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OK, so I'll start this off by saying that I actually know very little about Greyhawk. I only started playing D&D regularly with 3E, and didn't get any of the Greyhawk info besides the list of basic Deities in the PHB. Which leads to my question:
What's the deal with St. Cuthbert? Who sainted him? Was he a saint before he became a God, or did he just decide, once he was a God, that he should totally be a saint? I think that would be pretty unnecessary. And why did he keep his 'Saint' title upon becoming a God? Is being worshipped by tens of thousands of people not enough for him? Also, why is he the only saint you ever hear about? Did he put some sort of ban other saints as well?
It's a conspiracy, isn't it?
The specifics of St. Cuthbert have been bothering my unknowledgable group for a very long time. We sent a question to Wizards, but they didn't answer.
And so I turn to you! People who've been playing D&D for much longer than me! What's the deal?
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It's because St. Cuthbert is more catchy then Larry-Neville Cuthbert.
and due to the way sainthood works, he'd have to have been canonized before deitihood, since a saint is "one who led an exemplary life", or did miracles while alive. and i don't think Deities count as alive. but you are right. it is an interesting question.
also, It is interesting to note that there is a St-Cuthbert street in Montreal. small bit of trivia for y'all.
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also, It is interesting to note that there is a St-Cuthbert street in Montreal. small bit of trivia for y'all.
Hmm, that makes me wonder, is the D&D St. Cuthbert based on the real-world St. Cuthbert?
If only he were the God of roads, then I would just say the St. stood for 'street' and call it a day.
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OK, so I'll start this off by saying that I actually know very little about Greyhawk. I only started playing D&D regularly with 3E, and didn't get any of the Greyhawk info besides the list of basic Deities in the PHB. Which leads to my question:
What's the deal with St. Cuthbert? Who sainted him? Was he a saint before he became a God, or did he just decide, once he was a God, that he should totally be a saint? I think that would be pretty unnecessary. And why did he keep his 'Saint' title upon becoming a God? Is being worshipped by tens of thousands of people not enough for him? Also, why is he the only saint you ever hear about? Did he put some sort of ban other saints as well?
It's a conspiracy, isn't it?
The specifics of St. Cuthbert have been bothering my unknowledgable group for a very long time. We sent a question to Wizards, but they didn't answer.
And so I turn to you! People who've been playing D&D for much longer than me! What's the deal?
Saint Cuthbert of the Cudgel is the combative deity of wisdom, dedication, and zeal. Originally specific to the World of Greyhawk campaign setting, he has been considered part of the generic core pantheon since the release of the game's third edition in 2000.
Rumored to have once been a mortal man, Saint Cuthbert is an intermediate deity. His alignment has been variously interpreted as lawful neutral (lawful good tendencies) and lawful good (lawful neutral tendencies). Saint Cuthbert hates evil, but is more concerned with law and order, with converting the uninformed, and preventing backsliding among the faithful.
That's like, ten lines more than I knew about the guy, too.
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well according to Wikipedia (oh that glorious resource of all info that is usually useless) St. Cuthbert was known for his piety, diligence and obediance to the cause and to his superiors. He was apparently a really important dude who went around healing the ill and performing miracles. he did a lot of missionary work, healing people and spreading the faith through charm and generosity to the poor. he was made a bishop and then died soon after.
Scuttlebutt has it that when his casket was opened a few years leter, his body was still found preserved and therefore joined the ranks of the incorruptibles, a group of saints who were apparently under god's protection so much so that they didn't decay after death.
Also, he created the world's first bird preservation laws when he decided to protect ducks in the area of the monestary he lived in.
There is an article on Canonfire on him:
St. Cuthbert.
A second one:
St. Cuthbert
Wikipedia knows a bit as well:
Wiki link
I seem to recall an official version that he was a mortal in the times of the migrations after the Twin Cataclysms, but this is vague at best.
Stefan
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So how does the Great Chain of Being work in Greyhawk anyway?
Is it Saint < Hero-Diety < Quasi-Diety < Demigod?
