed back into a hybrid form and attacked. I had raged for a couple of rounds and was still fatigued when she attacked and couldn't go into a rage immediately, by random coincidence I had carried her out of the chamber and into the shaman's chamber, so I was someone inconvenienced by the shaman and her attacks while fatigued and separated from the party. I survived, and the whole encounter left the table cracking up, but that's just one example of multiple rages in a combat. (I made sure to stop by the local priesthood and get decursed of any STL (sexually transmitted lycanthrope.)
Another example would be you run in screaming and slavering only to have all your foes take to the air. You can either sit there burning rage rounds, or come out of a rage and use a missile weapon while taunting your cowardly foes to meet you in combat. Or any similar example where you may exhaust reachable foes in battle, and pause while you attempt to reach your foe.
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[...]Terrifying Howl now only applies to opponents who are ALREADY Shaken. Given that Intimidating Glare only applies to ONE opponent per Round, you are thus much more limited in the number of opponents you are likely to affect. I don't know if I like that.[...]
Agree with you, and I sure don't like it too.
I think this one needs to stay as is, because while one barbarian alone might not be able to move a lot of people by himself. If it was combined with spells or other folks using the intimidate skill you could quickly clear the room.
My problem with
Unexpected Strike: underpowered. "Once used, this power cannot be used again for 1 minute" = once per fight, not good enouge.
Is not that it is underpowered, but that it is book keeping. It is as much calling it a 4e encounter power, without actually calling it that. So instead of just ticking it off and saying "used for the fight" I start making tic boxes waiting for it to come up again.
Frankly, I think you could make it "once per encounter" and then juice it up a little.
Is there a reason for the bookkeeping-ey "fatigued for 2 rounds per round in combat" mechanic? How many combats really last long enough for this to be anything other than "fatigued until end of encounter," which is the 3.5 rule? Does anyone actually end rage after one round with enemies still standing?
*Yes*, particularly at low levels when Rage points are few. If a single round of rage (or two) ends up wiping out the big opponent, but lots of little ones left, it's not worth burning those rage points to clean them up.
The tide could then turn again if reinforcements show up, among other things.
*Yes*, particularly at low levels when Rage points are few. If a single round of rage (or two) ends up wiping out the big opponent, but lots of little ones left, it's not worth burning those rage points to clean them up.
The tide could then turn again if reinforcements show up, among other things.
Okay, good case.
What do you think of my suggestion, then? (Fatigued until you take an action to "catch your breath" after rage, eliminating the round-by-round bookkeeping.)
[...] It should be noted that under this system, the greater forms of rage cost the same to maintain as the base rage.[...]
More accurately, there is no cost at all. And that is perhaps the main problem. Since there is no cost using the rage powers all powers have to be equally good or equally "just good enough".
Problem nr 2 is most powers are swift actions and that's not fair.
A Barbarian who wants the Mobility feat must pick Dodge. Adding 10 ranks to acrobatics it's a +2 dodge bonus when using. But using Dodge is a swift action. Using Rolling Dodge or Guarded Stance is also a swift action. So she can't use Dodge and Rolling Dodge/Guarded Stance and think she should.
And I'd say the Barbarian has a big AC problem. No heavy armor and no armor traing and -2 when rageing (and Mitharl armor is to be nerfed?).
This is only one example of the swift action problem. I don't see the fighter have to spend a swift action to activate armor training or gretaer weapon focus, weapon specialisation and weapon training. I think the Barbarian should be able to activate all, or some, of her range power as a free action...or at least maintaining all of them as a free action.
You know.. I loved the beta.. I bought the book almost solely for the rage points.. Kinda makes me sad a bunch of people to stupid to do simple math killed a neat idea and are making it much more likely I wont be buying the final version.
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You know.. I loved the beta.. I bought the book almost solely for the rage points.. Kinda makes me sad a bunch of people to stupid to do simple math killed a neat idea and are making it much more likely I wont be buying the final version.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but some of us prefer the non-point version of rage powers not because of the lack of math, but because the powers are more varied, and honestly more balanced. If only one aspect of one character class was enticing you into the beta mores the pity because the barbarian is a better class then 3.5 regardless of the point or no point system, but it is still only 1 of 10 improved classes, which is only 1 chapter of an altogether amazing rules update to D&D. If one feature isn't perfectly to your liking and that turns you sour from the whole system I'm sorry for your fickleness.
