Wanting to make an hand to hand fighter without being a monk. I was thinking fighter with spiked guantlets or maybe multi-class with a spellcaster that uses touch attack spells. With all the bloodlines giving claws or touch attacks thought this was very interesting. Any ideas...
I'm a bit confused. Are you talking about Pathfinder? Because this is in the 3.5e forum.
Well, if you don't have claws or at least a large-size creature; its going to be pretty rough. Anothe option for "Monk" is the batlle dancer published int the Dragon Compendium. You can cover most of the monk abilities with feats but the unarmed damage is the serious issue. I can't think of enything else.
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I've been running a pretty successful Board+Fist Fighter. He has a huge AC (with Dex, Natural, and Armor, an advantage over the Monk), and the ability to deflect arrows and shield bash. Once he gets Improved Disarm he will be a weapon-stealing behemoth.
The only problem is that you lose out on the increased unarmed damage, but Weapon Specialization helps with that. He hits way more often than a regular monk, and is never unarmed.
Also, remember that you can use an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. So any fighter can pull off Flurry of Blows, they just have to invest in Two-Weapon Fighting (and again, it doesn't get better like the Monk ability).
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Wanting to make an hand to hand fighter without being a monk. I was thinking fighter with spiked guantlets or maybe multi-class with a spellcaster that uses touch attack spells. With all the bloodlines giving claws or touch attacks thought this was very interesting. Any ideas...I'm a bit confused. Are you talking about Pathfinder? Because this is in the 3.5e forum.
I know it's not 3.5, I just thought this was the best place to post this thread. But yes I am using pathfinder and any other 3.5 ideas.
I don't have my books here and I'm not as familiar with the rules as others, but choosing regular, bludgeoning gauntlets and getting your party mage/sorcerer to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you might make up for the lack of damage at higher levels. I believe it's a 24hr. buff that increases the size dmg of a bludgeoning weapon for every 4 caster levels. I'll find out more later unless someone corrects me in the mean time.
Of course, you'd be rather dependent on the spell and a dispell or something could ruin your day, but it's the only way to increase damage that came to me.
Edit: This would also only work if you're playing 3.5 or a hybrid. Also depends on which books are allowed for character creation.
Also, remember that you can use an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. So any fighter can pull off Flurry of Blows, they just have to invest in Two-Weapon Fighting (and again, it doesn't get better like the Monk ability).
I was looking at the same type of thing for Pathfinder (comparing monk vs. fighter). I left out Power Attack so that my average damage calculations were a bit simpler. Also note that these numbers don't include bonuses for enchanted gauntlets:
Fighter w/18 Str
Feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting [racial]
Improved Unarmed Strike [1st]
Double Slice [fighter 1] --> {+3/+3 atk, 6/6 dmg}
Weapon Focus (gauntlet) [fighter 2] --> {+5/+5 atk, 6/6 dmg}
Intimidating Prowess [3rd] --> {+6/+6 atk, 6/6 dmg}
Weapon Specialisation (gauntlet) [fighter 4] --> {+7/+7 atk, 8/8 dmg}
Dazzling Display [5th] --> {+9/+9 atk, 9/9 dmg}
Stunning Defense [fighter 6] --> {+10/+10 atk, 9/9 dmg}
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [7th] --> {+10/+10/+5 atk, 9/9/9 dmg}
Greater Weapon Focus [fighter 8] --> {+12/+12/+7 atk, 9/9/9 dmg}
Scorpion Style [9th] --> {+14/+14/+9 atk, 10/10/10 dmg}
Gorgon's Fist [fighter 10] --> {+15/+15/+10 atk, 10/10/10 dmg}
Medusa's Fist [11th] --> {+16/+16/+11 atk, 10/10/10 dmg} or {+16/+16/+16/+16/+11 atk, 10/10/10/10/10 dmg}
Two-Weapon Rend [fighter 12] --> {+17/+17/+12 atk, 10/10/10 dmg + 13.5 dmg} or {+17/+17/+17/+17/+12 atk, 10/10/10/10/10 dmg + 13.5 dmg}
Greater Weapon Specialisation [13th] --> {+19/+19/+14 atk, 13/13/13 dmg + 13.5 dmg} or {+19/+19/+19/+19/+14 atk, 13/13/13/13/13 dmg + 13.5 dmg}
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Well, if you don't have claws or at least a large-size creature; its going to be pretty rough. Anothe option for "Monk" is the batlle dancer published int the Dragon Compendium. You can cover most of the monk abilities with feats but the unarmed damage is the serious issue. I can't think of enything else.
What about arcane strike? I don't have that book thanks for the info though.
