Fighter: Armor Training

[Quandary]

Does/should it continue applying bonuses once the Armor Penalties reach Zero?/
Do/should Fighters NOT wearing Armor gain AC bonuses?
How does it work with Shields? All those are unclear...

I think it should apply it's AC bonus and Penalty reduction to the Shield as well... "Sword and Board" Fighters are giving up alot compared to 2WF/ 2Handed Fighters, so I don't think this is really un-balanced...
(and gives Sword & Board Fighters a REMOTE chance of having an effective AC against high level opponents. Although some sort of ability granting miss chance is necessary for high level effectiveness)

More generally:
I think the Armor & Weapon Training need to work more like how Rogue Talents work. I think it's the best way to address the Fighter's 'weakness' as a class as the levels rise. Cumulative attack/armor bonuses don't really add any unique power. (Although they can be an option) I'd rather see options for unique ABILITIES that would give a high level Fighter a unique way to apply themselves. The only 'high level' Feats are the Imp. 2WF & Vital Strikes, which only help straight Damage...

[tumbler]

Our group has also put forth the idea of having armor training apply to both armor and shields (but not animated shields, because it is an effect of you not an effect of the shield).

[Andrew Phillips]

Shields and thier use need to be more effective. This is a good oppurtunity to address that with the armor training rules.

[Khalarak]

I like what you're trying to do, but as I mentioned in a couple other threads, I'd think the best way to give the fighter fun, unique abilities would be to make unique, prerequisite-heavy feats. A fighter's feats *are* his rogue talents, and he should be more able to exploit them.

More on-topic, I like the idea of having armor training interact with a shield, not least of all because it might make a Spartan somewhat viable. :P

[Max Money]

Great question. Our game group noticed that at 19th level the fighter gets:

Pathfinder RPG - BETA wrote:

Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains DR 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield.

With this verbiage, it seems to me that the armor training should include shields, but the issue we had was how. Does it get the same bonuses simultaneously with armor (e.g. +2 for both armor and shield at 7th level) or does the bonus need to be split between armor and shield (e.g. +1 to armor and +1 to shield at 7th level)?

And what about magic items that give an armor bonus like bracers of armor? Do fighters get to apply their armor training bonuses when wearing them as well?

[Pendagast]

In answer to the above,I think armor training should apply to either shield or armor, but not stack.
So If a fighter is ONLY carrying a shield, then he gets his bonuses from armor training.
BUT if a Fighter is wearing armor and a shield the over all bonuses arent stacking (ie doubling)

On another point I have found armor training makes full plate armor a for gone conclusion.

My playtest fighter has reached 7th level in the second darkness aventure path

Spoiler:

we found the "sky metal" known as noqual. We found plenty of it, and was able to make a sword for one character and a set of armor for mine. In addition to other properties, the armor is half weight, sorta like mithral.

Add in my armor training, and I am wearing +2 full plate that has he following over all statistics (-2 ACP and +5 MAX Dex)

Holy heck, I cant even keep up!
I got Full plate because we found some regular +2.
We bought a suit of mundane full plate early one because my character has a low dex (12).
But now Id need an 18 or 19, just to make max use of the armor!
Not to mention I will eventually level again and get more max dex out of armor training.
eeep!

[Quandary]

I feel that the Armor Training AC benefit should apply separately to the Shield, but only @50% (minimum +1), when using both Armor and Shield. I tend to think the ACP reduction should not stack. Perhaps one of the Shield Feats could be required to activate this feature.

...Then again, I'm really more interested in seeing unique (besides +X AC) benefits to both Medium & Heavy Armor AND Shields, which would make them more "worth" both their penalties, and the Feats necessary to use them (either paid for as Feats, or as "Free" Proficiency Feats granted by Classes). DR would work.

[Darwin]

Quandary wrote:

I feel that the Armor Training AC benefit should apply separately to the Shield, but only @50% (minimum +1), when using both Armor and Shield. I tend to think the ACP reduction should not stack. Perhaps one of the Shield Feats could be required to activate this feature.

...Then again, I'm really more interested in seeing unique (besides +X AC) benefits to both Medium & Heavy Armor AND Shields, which would make them more "worth" both their penalties, and the Feats necessary to use them (either paid for as Feats, or as "Free" Proficiency Feats granted by Classes). DR would work.

something like: (just off the top of my head, with no regard for balance)

Iron Fortress Prereq: BAB+8, shield prof, heavy armor prof
Having trained extensively in defense and using his shield to actively cover the vulnerabilities of his armor, when equipped with heavy armor and a large shield, the character gains an additional +2 shield bonus to AC on top of his current shield bonus. In addition his AC is considered a n additional +2 points higher for the purpose of an enemy confirming critical hits. If the character is ever flat-footed or otherwise unable to use his dex bonus to AC, this feat has no effect.

[Lady Bluehawk]

Khalarak wrote:

More on-topic, I like the idea of having armor training interact with a shield, not least of all because it might make a Spartan somewhat viable. :P

Heh! Don't take Frank Miller's gorgeous Spartans as historically accurate...very fun to watch in action ('scuse me whilst I wipe the drool from my chin, just thinking about the movie...sigh <G>), but no, the real Spartans were among the more heavily armored guys in the Mediterranean at the time (one of the reasons they were putting themselves at Thermopylae to guard the pass. Basically the equivalent of the Dwarven Shieldwall Fighter). Helmet, breastplate (that went down to around the navel)/backplate, plated "skirt", greaves for the lower legs, arm armor, _then_ the big honking shield for a phalanx manuever, the spear, etc., etc., etc. One "wealth" the Spartans had was in iron, and they used it as much as possible (the armor was usually different metals for different pieces; bronze was still heavily in use); "The true source of our strength!" --Lykurgos

I can guarentee it: it's a rare day indeed when any fighter _won't_ be wearing some kind of armor, going into battle. A shield is much more optional. A fighter without armor = a monk (interesting idea...get all the combat feats that mirror a lot of the monk stuff...hmm).

That being said, I'm glad this thread came up, since I had questions too. I have a Fighter 3/Sorcerer 3 (who may stick with straight fighter), who I'm debating about getting a shield for (he's a guy made up at 6th level for testing purposes). The main issue for me has always been not so much the AC (1 point may or may not make too much of a difference, with rolls averaging out), but the armor check penalty. Without the Armor Training at all, he'd be -1 penalty due to his armor (studded leather for the sake of being able to do spell casting; he took Arcane Armor Training to help) and an additional -1 for a light shield. Since I want him to be able to actually do other stuff than just stand there and take it as a tank, I'd like to reduce that penalty, if possible. The Armor Mastery ability at 19th level says: "whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield." He'll be wearing armor, I'll bet anything (and my guy can even sleep in his, since it's Light armor!). ;->

My vote? Clarify whether or not shields are included in some fashion at lower levels for the final Pathfinder rules, or make something like Shield Training, starting at fourth or sixth level, the way Armor Training starts at third and Weapon Training starts at fifth. Play around with the numbers as to what Shield Training means, but make it clear.