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Played my gnome sorceror not long ago. We're going through the Isle of Dread part in Savage Tide AP and we came across some of the demons.
Now I have taken the air elemental bloodline (I like lightning and being able to fly around :) ) but many of these creatures were immune to my bloodline abilities (since they eveoke only the energy type of the elemental I am).
This was a bit frustrating as for most of the game I couldn't use those bonus abilities. I still had effective spells and scrolls, but it did make my option a little disapointing. For a sorceror limited options are going to happen but the Beta is trying to address this.
I'd like to see a metamagic feat similar to the one in complete Arcane, where you can swap energy types of effects for spells. I think it will increase the versatility of the sorceror. Not sure how the balance will change for wizards (who already have very high versatility). I realise the flavour of this might not be well matched to my bloodline but I am thinking about your overall goal of increasing the versatility of the sorceror.
I like the fact the bloodline abilities mean I can diversify my spell selection more so not trying to be a blaster, or enchanter all the time. However this scenario certainly then crimped my game a fair bit.
Cheers
Played my gnome sorceror not long ago. We're going through the Isle of Dread part in Savage Tide AP and we came across some of the demons.
Now I have taken the air elemental bloodline (I like lightning and being able to fly around :) ) but many of these creatures were immune to my bloodline abilities (since they eveoke only the energy type of the elemental I am).
This was a bit frustrating as for most of the game I couldn't use those bonus abilities. I still had effective spells and scrolls, but it did make my option a little disapointing. For a sorceror limited options are going to happen but the Beta is trying to address this.
I'd like to see a metamagic feat similar to the one in complete Arcane, where you can swap energy types of effects for spells. I think it will increase the versatility of the sorceror. Not sure how the balance will change for wizards (who already have very high versatility). I realise the flavour of this might not be well matched to my bloodline but I am thinking about your overall goal of increasing the versatility of the sorceror.
I like the fact the bloodline abilities mean I can diversify my spell selection more so not trying to be a blaster, or enchanter all the time. However this scenario certainly then crimped my game a fair bit.
Cheers
I really think that I would leave those limitations in place. I see no reason why you couldn't use the f eat from Unearthed Arcana in your own game if you wanted if your DM approves. I like the idea of having some things that certain characters are somewhat limited against of course that is from a DMs perspective. I think actually that is part of the idea behind bloodlines, they create a character that has some flavor and also is quite potent against some foes but less so against others. Everybody needs a type of enemy that makes them say "oh crap" when they have to fight it.
Charles
Played my gnome sorceror not long ago. We're going through the Isle of Dread part in Savage Tide AP and we came across some of the demons.
Now I have taken the air elemental bloodline (I like lightning and being able to fly around :) ) but many of these creatures were immune to my bloodline abilities (since they eveoke only the energy type of the elemental I am).
This is the problem with any ability that uses a specific energy type. Had you chosen lightning bolt as one of your sorcerer spells you would have the same issue. One of the best items for sorcerers who like to blast is metamagic rod of energy substitution.
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thanks for the feed back guys. I hadn't checked this thread for a while and suddenly I'm inundated :)
I'm of two minds about the feat as well. Didn't realise there was a metamagic rod of energy substitution in game, will need to look into it. But if it's there then that helps.
I understand the limitations of spell selection and all with some spells being useless. What I was concerned about was an entire bloodlines bonus powers being nerfed. Many of the spells you pick up are for your energy type only. However, for my game I am going to take energy substituion and see how it plays out. It was a suggestion only and certainly needs playtesting.
I also feel it may make no sense for a sorceror with an air elemental in its body to be able to channel earth elemental spells, so I'll be putting self imposed limits on the feat to keep flavour. Still, an air elemental being able to spontaneously convert to fire based spells doesn't seem too unreasonable since they're element types that are complementary.
The joy of the bloodlines is that those bonus abilities give you some blasting power and other versatility which means you don't have to limit your spell selection as much as previously. Now I can take spells such as haste and other group buff spells because I will also have some offensive magic available from my bloodline. If enough creatures are completely immune to your bloodline though, it gets frustrating quickly.