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I don't have my books here and I'm not as familiar with the rules as others, but choosing regular, bludgeoning gauntlets and getting your party mage/sorcerer to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you might make up for the lack of damage. I believe it's a 24hr. buff that increases the size dmg of a bludgeoning weapon for every 4 caster levels. I'll find out more later unless someone corrects me in the mean time.
Of course, you'd be rather dependent on the spell and a dispell or something could ruin your day, but it's the only way to increase damage that came to me.
Where is Greater Mighty Wallop from?
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Also, remember that you can use an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. So any fighter can pull off Flurry of Blows, they just have to invest in Two-Weapon Fighting (and again, it doesn't get better like the Monk ability).I was looking at the same type of thing for Pathfinder (comparing monk vs. fighter). I left out Power Attack so that my average damage calculations were a bit simpler. Also note that these numbers don't include bonuses for enchanted gauntlets:
Fighter w/18 Str
Feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting [racial]
Improved Unarmed Strike [1st]
Double Slice [fighter 1] --> {+3/+3 atk, 6/6 dmg}
Weapon Focus (gauntlet) [fighter 2] --> {+5/+5 atk, 6/6 dmg}
Intimidating Prowess [3rd] --> {+6/+6 atk, 6/6 dmg}
Weapon Specialisation (gauntlet) [fighter 4] --> {+7/+7 atk, 8/8 dmg}
Dazzling Display [5th] --> {+9/+9 atk, 9/9 dmg}
Stunning Defense [fighter 6] --> {+10/+10 atk, 9/9 dmg}
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [7th] --> {+10/+10/+5 atk, 9/9/9 dmg}
Greater Weapon Focus [fighter 8] --> {+12/+12/+7 atk, 9/9/9 dmg}
Scorpion Style [9th] --> {+14/+14/+9 atk, 10/10/10 dmg}
Gorgon's Fist [fighter 10] --> {+15/+15/+10 atk, 10/10/10 dmg}
Medusa's Fist [11th] --> {+16/+16/+11 atk, 10/10/10 dmg} or {+16/+16/+16/+16/+11 atk, 10/10/10/10/10 dmg}
Two-Weapon Rend [fighter 12] --> {+17/+17/+12 atk, 10/10/10 dmg + 13.5 dmg} or {+17/+17/+17/+17/+12 atk, 10/10/10/10/10 dmg + 13.5 dmg}
Greater Weapon Specialisation [13th] --> {+19/+19/+14 atk, 13/13/13 dmg + 13.5 dmg} or {+19/+19/+19/+19/+14 atk, 13/13/13/13/13 dmg + 13.5 dmg}
Wow! this great thank you.
Where is Greater Mighty Wallop from?I don't have my books here and I'm not as familiar with the rules as others, but choosing regular, bludgeoning gauntlets and getting your party mage/sorcerer to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you might make up for the lack of damage. I believe it's a 24hr. buff that increases the size dmg of a bludgeoning weapon for every 4 caster levels. I'll find out more later unless someone corrects me in the mean time.
Of course, you'd be rather dependent on the spell and a dispell or something could ruin your day, but it's the only way to increase damage that came to me.
I believe it's from Races of the Dragon. I'll double check when I get home tonight. Of course there's also a regular Mighty Wallop...but I can't remember how different it is from the greater version. :D
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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What about improved natural weapon, it increase damage by one step. I was hoping that touch spells would make up for damage increase in the monk class.
You can only take that feat if you have a natural weapon.
As a class feature, a monk's unarmed strike counts as either a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon, so they can take Improved Natural Attack (and benefit from spells like magic fang or magic weapon, whichever is available).
If yer not a monk, your fist counts as an "unarmed strike" which is not a natural weapon so yer out.
What about improved natural weapon, it increase damage by one step. I was hoping that touch spells would make up for damage increase in the monk class.You can only take that feat if you have a natural weapon.
As a class feature, a monk's unarmed strike counts as either a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon, so they can take Improved Natural Attack (and benefit from spells like magic fang or magic weapon, whichever is available).
If yer not a monk, your fist counts as an "unarmed strike" which is not a natural weapon so yer out.
I think he was talking about upgrading the claws gained from one of the sorcerer bloodlines.
Edit: Also, it may not be what you are looking for, but in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords there is a feat that improves damage for unarmed strikes as you level (similar to how a monk's damage progresses). It doesn't require any of the other things from the book that some people take issue with.
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Personally I'd go with a spiked full plate two-weapon fighter using spiked gauntlets, then make sure he takes improved unarmed, grapple, trip and disarm, either a half-orc for the STR or a human for the extra feat. I would try to have a spiked buckler as well..
items of interest would of course be Str and Dex items, haste items, and enchanting those gauntlets.