The Hero-Diety Kelanen 'the Sword Saint' just confuses things, as does the presence of a Greater God who still calls himself a Saint.
this opens up all new deity naming conventions. like, if the saint title carries on, then why not "king/queen" or "General", or "arch-Bishop"? throw in their name, and you can have a pantheon of gods, none with the same title.
and what aboot nicknames? if a theif is called "the rat" by his peers, or a warrior nicnamed "The Axe", does that carry on too?
pretty soon we can have Queen Doctor Barbarelly "The Rat" Saskomedeus, M.D., P.H.D. as Goddess of thieves with royal lineage everywhere!
So how does the Great Chain of Being work in Greyhawk anyway?
Is it Saint < Hero-Diety < Quasi-Diety < Demigod?
The Hero-Diety Kelanen 'the Sword Saint' just confuses things, as does the presence of a Greater God who still calls himself a Saint.
I don´t think it plays any role if a divine being is classified as a Saint, Hero-Deity or Quasi-Deity, and if there is any kind of hierarchy of power between them. There was an old article introducing Saints for D&D in Dragon Magazine 79, where among others Saint Kargoth, Patron of Death Knights, was introduced. Saints were divine being in there, but not worshipable (is that a word?)
If you take Saint as being some kind of epithet for a being that is exemplary in its field, this might make more sense. Perhaps St. Cuthbert was called a saint while still alive already, and the epithet stuck when he was "promoted".Stefan
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pretty soon we can have Queen Doctor Barbarelly "The Rat" Saskomedeus, M.D., P.H.D. as Goddess of thieves with royal lineage everywhere!I think I've found my next character!
ya know what's funny? many campaign settings have universities and whatnot, but none of the characters ever bother to get degrees in anything. in theory, the highest intelligence you need to get a bachelor's is a 10 (if i remember right, that's the average int of a human). to get a PHD? possibly a 12 at most. practicing MD? 11-12, depending (since most of it is practical, and i have no experiance with medicine at all), and this is considered extremely intelligent by human standards. most wizards start the game with an int of 14-18. they could theoretically ace every class they take, take them at an accellerated rate and end up with PHDs in everything by the time the rest of the players get back from one adventure.
no real practical application, but a nice bit of trivia and fluff there.
(though i am tempted to write an article for some magazine just to create applications for this. why not have a masters in botony mean something?)
also, It is interesting to note that there is a St-Cuthbert street in Montreal. small bit of trivia for y'all.
So wait .... is it called "St. Cuthbert st."? Cuz that just seems redundant. or would that be [St] Cuthbert [/st]?
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So wait .... is it called "St. Cuthbert st."? Cuz that just seems redundant. or would that be [St] Cuthbert [/st]?
Actually, since it's Montreal, it'd probably be written rue St. Cuthbert. ;)
But for the sake of the anglophones in Montreal, I'd hope that it's a Boulevard or and Avenue or something!
EDIT: Nope, it's definietely a street!
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also, It is interesting to note that there is a St-Cuthbert street in Montreal. small bit of trivia for y'all.So wait .... is it called "St. Cuthbert st."? Cuz that just seems redundant. or would that be [St] Cuthbert [/st]?
an html joke! nice! havn't seen one of those in a while.
and to answer your question, because montreal is in quebec, and quebec uses french words, it's actually Rue St-Cuthbert. i just translated for you. though, the meaning of rue in english leads to yet another possible pun as many of his clerics start shouting this at fleeing villains.
Rue Saint Cuthbert!
Rue him I say!
edit: darn, ninja'd by Nameless... that's what i get for looking things up to make sure.
RANDOM FACT:
There is a Saint Cuthbert's school in england, and it is either prep or reform. I saw it in passing, looking out a car window, so I can't remember which it was, but it definitely said Saint Cuthbert's!
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I've always loved St. Cuthbert clerics. In my campaigns they always play "bad cop" - sweeping things off inn tables, throwing bad guys against walls, basically putting their boot in anyones face who tries to get in the way of their business.
One of my Greyhawk players recently tried to withhold evidence from them, suspecting they were impersonators. Let's just say that three burly clerics tapping their palms with heavy maces changes his mind.