You know.. I loved the beta.. I bought the book almost solely for the rage points.. Kinda makes me sad a bunch of people to stupid to do simple math killed a neat idea and are making it much more likely I wont be buying the final version.I'm sorry you feel that way, but some of us prefer the non-point version of rage powers not because of the lack of math, but because the powers are more varied, and honestly more balanced. If only one aspect of one character class was enticing you into the beta mores the pity because the barbarian is a better class then 3.5 regardless of the point or no point system, but it is still only 1 of 10 improved classes, which is only 1 chapter of an altogether amazing rules update to D&D. If one feature isn't perfectly to your liking and that turns you sour from the whole system I'm sorry for your fickleness.
The Beta was perhaps to good, but this is not good enough. So in that aspect it's not more balanced it's just not as good as the beta.
VargrBoartusk. I agree with you but calling people stupid will get you into trouble and it isn't nice.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but some of us prefer the non-point version of rage powers not because of the lack of math, but because the powers are more varied, and honestly more balanced.
How are the powers more varied? Both systems use the exact same powers. The only difference is that the system presented in this thread made about half of them completely useless.
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I'm sorry you feel that way, but some of us prefer the non-point version of rage powers not because of the lack of math, but because the powers are more varied, and honestly more balanced.How are the powers more varied? Both systems use the exact same powers. The only difference is that the system presented in this thread made about half of them completely useless.
It made them balanced, and in making them balanced I wasn't obligated to take rage powers a, b, and c, but could create a character and guilt free select any of the powers knowing I wasn't making my character exceptionally weak.
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The Beta was perhaps to good, but this is not good enough. So in that aspect it's not more balanced it's just not as good as the beta.
VargrBoartusk. I agree with you but calling people stupid will get you into trouble and it isn't nice.
By not as good as beta do you mean the Barbarian isn't as uber powerful as the first draft of beta (this still being just another version of the beta?)
The point of PF wasn't to mega buff all the class, just to bring them up to the level of late 3.5 classes and prestige classes.
TomJohn, Mon, Jan 19, 2009, 10:17 AM
By not as good as beta do you mean the Barbarian isn't as uber powerful as the first draft of beta (this still being just another version of the beta?)
Yes. And I say the first draft of beta was too good, but this draft is simply not good enough.
Take Swift Foot.It's only active when when raging,
and uing it makes it impossible using other ranger powers
and it's a 5-foot enhancement bonus to the speed.
Now there is a feat that gives and always on bonus to speed and it's not an enhancement bonus.
"Fleet
You are faster than most.
Benefit: Your base speed increases by 5 feet. You lose the benefits of this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack."
Fighters get bonus feats - can take Fleet
Barbaians get rage power can take Swift Foot.
Balenced - I say not. It sucks.
The point of PF wasn't to mega buff all the class, just to bring them up to the level of late 3.5 classes and prestige classes.
Well I think this new version suck. And "bring them up to the level of late 3.5 classes and prestige classes". Wel, That might be true for the fighter, rogue and Paladin. But the Bard, Monk and Barbarian have not been brought "up to the level of late 3.5 classes and prestige classes". All the good stuff the fighter gets is not activatede by using swift action, thus they can all be used simultaneously.
And the fighter (and the Paladin) does not have the same AC problem. Yes I do think the Barbarian has a serious AC problem and I have not seen a fix yet.
It made them balanced, and in making them balanced I wasn't obligated to take rage powers a, b, and c, but could create a character and guilt free select any of the powers knowing I wasn't making my character exceptionally weak.
No, it made them useless. Moment of Clarity, for example, is utterly useless at once per minute. It'd be far more effective to simply take Roused Anger and stop and start your rage when you need to do things prohibited by rage. Surprise Accuracy is utterly useless with a bard in the party. Increased Damage Reduction requires six levels worth of investment now instead of shortening your rage time if you wanted to use it, which was MUCH more varied. Guarded Stance and Rolling Dodge are now debatably worse than the Dodge feat, which is one of the worst feats in the game still.
And so on. The powers were too good before, but they're way too weak now. There's maybe 6 that are truly useful. How's that "more varied and more balanced"?
Take Swift Foot.
It's only active when when raging,
and uing it makes it impossible using other ranger powers
and it's a 5-foot enhancement bonus to the speed.
Since the text of the new Rage power indicates that it is "Always in effect while raging", it apparently does *not* take a swift action to use, and can thus be used with other rage powers. This makes it one of the better options since it "stacks" with the others.
