Well finished my five game session of 4e just to give it a fair shot, (more on that later, but in short my review is, what I expected).
Setting up my new/old group of players for Pathfinder, converting things and such. I have a lot of 3pp material, and am combing things from WOWC RPG, Conan and a lot of other stuff with Pathfinder, but thats another subject for another day. Right now I'm converting 3.0/3.5 races and racial levels. As such can I assume that.....
1. For ECL 0 races I only add a +2 modifier to an ablity.
2. If so can this +2 be stacked with another + for a total of +4?
3. The reason I ask is because I'm assuming that ECL's should basically be lowered by one? But in doing so I found that some bonuses stack.
Anything major wrong with my logic please give me the heads up. Anyfeedback would be great.
Thanks Dre
I think you can't:
1. Not all ECL 0 races are created equal. One of the reasons the core races got their boosts is that there's a lot of stuff out there that's overpowered, and they want to level the field. Since they can't nerf third party material, they boosted core.
So the best bet is to look at the race and see whether it is good enough as is, and go from there. Sometimes you might have to add more than just +2 to one ability score, other times you won't have to change anything, and sometimes you might take away some abilities.
And then there's the design decision to give each race +2 to a physical and +2 to a mental ability score. Some races might have to be adjusted for that, if you want to follow that lead.
2. I'd think that extreme, especially for a race without level adjustment. Better to spread things out a bit. Makes them more versatile without creating stuff that's too powerful. (In my opinion, starting characters shouldn't be able to get 22 in one stat)
3. Not necessarily, no. Some races can be tuned down by one without change. Others are somewhere between and need a nerf to fit in the lower LA range. Others still might get downgraded by more than one level, or none at all.
Example: I'd do the following with Aasimars:
+2 Strength, +2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence.
Medium size.
An aasimar’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Outsider (Native) type.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Racial Skills: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Perception and Diplomacy checks.
Special Attacks (see above): Daylight.
Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5.
Automatic Languages: Common, Celestial. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Sylvan.
Favored Class: Cleric or Paladin.
I took away the +2 Wis, and gave them +2 Str and -2 Int, so they have a penalty, like other races, and bonuses in both a physical and a mental ability score.
I combined spot and listen to Perception, and gave them Diplomacy.
I added Cleric as a favoured class.
I'd say without those adjustments (especially the penalty to an ability score), there were a bit too good.
Director of Brand Strategy
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2. I'd think that extreme, especially for a race without level adjustment. Better to spread things out a bit. Makes them more versatile without creating stuff that's too powerful. (In my opinion, starting characters shouldn't be able to get 22 in one stat)
Also, consider that the point buy cost jumps up from a +1 modifier to a +2, so granting someone a free +2 without having to spend anything to raise the base 10 is not really balanced.
I took away the +2 Wis, and gave them +2 Str and -2 Int, so they have a penalty, like other races, and bonuses in both a physical and a mental ability score.
I combined spot and listen to Perception, and gave them Diplomacy.
I added Cleric as a favored class.
Since you removed their Wisdom bonus, I would instead give Fighter as a favored class. Their mental-stat-dependent class would be Paladin and phyisical-stat-dependent class would be Fighter. Making a penalty-related class favored doesn't really make sense.
Both clerics and paladins benefit from both strength and charisma. May not be the primary stat for clerics, but still useful.
There is no real guidance on this so you are on your own. I would suggest that the game be run directly from the MM/ MM?? as currently written. Paizo is planning on releasing a beastiary (Big Ass Book of Monsters ;) ) at which point they might make changes to the whole LA structure but for now the only official version is the existing sources. One of the points of boosting the core races was to make them more desirable than many of the other races out there. By arbitrarily boosting other races you are negating that benefit entirely.
That said... it's your house and your rules, don't expect any official word until the Paizo Beastiary.
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We started using the slower EXP progressions for higher ECL races. For example, core races use the Fast EXP chart, races with an ECL of +1 use the regular EXP chart, and the races with a ECL of 2 or higher use the Slow progression.
It has helped minimize the appeal of high ECL races by balancing out class progression. Will post again as playtesting continues.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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We started using the slower EXP progressions for higher ECL races. For example, core races use the Fast EXP chart, races with an ECL of +1 use the regular EXP chart, and the races with a ECL of 2 or higher use the Slow progression.
It has helped minimize the appeal of high ECL races by balancing out class progression. Will post again as playtesting continues.
That's a great idea. I think that requiring them to level more slowly certainly helps even things out, but in the higher levels, they'll be really far behind, and that sucks. It's not a balanced trade-off at all for playing a LA+2 creature. Sure, there should be a price, but not that high, otherwise no one would do it at all, and the option should be attractive enough that some people still might do it.
We started using the slower EXP progressions for higher ECL races. For example, core races use the Fast EXP chart, races with an ECL of +1 use the regular EXP chart, and the races with a ECL of 2 or higher use the Slow progression.
It has helped minimize the appeal of high ECL races by balancing out class progression. Will post again as playtesting continues.
I Did this at first but got negative reactions form my two oldest players they said that it was too much like 2e, which I don't know and have never played so I had to take there word on that one. Thanks all for the feed back. I'm still inclined to lower Racial Levels by one.
as for the auto +2 to be clear I'd only give to races I feel are balanced to the standared.
To be honest I feel that power creep as far as most races and classes occured mostly with Wizards products. My classic example of this was the Hobgoblin race and Knight class from R&R Excalibur which work fine in 3.5 but need a boost in PF. I didn't see powercreep until 3pp started making ogl setting books like conan. Don't get me wrong I like PF in general, but like any game there are simply things I'd tweek.
On the other hand I take a little bit of anything so in my upcoming Pathfinder game I using Conan and WoW rpg races and classes, as well as possibly some Warlords of Accordlands. This might be a good time to ask all you guys if you think Conan classes and Pathfinder classes are about equle, I have to say yes, I'm not talking everything, mind you, just class ablities here.
Anyways, again thank you for the feedback, its good to have a place to get ideas from.
TTFN Dre