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Hey there!
So, I'm looking at skills. In 3.5 OGL there are 46 skills (counting each knowledge skill separately). In Pathfinder there are 35. Pathfinder introduced one new skill, being Fly, so they've done away with 12 skills, or 25% of what there was. So, everyone's skill points stretch 25% more than they did before.
I don't have a problem with some skill merging, such as Perspective and Stealth, because it will make the game run more smoothly. I could even be persuaded to see Open Lock folded into Disable Device. However, I don't see a need to get rid of Concentration, Gather Information, Tumble, and Speak Language, all of which were valuable skills worth buying in 3.5, yet leave Disguise or Escape Artist, which I never saw in my personal campaign. Spellcraft and Appraise already saw extensive use, and I don't think they need to be the subject of merging.
I'm of the belief that rather than eliminating skills, offer new choices for the existing skills.
Appraise - find items at 10% off
Concentration - overcome fear or mind-affecting effects in later rounds
Gather Information - find expensive goods in a moment's notice
Heal - allow chance to revive dead character within 1 round
I know this might be a futile exercise, but I did talk to Jason at Gen Con, and one thing he did seem open to was taking away skills takes away options for characters. Really, Skills only takes up 20 pages of rules in the Pathfinder Beta. If we are going to take nearly a page to detail Craft and Profession, why not give Tumble and Concentration a chance to stand on their own?
* The general workaround is to split Acrobatics, and create 'Athletics', which incorporates Climb, Jump, and Swim.
Athletics is a poor choice of name for such a skill. I don't think a proper english word exists to merge these skills, but Athletics has a strong sporting connotation that is inappropriate for fantasy games.
Also, plenty of people can't swim. Jumping and climbing are not necessarily related, but jumping and tumbling most certainly are (even if it's a one-way relationship in "reality"). I am quite pleased with Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim as the independent skills.
* Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana, Use Magic Device, IMO, ought to be combined, and Concentrate left as its own skill -- if necessary.
Agreed. At the very least, Use Magic Device ought to be called "Artifice" or something more evocative. Likewise for Disable Device and Open Lock, although now merged, why couldn't they have been "Sabotage" and "Lockpick"? I really wish they had rolled Spellcraft into Knowledge Arcana instead of rolling Concentration into Spellcraft.
* Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive, I've rolled-up into 'Deception'
Diplomacy has a niche as the only skill you can use to make people believe the truth when they wouldn't otherwise. It has many applications that just plain shouldn't be rolled into bluff, because paladins should not have the same social skill set as rogues. Sense motive must rightly be tied to wisdom, although "Empathy," or "Apprehension" would be a far more atmospheric word for Sense Motive.
I disagree about disguise and escape artist being removed. These skills might find little pracitcal use in most campaigns, but if you dont need them just dont take them. But I personally think these skills make for a nice campaign with some depth to it. If you'd erase these skills I think the game would go too much toward 4th edition/video games, where you have skills only directly applicable to dungeon crawling.
But I think for a nice role playing feeling it is necessary that characters have the option for more skills they can use outside a dungeon or in situations they do not encounter on a regular basis.
I think having Bluff, Sense motive and Diplomacy on different skills does make a lot of sense and shouldnt be changed, as all of these are different in their core. A good liar doesn't necessarily have an easy time to recognize his kind. And diplomacy has little to do with deception. If diplomacy meant deception in any way, would people invite diplomats to their country for intetnational communication? Diplomacy is something entirely different it is about bein persuasive, getting someone else to listen to reason or at least what sounds reasonable. Bluff is to simply make them believe something that is not true and thus making them do what you want to.
Also while spellcraft and knowledge (arcana) could actually go together, use magic device again is something inherently different. Knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft are both about the character's knowledge and aptitude in the subject of the arcane. But use magic device is not at all. Use magic device is the talent to decieve the magic item by acting like you had any idea of what youre doing, but you actually dont. Or by pretending to be something youre not (may it be another class or an entirely different race) it should get a synergy bonus from spellcraft/know(arcana) at best. And if you want to fold it away, fold it into bluff. And then only make it available to be used that way if you have ranks in spellcraft/know(arcana)
Use Magic Device is definitely worth its own skill. Getting that free with Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana? That's too much. Something like Disguise isn't worth a skill by itself, so it's only worth taking if you have to (say, because you are an incognito Shapeshifter who doesn't want True Seeing automatically ruining their day).
Some stuff I do (this helps non casters considerably, casters don't care much):
Bluff + Diplomacy + Intimidate = Persuasion.
Listen + Spot = Perceptions.
Disguise + Forgery = Deception.
Technically, you can already open locks with disable device or just pick it with an adamantine dagger, but fusing those two anyways, rolling use rope into Survival, and rolling the two stealth skills together goes a long way.
Agreed. For another example, Use Rope saw extensive use in every campaign I was ever in, but is being eliminated (not even merged), while Sleight of Hand, which has never been used once, is being kept....