I agree though, as an enhancement bonus it's simply taking the place of the other (rather cheap) options for increasing speed (boots of striding and springing, any haste effect, etc.) That aspect makes it fairly weak in the long run (actually wouldn't be bad at 2nd, maybe 4th level). It *does* stack with the feat though, that's an interesting part of this.
It made them balanced, and in making them balanced I wasn't obligated to take rage powers a, b, and c, but could create a character and guilt free select any of the powers knowing I wasn't making my character exceptionally weak.No, it made them useless. Moment of Clarity, for example, is utterly useless at once per minute. It'd be far more effective to simply take Roused Anger and stop and start your rage when you need to do things prohibited by rage. Surprise Accuracy is utterly useless with a bard in the party. Increased Damage Reduction requires six levels worth of investment now instead of shortening your rage time if you wanted to use it, which was MUCH more varied. Guarded Stance and Rolling Dodge are now debatably worse than the Dodge feat, which is one of the worst feats in the game still.
And so on. The powers were too good before, but they're way too weak now. There's maybe 6 that are truly useful. How's that "more varied and more balanced"?
yes agree. And here is a little something to keep in mind.
A level 10 Barbarian. What's better?Guarded Stance (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against melee attacks for one round. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained.
[b)Rolling Dodge [/b] (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against ranged attacks for 1 round. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained.
[b)Dodge [/b] - Benefit: As a swift action, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to
your AC until your next turn. If you have 10 or more ranks
in Acrobatics, the dodge bonus increases to +2.
Let's see now.
a) Barbarian have 4 skill poits per level and Acrobatics as a class skil
b) Acrobatics can be used while rageing
b) Dodge + 10 ranks in Acrobatics = +2 vs all attacks
c) Rolling Dodge +2 vs. against ranged attacks
d) Guarded Stance +2 vs .against melee attacks
e) Dodge is 1 feat.
f) Rolling Dodge + Guarded Stance = 2 range powers
g) Rolling Dodge + Guarded Stance can not be used at the same time.
h ) Rolling Dodge + Guarded Stance can only be used when rangeing
i) Dodge can be used anytime.
conclusion? No need to write do I?
Take Swift Foot.
It's only active when when raging,
and uing it makes it impossible using other ranger powers
and it's a 5-foot enhancement bonus to the speed.Since the text of the new Rage power indicates that it is "Always in effect while raging", it apparently does *not* take a swift action to use, and can thus be used with other rage powers. This makes it one of the better options since it "stacks" with the others.
I agree though, as an enhancement bonus it's simply taking the place of the other (rather cheap) options for increasing speed (boots of striding and springing, any haste effect, etc.) That aspect makes it fairly weak in the long run (actually wouldn't be bad at 2nd, maybe 4th level). It *does* stack with the feat though, that's an interesting part of this.
lways in effect while raging. OK. my bad. But that don't change much since
a) Swift Foot stack with it self and with an enhancement bonus to speedb) Swift Foot is always on
And your point "It *does* stack with the feat though, that's an interesting part of this". Intressteing? well what fool would take spend 3 rage powers and one (or more) feats on boosting speed?
Haste +30 to speed
boots of striding and springing +10 to speed
longstrider +10 to speed enhancement bonus to the speed
why spend 2 rage powers on getting +10 enhancement bonus to the speed only when rageing when you can get in always on?
It sucks.
So you think actually it wouldn't be bad at 2nd, maybe 4th level. I'd say I don't agree. The Barbarian (of all tank classes) don't have a speed problem. Not at lower levels anyway. Wanna boost yor speed? Take the Fleet feat instead.
So you think actually it wouldn't be bad at 2nd, maybe 4th level. I'd say I don't agree. The Barbarian (of all tank classes) don't have a speed problem. Not at lower levels anyway. Wanna boost yor speed? Take the Fleet feat instead.
I generally agree with you here, however Barbarians are pretty shy on feats - only two by 4th level if not human. And there are so many they benefit from immensely - power attack&cleave, overhand chop, weapon focus&Dazzling display. I can see a barb not liking the options available at low levels and taking swift foot. Not *enjoying* that choice, but taking it as the best for them. That's all.