Of course, a DM can counteract this if they're writing their own modules as they will cater encounters to reduce this type of thing (not completely remove, I agree with your sentiment Zwyt). However we play AP's so there's a good chance that at mid to high end, it may become frustrating.
It could of course be just one of the hazards of the job :) Will leave it up to the developers to decide.
On a side note, I'll be playing my sorceror again in a week. Level 9 and fighting on the isle of dread. I hav't taken energy substituion yet so I'll get some more feel for it and give some further feedback.
Cheers
Energy substitution is not core... I'm not sure where it came into the game. Complete Arcane maybe? I guess I shouldn't have mentioned it for the beta. It's one of those feat I am definitely porting forward.
Energy substitution is not core... I'm not sure where it came into the game. Complete Arcane maybe? I guess I shouldn't have mentioned it for the beta. It's one of those feat I am definitely porting forward.
There's an Energy Substitution feat in the Divine SRD, so Pathfinder could steal it if they wanted:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#EnergySubstitutio n|
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Played my sorceror again yesterday.
Some Savage tide stuff in here, read at own risk if you're playing that one.
Isle of dread, starting to do things to help Farshore for defense. Means we ended up going to villages and offering them favours so they could provide some help
I have taken the energy substitution feat as I discussed above but didn't have to use it at all this game. All beasties were either mundane or susceptible to lightning.
We fought a whole bunch of things that would've made a fire elemental sorceror upset though :). Maybe you guys were correct that it's just something to deal with as a limited resource caster.
I used a few more of my non damage spells this time around. Haste was great for my mates, and a spell I can take more comfotably now, knowing I still have my bloodline for offensive attacks.
Tried out a confusion as well on a bunch of wyverns but only one got affected and that's with a damn high save DC. Damn lucky DM dice.
I also got to use my elemental body to create a whirlwind which sucked up a rather nasty acid fog my party were getting hurt by. This one was a DM call and we discussed it as a group first. Seemed to make sense that a whirlwind 30 feet across at the top could suck in a fog effect. We liked this alot. A good use for a bloodline feat. I also thought about using it to emergency lift the guys out of the place as the whirlwind allows me to pick up critters. Didn't do it though as we haven't read it thoroughly enough to try last night.
We spoke about my capacity to cast spells in this form. We ruled no as I don't have the voice etc. but it would be worth clarifying or maybe allowing access to a feat similar to wild spell that the druids get. This is of course coming from a sorceror player so might be a biased towards increase power.
There's lots of talk around the forums atm discussing fighter vs spellcaster. At least with our game and vs sorceror, our fighter did all the real damage to critters in the group as I was having to deal with all the unusal stuff popping up (acid fogs, invisible creatures etc.) A note for any of you guys out there arguing the point, I used glitterdust on some creatures last night that were effectively invisible in their element (fire). They were outlined but also used sonic effects for blindsense so the blindness effect was next to useless. IT is a powerful spell, but the new save per round has reduced its effectivenss significantly in terms of a battle ending strategy.
Will post again when I've played him again. Taking a break from discussing points on the boards for while. Happy to post my game results and experiences but feeling the effects of nerd rage fatigue with some of the discussions I stupidly got myself involved in. Feel free to post here if you like, I'm unlikely to respond though sorry.
I have a sorcerer that I am testing out and my GM and I have a difference on leveling up. It says that a dragon desciple adds their level to the previous sorcerer levels for determining bloodline powers. If we read it corectly you only need level 2 in sorcerer [as long as you have know: arcana as a class skill] to qualify for the prestige class. At 3rd level you take DD and gain not only what is on the chart for that prestigue class [which includes a +1 natural armor bonus] but you also get your third level bloodline powers [whic also includes a +1 natural armor class].
Is it correct that all bloodline powers stack with the power and abilities that are granted by the dragon desciple? So at level 2 sorcerer/ level 1 Dragon desciple you actually get +2 armor class and everything else?