Perhaps it is just because they fit the medieval role of warrior-priest so well.
pretty soon we can have Queen Doctor Barbarelly "The Rat" Saskomedeus, M.D., P.H.D. as Goddess of thieves with royal lineage everywhere!I think I've found my next character!
ya know what's funny? many campaign settings have universities and whatnot, but none of the characters ever bother to get degrees in anything. in theory, the highest intelligence you need to get a bachelor's is a 10 (if i remember right, that's the average int of a human). to get a PHD? possibly a 12 at most. practicing MD? 11-12, depending (since most of it is practical, and i have no experiance with medicine at all), and this is considered extremely intelligent by human standards. most wizards start the game with an int of 14-18. they could theoretically ace every class they take, take them at an accellerated rate and end up with PHDs in everything by the time the rest of the players get back from one adventure.
no real practical application, but a nice bit of trivia and fluff there.
(though i am tempted to write an article for some magazine just to create applications for this. why not have a masters in botony mean something?)
[rant]
I've heard this before. I don't like to brag, but as someone pursuing a double major with one leg in the Humanities and another in the Sciences (English literature and Biology, thank you very much), and the current proud owner of a 3.989 GPA, I think I have the credentials to offer an opinion: that's bunk. A person of "average" Intelligence is, in fact, not very smart at all. Think about it; an average person is at the height of the bell-curve of a society's collective intellect. 50% of the peopl out there are, by definition, smarter than they are. They may well not go to college, and if they do, they're going to struggle through.
Anyone who you might think of as "bright" or "quick" is probably the type of person in the 12-13 Intelligence range, since we're putting people into D&D terms. Even then, we're talking about the "average" college student, one who gets by all right, but is not likely to pursue even a Masters, let alone a PhD. I would say that actually attaining a PhD would require at least a 14, and more likely a 15 Intelligence. Of course, that really also depends on the field. A philosopher or, in my case, a student of literature, needs, again in D&D terms, as much Wisdom as Intelligence.
[/rant]
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...a whole lot of stuff rebuking me...
well thank you for your opinion on the matter. and your credentials are certainly...credentiable? eh. my major wasn't english. anyway. i think you may be right about this. looking over my earlier post, i think i may have been a bit understate-y about the ability scores, but my point is still valid. many characters, and not just wizards, have an int much higher then the required to get by. even if that is a 14, or maybe a 15 according to you. i havn't see anyone play a wizard who started with less then an 18 if they could help it, and gone so far as one who had a 21. i was posing a hypothetical based in fluff. why wouldn't these intelligent characters have gone through the universities? what effect might that have in game if they do? could this have some misc effect on the knowledge skills, possibly even on some more specialized ones? maybe having a backstory where your character gets a degree could possibly grant a +2 in knowledge (applicable) when it corresponds to the subject you studied? i was basically just posting for fun.
incidently, i do believe i have it in me to get a PHD, and never considered having an int over 12. so either i have poor self esteem or i misjudged the scale from the PHB. or a third possibility: the education standards have been getting admittedly lower over the years. is possible.
And don't even get me started on honerary degrees.
(also, it would be possible to apply this concept to any class. there are undoubtable fighter camps, religious acadamies, rogue schools. just takes soem imagination.)
Perhaps wizards don´t go to universities because they need so much time to study wizardry? A wizard with an INT of 12-13 is a lousy one, with INT 14-15 he does ok, with 16-17 he is really good, and 18+ has the potential for greatness. So, studying wizardry and being good at it needs the best students, and you could suppose that studying wizardry takes a lot of time, if you have to be quite far above average to excel.
Just an idea: You could take spell levels 0-2 as apprentice levels, 3-5 as journeyman, 6-8 as master and 9 as grand master. So, to be more than an apprentice wizard, you need an INT of 13 - which should be sufficient to become a master in most other fields. To be considered a master, you need an INT of 16 at least, which is more than almost everybody else would need for his work. (master spells include such nice things like anti-magic shell and disintegrate - I guess anyone able to command such magics could rightly be called master) And grand masters have a wish at their disposal - magic with nearly no limit. For this, you need superhuman intelligence.
Stefan
here's a bit on the actual saint. He was associated with the Northumbrian Abbey of Lindsfarne that the Vikings sacked. wiki link to St. Cuthbert
There was a great little module in Dragon 100 that had characters go to the British Museum in modern times searching for St. Cuthbert's Mace IIRC.
Also, why is he the only saint you ever hear about?
Let us not forget about St. Kargoth!