The Duskblade might work. You can take improved unarmed strike or just use spiked or un-spiked gauntlets and channel Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Truestrike, etc. Maybe take some levels in Swashbuckler to add Int bonus to damage with light weapons (like unarmed strikes and gauntlets).
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Personally I'd go with a spiked full plate two-weapon fighter using spiked gauntlets, then make sure he takes improved unarmed, grapple, trip and disarm, either a half-orc for the STR or a human for the extra feat. I would try to have a spiked buckler as well..
items of interest would of course be Str and Dex items, haste items, and enchanting those gauntlets.
Other feats of note would be Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Combat reflexes, Improved TWF, Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization of course...
In addition having an item that allowed enlarge would be of great benefit.
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Personally I'd go with a spiked full plate two-weapon fighter using spiked gauntlets, then make sure he takes improved unarmed, grapple, trip and disarm, either a half-orc for the STR or a human for the extra feat. I would try to have a spiked buckler as well..
items of interest would of course be Str and Dex items, haste items, and enchanting those gauntlets.
Other feats of note would be Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Combat reflexes, Improved TWF, Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization of course...
In addition having an item that allowed enlarge would be of great benefit.
Is there an enchantment that allows you to ignore armor? But it does seem that you can either go with a dex based or str based.
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Is there an enchantment that allows you to ignore armor? But it does seem that you can either go with a dex based or str based.Personally I'd go with a spiked full plate two-weapon fighter using spiked gauntlets, then make sure he takes improved unarmed, grapple, trip and disarm, either a half-orc for the STR or a human for the extra feat. I would try to have a spiked buckler as well..
items of interest would of course be Str and Dex items, haste items, and enchanting those gauntlets.
Other feats of note would be Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Combat reflexes, Improved TWF, Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization of course...
In addition having an item that allowed enlarge would be of great benefit.
Yes, but I'm at work and don't know what the enchantment is called...nor if it can be used on gauntlets...of course, ghost touch and ethereal armor would be nasty...
A couple of things to keep in mind.
Off hand weapons only get 1/2 strength modifier to damage.
Improved Nantural Weapon from the Monster Manual can be taken to increase the base damage of an unarmed attack.
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I don't think so, reminds me of a power fist in 40K.Is there an enchantment that allows you to ignore armor?Brilliant Energy Weapon? You could technically put that on a pair of Spiked Gauntlets (although it would look strange).
That's the one I was thinking of...course it doesn't work on a lot of types of creatures...undead and constructs from what I remember...other non-living targets...
There's one key to unarmed fighters under 3.5 - Superior Unarmed Strike out of Tome of Battle. Pre-reqs BAB +3 and Improved Unarmed Strike. Automatically ups your unarmed damage by one step every 4 levels. (3rd level 1d4, 4th-7th 1d6, 8th-11th 1d8, etc.)This I like. Is the whole book good?
Depends greatly on who you talk to.
A significant portion of it is devoted to a system that produces somewhat magical/wuxia melee characters who have abilities that many compare to spells. Some people think it is the cure for the common melee, others think that it deserves to be burned.
While Superior Unarmed Strike can be used separately from those other mechanics, if you don't like the three new base classes nor the abilities they get, there will only be a few feat in the book that you might want to use.
A couple of things to keep in mind.
Off hand weapons only get 1/2 strength modifier to damage.
In Pathfinder, there's a feat called Double Slice that gives you full Str bonus on your off-hand weapon, though.
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I've been dying to try the Thug variant fighter with the sneak attack for feats substitution variant straight out of the SRD...
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Yeah, Tome of Battle is cool.
(I know it isn't for everyone.)
The feat is Superior Unarmed Strike. p.33
There is also the Shadow Blade feat which adds Dex bonus to unarmed strike damage. It has 2 other feats for prereq's though. Unless you take a level of Swordsage which gets you the prereq's needed.
There is also an unarmed strike variant of the Swordsage. Get Monk's unarmed damage progression and losing light armor proficiency. p20
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I've been playing around with the idea of a warlock who uses the hideous blow blast shape invocation to channel his eldritch blast through his fists... The fun part would be when he decides to use his 'haduken'-style 60 ft punch - which, of course, would be the standard, unmodified eldritch blast...
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The concept was a gladitoral bruiser. The reason for no monk. Someone who would just use his spiked guantlets to just pound is opponents to death. Just sheer strength and devestation. Juggernaut would be maybe close to the best example in the style of bruiser. Thanks to everyone who has been helping me with this.
Barbarian would be good for being the incredibly strong warrior with rage, this also works with lighter armor and grants greater maneuverability that you may enjoy.
Fighter has lots of feats. Depending on the sources you have access to for this character you could fill this up easily. With weapon and armor training your attacks and armor class may be best with this melee class.