[A]lways in effect while raging. OK. my bad. But that don't change much since
a) Swift Foot stack with it self and with an enhancement bonus to speed
b) Swift Foot is always on
Sorry, I meant
a) Fleet stack with it self and with any enhancement bonus to speedb) Fleet is always on
I generally agree with you here, however Barbarians are pretty shy on feats - only two by 4th level if not human. And there are so many they benefit from immensely - power attack&cleave, overhand chop, weapon focus&Dazzling display. I can see a barb not liking the options available at low levels and taking swift foot. Not *enjoying* that choice, but taking it as the best for them. That's all.So you think actually it wouldn't be bad at 2nd, maybe 4th level. I'd say I don't agree. The Barbarian (of all tank classes) don't have a speed problem. Not at lower levels anyway. Wanna boost yor speed? Take the Fleet feat instead.
Yes you are right, so why punish them?
The fighter get a bonus feat at every even level and the barbarian get a rage power at every even level. So the fighter may take the fleet feat while the Barbarian has to settle with swift foot. Not a fair deal.
The fighter get a bonus feat at every even level and the barbarian get a rage power at every even level. So the fighter may take the fleet feat while the Barbarian has to settle with swift foot. Not a fair deal.
Outside of actual discussion of Swift Foot and whether it needs to be changed, this is not a valid argument.
Feats = Primary class feature of Fighter
Rage Powers = Secondary class feature of Barbarians.
They should not be equal.
That doesn't mean Swift Foot shouldn't match Fleet, during rage, but in general a rage power should not equal a feat. For instance, the rage power that grants an extra attack of opportunity < Combat Reflexes. These are mostly minor benefits being stacked on top of the Major benefit of Rage.
Whatever is done, it's important that Fleet + Swift Foot + haste/exped. retreat do not *all* stack. A barb running around with 100 speed is just nuts (30 + 10 fast + 15 swift + 15 fleet + 30 haste).
Outside of actual discussion of Swift Foot and whether it needs to be changed, this is not a valid argument.Feats = Primary class feature of Fighter
Rage Powers = Secondary class feature of Barbarians.
I don't agree.
Your forgetting armor and weapon training...and bravery. They all stack with everyting. At 13 level that's+3 to attack with primary weapon
+3 to damage with primary weapon
+3 to AC & max dex, armor check penalty
Heacy armor prof.
tower shield prof
At level 13 a barbarian have
-Improved uncanny dodge
-trap sense +4 (usefull - not)
-Greater rage +6 to str +3 moral bonus to wills saves, -2 to AC
-Damage reduction 3/
at lvl 20 thet get their 20-lvl ability. Let's look at them.
Barbarian
might rage. It's boosting the greater rage this way: a +2 boost to str and con and a +1 bost to will saves. Fantastic. (And obiously only when rageing).
Fighter:
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one
weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any
attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all
critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased
by 1 (a ×2 becomes a ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot
be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.
fair deal? Don't think so.
That doesn't mean Swift Foot shouldn't match Fleet, during rage, but in general a rage power should not equal a feat. For instance, the rage power that grants an extra attack of opportunity < Combat Reflexes. These are mostly minor benefits being stacked on top of the Major benefit of Rage.
"the Major benefit of Rage"? You mean the -2 penalty to AC or any of the other penalties or the fantastic +4 to str and con?
Fighter stuff = always on
Rage stuff = not always on.
Whatever is done, it's important that Fleet + Swift Foot + haste/exped. retreat do not *all* stack. A barb running around with 100 speed is just nuts (30 + 10 fast + 15 swift + 15 fleet + 30 haste).
yes sure, that's a major risk. A player spending three rage powers and three feet on boosting speed. And if he did? What's the problem?
But all this is just us debating one rage power. I think most of the powers are too nerfed.
From what I have seen in play with the PF Beta rules, Barbarians and Fighters as melee combatants roughly equal out in effectiveness. My observations go along these lines:
- Barbarians hit a LOT harder, Fighters are harder to hit.
- Barbarians are faster on their feet by at least 20' per round.
- Rage Powers and Fighter Feats come close to each other in tactical flexibility - the barbarians were the king of smash-em/knock-em-back/sundering maneuvers while the fighters are better suited to disarming and tripping with probably equivelant sundering effectiveness.
- All else being equal, the barbarian is harder to mentally control than the fighter.
- The fighter does more 'steady' damage per hit while the barbarian usually had one really BIG hit, mostly the first one of a given combat and/or round.
- Fighters are simply more flexible due to their feats, although they can certainly specialize.
- Barbarians are almost impossible to sneak attack with a full-attack-action and about as often have a higher flat-footed AC due to uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.