The skill rearrangements are frankly sloppy. From a role-playing or immersive point of view, merging Swim with anything is just wrong (some people know how to swim, others don't....) -- it's like merging Fly. Likewise, Climb can't be reasonably merged with anything else. Jump could probably be eliminated or replaced with a feat, because in reality the difference between people's jumping distances is remarkably small (compared to their climbing abilities), and it's more a matter of athletic practice than 'learning how to jump'. I use Concentration even without spellcasters to determine whether people are able to pay attention when distracted -- it should give a synergy bonus to Perception checks made to notice things in distracting situations.
You are speaking purely out of personal experience. I for one had seen use of sleight of hand in almost every campaign that included a rogue.
About the jumping not being 'learning how to jump'. Not but ranks don't necessarily have to mean that you have learned how to do it, it can also mean that you just have a lot of practice in it.
However i like those thoughts on concentration.
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This just summarizes my opinion ... why eliminate the skills that people use, and enjoy? I think we all agree on Stealth and Perception, and maybe Disable Device but everything else *could* stay ...
Or in my opinon - SHOULD stay. I know there are people who think that more combinations are the answer - I don't like that. If the other side wants to do more with less, I'm in favor of keeping them broken out and providing more skill points (particularly to the 2-skill classes).
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Or in my opinon - SHOULD stay. I know there are people who think that more combinations are the answer - I don't like that. If the other side wants to do more with less, I'm in favor of keeping them broken out and providing more skill points (particularly to the 2-skill classes).
You could offer more skill points, but I think one of the strengths of the skill system is a wide range of skills and limited skill points. If you had 10 skills to train in, and 15 skills, your variations on a character are limited. If you have 10 skills to train in, and have to choose from 30 skills, while your character may not be as prepared for every single action, your choices of skills make him more unique against other characters, each with their own unique skill sets.
(And I like the favored class option, of 1 extra skill point per level. Another option would be allow a feat called Skilled, that would grant an extra skill rank a level, or maybe even 2 ...)
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Or in my opinon - SHOULD stay. I know there are people who think that more combinations are the answer - I don't like that. If the other side wants to do more with less, I'm in favor of keeping them broken out and providing more skill points (particularly to the 2-skill classes).You could offer more skill points, but I think one of the strengths of the skill system is a wide range of skills and limited skill points. If you had 10 skills to train in, and 15 skills, your variations on a character are limited. If you have 10 skills to train in, and have to choose from 30 skills, while your character may not be as prepared for every single action, your choices of skills make him more unique against other characters, each with their own unique skill sets.
(And I like the favored class option, of 1 extra skill point per level. Another option would be allow a feat called Skilled, that would grant an extra skill rank a level, or maybe even 2 ...)
Well, that's exactly my point. There were over 40 skills in 3.5 if I recall correctly, and around 35 in Pathfinder (again, if memory serves). I'm not suggesting that classes routinely have 15 or 20 skill points - just that they have slightly more than their 3.5 counterparts. So, the fighter could get 4 skill points (+Int) as well as a favored class bonus if he so chooses. 4-8 Skill points seems like a good number for him. You can't do EVERYTHING, but you can do enough things well to be better rounded.
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Well, that's exactly my point. There were over 40 skills in 3.5 if I recall correctly, and around 35 in Pathfinder (again, if memory serves). I'm not suggesting that classes routinely have 15 or 20 skill points - just that they have slightly more than their 3.5 counterparts. So, the fighter could get 4 skill points (+Int) as well as a favored class bonus if he so chooses. 4-8 Skill points seems like a good number for him. You can't do EVERYTHING, but you can do enough things well to be better rounded.
A slippery slope, my friend. Right now I'm building a potential 1st level ranger, with 8 skill ranks, thanks to a +2 Intelligence modifier. I can pretty much choose every class skill.
If you had a fighter with 4-8 skill points, you'd have the same situation. And then, a lot of the fighters out there would all be the same ...
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I've only got two points/suggestions I want to make:
Keep Escape Artist as a skill. I try to max out this skill with every Rogue I play. It really helps level the playing field when my Rogue's mouth gets him in trouble with a grappler, or he finds himself in trouble with the City Watch.
Combine Disguise with Bluff. Too many similarities to keep them separate, IMO.
I've only got two points/suggestions I want to make:
Keep Escape Artist as a skill. I try to max out this skill with every Rogue I play. It really helps level the playing field when my Rogue's mouth gets him in trouble with a grappler, or he finds himself in trouble with the City Watch.
Combine Disguise with Bluff. Too many similarities to keep them separate, IMO.
So long as disguise is tied to CHA, they are way too similiar. And rather ambiguous.
Frankly, I think Craft (Disguise) and just plain old bluff (or acting or whatever) makes WAY more sense.
Gathering appropriate uniforms and applying makeup is a craft thing. Carrying yourself like a member of the city guard or and orc, and not losing your cool when you have to say "I am a member of the city guard or an orc" is definitely Bluff.
Between the two, I see no need for a disguise skill.