I need some advice on the Fly skill

[All DMs are evil]

OK, before we start, I like the Fly skill. As a long term DM I feel there is a definite need for a skill that lets us know what we can and can not do when flying. I also feel it could be a game breaker.

Now here is my query.

Grog, the warrior has the Fly spell cast on him by the 10th level sorcerer.

Grog has 12 dexterity and is wearing a suit of magic full plate.

So I have calculated that Gorg has a fly skill of 5 (0 Ranks, +5 bonus from caster level, +4 bonus from good manoeuvrability, +1 Dex bonus, -5 Armour Check).

Now my points and questions:

1) Fly skill is a "trained" skill, so you can only use the skill if you have one rank in it. Grog has no ranks, so he can not use anything off the fly skill. q. Is this correct?

2) Assuming I am correct, He has a fly speed of 40ft, this means that he can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed (source fly spell).

3) Now the Fly skill says with out making a check he can remain flying as long as moves at least 20 feet (half his movement), He can only ascend at a 45 degree angle, so no flying vertically up, he can descend at any angle at normal speed and he can only turn in 45 degree increments by sacrificing 5 foot of movement per 45 degrees. q. does the fly spell of double descent rate over ride the fly skill rate of desent?

Now assuming I am correct, this means that if grog was fighting a flying a creature, he can not hover because he must move each round, so only a single attack each round and most likely an attack of opportunity every other round as he flys away from his opponent to remain in the air..

Have I missed any thing or miss interpreted anything?

Any other opinions would be appreciated.

[Matthew Tiffany]

If what your saying is true i don't like it, the fly spell says it takes as much concentration as walking and therefor should let you fly as if it was natural and you did it everyday. plus it says you can attack and use spells normally

[Jeff Wilder]

Fly should probably grant "temporary ranks" in Fly, rather than a "bonus."

--Jeff

[All DMs are evil]

Does anyone disagree that my interpretation is correct?

I agree that fly should probably give temporary ranks, but it does not as written.

It does reward players who can fly every day and put ranks into the fly skill and it severely weakens the fly spells until you do so.

[Freesword]

All DMs are evil wrote:

Does anyone disagree that my interpretation is correct?

I agree that fly should probably give temporary ranks, but it does not as written.

It does reward players who can fly every day and put ranks into the fly skill and it severely weakens the fly spells until you do so.

Your interpretation seems correct to me based on the rules as written. The double descent rate of the spell becomes the normal speed for the character so it does "trump" the skill.

You did miss a couple of points. A creature who has a fly speed (which the fly spell grants) automatically gain the benefit of fly as a class skill as per Beta p63 under Special:

"Creatures with a fly speed gain this skill for free as a class skill."

Technically, the fly spell grants the creature a fly speed. So if he had at least 1 rank in Fly he would get the +3 for Class Skill. Which brings up my next point.

Further on though, it adds an interesting complication in the last paragraph:

"You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a Druid's wild shape ability)."

Technically, a fighter should never be able to put ranks in this skill since his ability to fly is dependent on an outside source (item or spell caster) that he may or may not have access to. Either that or since anyone can have a spell cast on them or an item that grants them flight, then this restriction is pointless.

My personal feeling is that the Trained Only and special restriction on taking this skill need to be removed. It's a skill you will not be putting points into unless you plan to be flying regularly, but an occasional fly spell is almost useless without the ability to use this skill untrained. I would also clarify that only creatures with a fly speed from a "natural means of flight" and not a spell or spell like ability get Fly as a Class Skill for free.

[david ferris]

I think the inability to maintain your current position in the air is silly if flying is through magical means.
It also breaks traditional expectation.
If you think about it, it means that you only need to add levitate to your magical flight to be able to "hover". Levitate should be a built in component of magical flight.
I do think that movement should require a build up process to reach maximum speed, especially if that speed is really fast.
For example, a creature that moves (flight, running, whatever) really fast (lets say 120 feet per round) should be able to move say 60 feet in the first round, 90 feet the second, and reach their maximum speed in the third round since it takes acceleration to reach your maximum velocity.

[mindgamez]

david ferris wrote:

I think the inability to maintain your current position in the air is silly if flying is through magical means.

It also breaks traditional expectation.
If you think about it, it means that you only need to add levitate to your magical flight to be able to "hover". Levitate should be a built in component of magical flight.
I do think that movement should require a build up process to reach maximum speed, especially if that speed is really fast.
For example, a creature that moves (flight, running, whatever) really fast (lets say 120 feet per round) should be able to move say 60 feet in the first round, 90 feet the second, and reach their maximum speed in the third round since it takes acceleration to reach your maximum velocity.

Every group I have played with runs Fly as an advanced Levitate. I that sense it would seem hovering would be possible without penalty. But in 3e and PRPG fly is part of the Transmutation school. This implies some form of physical change and could be read to mean the spell grants a form of winged flight (material component is a wing feather after all) but still...

What really bugs me is the speed of flight. Fly grants a flight speed of about 7mph. The wind chart doesn't make much sense if you cannot fly faster. In anything less than a light breeze you can't make headway into the wind. Can flying creatures "run" or "sprint"? Overland Flight allows a hustle but Fly doesn't stipulate.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Hey there all,

Couple of clarifications. I am thinking strongly that Fly should not be a "Trained" skill, meaning that anyone can attempt the maneuvers. Second, I will clarify the wording on how the skill works in relation to spells that grant a fly speed (ie, your speed will increase if you are descending).

Hope that clarifies some things

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Arakhor]

mindgamez wrote:

What really bugs me is the speed of flight. Fly grants a flight speed of about 7mph. The wind chart doesn't make much sense if you cannot fly faster. In anything less than a light breeze you can't make headway into the wind. Can flying creatures "run" or "sprint"? Overland Flight allows a hustle but Fly doesn't stipulate

I believe that flying creatures can only double-move at most, which itself is doubled when descending or halved when ascending.

Re Jason's post: That sounds like a good idea. Go for it!

[All DMs are evil]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there all,

Couple of clarifications. I am thinking strongly that Fly should not be a "Trained" skill, meaning that anyone can attempt the maneuvers. Second, I will clarify the wording on how the skill works in relation to spells that grant a fly speed (ie, your speed will increase if you are descending).

Hope that clarifies some things

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Thanks for the input Jason, I am trying to be true to the Beta book when play testing, but we had a big air-born battle in the last session (Beginning of Book 4 of the Rise of the Runelords). No character had ranks in fly, so as it was written they were pretty much out classed. Either land or do a single action each round.

Your suggestion of removing the "trained" descriptor would have made it a completely different battle for at least 3 of the characters, who could hover with a pretty low fly check roll.

As fly is now on the sorcerers spell list, I will continue testing with the fly skill as untrained.

Thanks everyone for their input.