If we read it corectly you only need level 2 in sorcerer [as long as you have know: arcana as a class skill] to qualify for the prestige class. At 3rd level you take DD and gain not only what is on the chart for that prestigue class [which includes a +1 natural armor bonus] but you also get your third level bloodline powers [whic also includes a +1 natural armor class].
You're misreading it.
Dragon Disciple requires 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), not a +5 modifier. You still need to be 5th level before taking it.
You're misreading it.Dragon Disciple requires 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), not a +5 modifier. You still need to be 5th level before taking it.
Modus is correct you need 5 points invested in that skill. The +3 class rank does not count
If we read it corectly you only need level 2 in sorcerer [as long as you have know: arcana as a class skill] to qualify for the prestige class. At 3rd level you take DD and gain not only what is on the chart for that prestigue class [which includes a +1 natural armor bonus] but you also get your third level bloodline powers [whic also includes a +1 natural armor class].You're misreading it.
Dragon Disciple requires 5 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), not a +5 modifier. You still need to be 5th level before taking it.
Prereqs need to be fulfilled before taking the class not concurrent. You must have 5 ranks before you can enter DD so you can't enter the class until 6th level.
If thats what you meant and I'm misreading your statement I apologize.
That is what I thought originally about needing to be level five first, however on page 52 of the main book in the skills section it states when a prestige class calls for a number of skill ranks,
you can qualify if you meet that number of ranks –3 if you also have the skill as a class skill. If you do not have the skill as a class skill, you must possess double that number of ranks.
Second level sorcerer [if done correctly] will have 2 ranks in the rquired skill as it is a class skill. They require 5 so 5-3 = 2. The passage is short but am I still missing something?
Energy substitution is not core... I'm not sure where it came into the game. Complete Arcane maybe? I guess I shouldn't have mentioned it for the beta. It's one of those feat I am definitely porting forward.
The "Rod of Energy Substitution" is in the "Magic Item Compendium". (2700gp) (All Rods count as a Lt. Mace/Club(1d6) for the purposes of threatening!)
BTW, a very nice book to have, it covers most magic items that are in the DMG. My favorite part of the book is the listings in the back, by 'Price' and by 'Slot'. I'm sure you could find it on the cheap now since 3.5 is technically out of print. I scooped up all 5 of the "Races of.." books for like $12.00.
That is what I thought originally about needing to be level five first, however on page 52 of the main book in the skills section it states when a prestige class calls for a number of skill ranks,
you can qualify if you meet that number of ranks –3 if you also have the skill as a class skill. If you do not have the skill as a class skill, you must possess double that number of ranks.Second level sorcerer [if done correctly] will have 2 ranks in the rquired skill as it is a class skill. They require 5 so 5-3 = 2. The passage is short but am I still missing something?
Yes, these rules are for converting PrC for Pathfinder. Since the Dragon Disciple has been Pathfinderized already, this rule does not apply.
Level 6 it is.
Prereqs need to be fulfilled before taking the class not concurrent. You must have 5 ranks before you can enter DD so you can't enter the class until 6th level.
If thats what you meant and I'm misreading your statement I apologize.
I see how it could be a bit misleading.
You need 5 levels in a class before you can take your first level in Dragon Disciple. So your first Dragon Disciple level will be your 6th level.
That is what I thought originally about needing to be level five first, however on page 52 of the main book in the skills section it states when a prestige class calls for a number of skill ranks,
you can qualify if you meet that number of ranks –3 if you also have the skill as a class skill. If you do not have the skill as a class skill, you must possess double that number of ranks.
Second level sorcerer [if done correctly] will have 2 ranks in the rquired skill as it is a class skill. They require 5 so 5-3 = 2. The passage is short but am I still missing something?
As TreeLynx said, that note only applies to 3.5 prestige classes, those that have been converted to PathfinderRPG in the Prestige Enhancement don't follow that. They also don't follow the "double ranks if not a class skill" either, from the looks of it.
To clarify further, the 3.5 Dragon Disciple has Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks.
The Pathfinder Dragon Disciple has Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.