Ranger gets two weapon fighting feats without needing the high Dexterity score and also may find the extra damage to favored enemies (possibly humanoids and animals from the gladiator pit) useful as well.
For a rogue the small damage die for an unarmed strike might matter less if you can successfully hit with a powerful sneak attack.
Paladin. Odd suggestion for the normally chaotic gladiator. While not having the normal training other paladin's have received, your skill and devotion have been hardened to paladin like levels in the ring. While others rely only on pure skill to harden their fists, you combine that with your faith to make them strengthen beyond that. And as your opponents would admit, your faith hurts a lot.
With the right domains a cleric might make an interesting character to play fighting with their fists (Destruction and Strength are at the top of my list). Has spells which could be used to strengthen the defense and offense of this character and allies.
Druid is another odd choice I think. However you could take the Plant domain with the Nature Bond. This would allow you to make attacks with your fists hardened to equal the strength of an ancient oak. Again this has spells which could be used to strengthen the defense and offense of this character and allies.
Sorcerer can give the claws. Polymorph-type spells could be interesting to make your character even stronger. Here are a short list of the attack touch spells I saw.
Touch of Fatigue (Sor/Wiz 0)
Shocking Grasp (Sor/Wiz 1)
Ghoul Touch (Sor/Wiz 2)
Touch of Idiocy (Sor/Wiz 2)
Vampiric Touch (Sor/Wiz 3)
Bestow Curse (Sor/Wiz 4)
Plane Shift (Sor/Wiz 7)
Irresistible Dance (Sor/Wiz 8)
Temporal Statis (Sor/Wiz 8)
Battledancer from Dragon Compendium, is a chaotic freedom fighter that excels at tumbling. This has the unarmed damage of a monk with a different set of abilities and flavor.
Warblade from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. This is most likely on this list to be outright denied by the DM. However if it is allowed it might make an interesting version of this character to have access to different sets of maneuvers. Iron heart for abilities showing pure warrior's skill, stone dragon for devastating blows, and tiger claw for primal animal like brutality. Feats could also be taken to access setting sun abilities, specifically the ability to just throw your target away from you.
Might I suggest looking into the Blood-Spiked Charger tactical feat in the PHB II? I always thought it was cool. Basically, it lets you fight up close and personal with spiked shields and armor by giving you three new abilities to perform when equiped with the aforementioned arms and armor. The most dramatic ability is using a charge to throw yourself like a whirling torpedo of spikey pain. Cool flavor; not sure if it's exactly what you want, but worth looking into.
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I like Tome of Battle, it works for me, it's better than having a fighter/wizard in my opinion. The fluff is iffy, I don't use the fluff. If they made a Songblade or spellsword based upon those rules it would work better than the prestige classes IMHO...
I also understand why others don't like ToB...it's different, it's very similar to Earthdawn if it was made d20...I could prolly come up with a couple of variants to the ToB classes based upon Earthdawn, something like a Skyraider...that would be fun
I also understand why others don't like ToB...it's different, it's very similar to Earthdawn if it was made d20...I could prolly come up with a couple of variants to the ToB classes based upon Earthdawn, something like a Skyraider...that would be fun
The stuff I'm not crazy about are the attacks that do fire damage ("I hit him so hard he burst into flames!") and the attacks that heal ("You say you stubbed your toe? Maybe you'll feel better if I punch this squirrel in the face!"). Most of the warblade stuff is pretty cool, though.
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Barbarian would be good for being the incredibly strong warrior with rage, this also works with lighter armor and grants greater maneuverability that you may enjoy.
Ranger gets two weapon fighting feats without needing the high Dexterity score and also may find the extra damage to favored enemies (possibly humanoids and animals from the gladiator pit) useful as well.
A Barbarian/Ranger would make a very interesting gladiator.
Combine the rage abilities with the TWF/favored enemy/terrain capabilities of the Ranger
However Sorcerer is not as good as you think, a sorcerer claw attack is a standard action attack, kind of hamstrings the whole battle sorcerer.
However Sorcerer is not as good as you think, a sorcerer claw attack is a standard action attack, kind of hamstrings the whole battle sorcerer.
I don't think that a sorcerer would make as good a brawler as the other options. I mostly mentioned it because of the suggestion of a sorcerer caster in the first post. However, maybe with spells like enlarge person, combined with the polymorph-type spells (alter self, giant, dragon, etc.), along with some quickened touch attack spells (so you could possibly make the claw attack with the spell) might be interesting.
The frostrager from the Frostburn book is pretty well-built to fight hand-to-hand as well...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=3
~m
If I were you, I'd check out the Defender from the Midnight campaign setting. I built the most devastating unarmed striker/grappler I've ever seen! ;)