- Barbarians have more raw hit points - in standard melee combat, this is supposed to balance out with their innate DR against the fighter's higher AC. At high level play, the DR is of greater use than the AC of the fighter, as the fighter's touch AC is only - again, all else being equal - 2 points higher than a raging barbarian's. Where this matters far more is in shrugging off breath weapons, area-effect spells and just simple raw damage effects that rely on a saving throw rather than an AC.
- The barbarian/fighter build - mixing 2 levels of barbarian with future class levels devoted to fighter - is still hideously effective, perhaps even moreso in PF Beta than 3.5 d20.
[list]Barbarians are faster on their feet by at least 20' per round.
It's 10 feet. Usually this is not a big deal. ANd now we have the fleet feat.
Barbarians and Fighters as melee combatants roughly equal out in effectiveness
I don't agree. Fighters (and Paladins) still rule. and check out the new feats.
[list]Barbarians are faster on their feet by at least 20' per round.It's 10 feet. Usually this is not a big deal. ANd now we have the fleet feat.
I don't agree. Fighters (and Paladins) still rule. and check out the new feats.
Barbarians and Fighters as melee combatants roughly equal out in effectiveness
Based on what I saw in play, fighters go heavy armor vs. barbarian's medium = +20' speed to the barbarian counting only the barbarian's fast movement class feature, not counting differences for feats, magical bonuses or anything else. Due to armor mastery, fighters have no expectations to go with anything less than heavy armor - albiet perhaps never more than banded mail due to the help requirement and time requirements to suit up in field or full plate - any later than they can avoid.
Nor, of course, if either party happens to be a dwarf - although dwarves are not commonly barbarians, nothing says they cannot be. Dwarven Battleragers spring readily to mind...
Based on what I saw in play, barbarians hit about as often and about as hard over the course of a combat as the fighter. Some times there are situational differences. But in play, both could roughly count in a Power Attack about as often against lower-AC foes.
:) I can only relay what played out during the PF Beta test campaign from levels 1 - 15, so that is what I have to go on. Would it be better to have 2 full-AP campaigns for more empirical evidence? Absolutely. Was that practicable? Absolutely not.
:) I can only relay what played out during the PF Beta test campaign from levels 1 - 15, so that is what I have to go on. Would it be better to have 2 full-AP campaigns for more empirical evidence? Absolutely. Was that practicable? Absolutely not.
i'm not taking about the Beta. I'm taking about this new version of the rage and rage powers. But thanx for the info :-)
Based on what I saw in play, fighters go heavy armor vs. barbarian's medium = +20' speed to the barbarian counting only the barbarian's fast movement class feature, not counting differences for feats, magical bonuses or anything else.
Heavy armor and medium armor both have the exact same movement speed penalty. 40 feet base movement - 10 for medium armor = 30 feet movement. 30 feet base movement - 10 for heavy armor = 20 feet movement. 30 - 20 = 10.
Solution/ proposal on Swift Foot
Swift Foot (Ex): The barbarian gains a 10-foot enhancement bonus to her speed. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging.
Based on what I saw in play, fighters go heavy armor vs. barbarian's medium = +20' speed to the barbarian counting only the barbarian's fast movement class feature, not counting differences for feats, magical bonuses or anything else.Heavy armor and medium armor both have the exact same movement speed penalty. 40 feet base movement - 10 for medium armor = 30 feet movement. 30 feet base movement - 10 for heavy armor = 20 feet movement. 30 - 20 = 10.
Ah, my mistake - Ineptus especially goes for a mithril breastplate or equivalent ASAFP with his characters so I had forgotten about that. Thanks Zurai!
Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not gain any benefits or take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round. This includes the penalty to Armor Class and the restriction on what actions can be performed. This round still counts against her total number of rounds of rage per day. This power can only be used once per minute.A thought about this -I'd be inclined to allow the barbarian to keep the Con bonus during his moment. Otherwise, this ability could be fatal.
WOW, that's for sure!
Honestly, I'm hoping Jason adopts ONE of the solutions to dealing with "Rage Bonus HPs":He mentioned treating them as "Temporary HPs" (perhaps on a per-day basis to negate exploitation from re-entering Rage?), and my suggestion was applying damage to a separate Rage HP pool *LAST* (after normal HP = 0 or -1), so when you drop Rage & lose the Bonus CON, you tend to end up between -1 to -CON hp instead of DEAD MEAT (@high levels when the BONUS hps >= CON score, thus killing you past the point of healing when you drop Rage)
I posted about Bonus Rage HPs and Animal Fury to the Open Comment section,
which seems a more 'active' sub-forum (and more watched by Jason).