Racial Class Feature Substitution Levels

[Tectorman]

I like the change made from "+1 hit point per level of favored class" to "+1 hit point or skill rank per level of favored class".

Regardless, I can't help but think that the racial class feature substitution levels of the "Races of _____" books would be a better way to simulate certain race/class combinations being more powerful/ having more options/ being more stereotypical, etc. Maybe leaving Favored Classes out of the core books (considering that they're already pressed for space, or so I'm thinking) and just putting them in future supplements.

[Subversive]

Tectorman wrote:

I like the change made from "+1 hit point per level of favored class" to "+1 hit point or skill rank per level of favored class".

Regardless, I can't help but think that the racial class feature substitution levels of the "Races of _____" books would be a better way to simulate certain race/class combinations being more powerful/ having more options/ being more stereotypical, etc. Maybe leaving Favored Classes out of the core books (considering that they're already pressed for space, or so I'm thinking) and just putting them in future supplements.

I'm inclined to agree with this, myself (or alternately, with racial feats/traits). But I'm curious what James thinks, really, before developing it further.

-Steve

[Epic Meepo]

Fighter with favored class mechanics = 3+Int skill points per level
Fighter without favored class mechanics = 2+Int skill points per level

Conclusion: keep favored class mechanics.

[Eric Tillemans]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Fighter with favored class mechanics = 3+Int skill points per level

Fighter without favored class mechanics = 2+Int skill points per level

Conclusion: keep favored class mechanics.

I would much rather just change fighters to 4+int skill points per level and use racial substitution levels. I really don't like the Beta favored class 'bonus'.

[Subversive]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Fighter with favored class mechanics = 3+Int skill points per level

Fighter without favored class mechanics = 2+Int skill points per level

Conclusion: keep favored class mechanics.

Why? Is it necessary to the class that it receive 3 skill points/level? I don't understand your logic, aside from "more stuff = better" Why not give fighters +2 BAB per level? Wouldn't that be better too? Why not 2d10 hp/level instead of 1d10?

I don't see any real justification for it.

-Steve

[Tir Gwaith]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Fighter with favored class mechanics = 3+Int skill points per level

Fighter without favored class mechanics = 2+Int skill points per level

Conclusion: keep favored class mechanics.

For a conclusion, you need an argument, or a thesis and expansion. I see two statements of fact, or one comparison, and a conclusion, without any support.

At the risk of sounding like an teacher, would you please expand and add depth to your statement / argument?

[Epic Meepo]

Tir Gwaith wrote:

At the risk of sounding like an teacher, would you please expand and add depth to your statement / argument?

In past threads about fighter skill points (I don't have a link handy), many posters complained that fighters have never gotten enough skill points in 3.5. The most convincing arguments had nothing to do with class balance. Instead, they claimed that the limited number of fighter skill points per level, combined with the fighter's heavy reliance on stats other than Intelligence, resulted in most fighter characters being incredibly two-dimensional. Their selection of skills was so limited that it didn't realistically reflect the amount of skills that any adult should possess, even if that adult happened to focus heavily on combat training.

Other posters, myself included, argued that adding two additional skill points per level to the fighter class in order to shore up a perceived failing cheapened the skill-point advantages of other classes. Some classes need to receive 2+Int skill points per level in order to make the rogue's 8+Int skill points per level seem truly exceptional. And the fighter, so entirely focused on weapon training, made sense as the best candidate for the lowest possible amount of skill points per level.

So a dilemma presented itself for those involved in the "fighter skill point" threads. On the one hand, there were some reasonable arguments suggesting that fighters with the normally-alloted amount of skill points lacked depth. On the other hand, there was a strong argument for not changing the fighter class to explicitly provide more skill points per level.

Enter: a favored class mechanic that grants more skill points per level. This allows many members of classes with low skill points per level to have sufficient skills to reflect a realistic character background. At the same time, since that handful of extra skill points are the result of the favored class mechanic, which is independent of any one class description, the classes themselves are being left unchanged, their relative power largely intact.

In short, a favored class mechanic that allows characters the option to gain a few extra skill points is a nice compromise in one particularly heated debate that appeared on these boards a few months back. Proponents of higher-skill-point fighters can play fighters who get slightly more than 2+Int skill points per level, while proponents of leaving basic features of classes unchanged can be assured that the fighter class description retains its traditional 2+Int skill points per level.

Conclusion: the favored class mechanic should be retained because it provides a compromise solution to an ongoing debate about fighter skill points, allowing many fighters to attain more depth without directly altering the fighter class itself.

[Tir Gwaith]

Thanks for the expansion, EpicMeepo

So, Favored Class as it is now must stay because we have a balancing issue in skillpoints? I don't buy that. We are changing CORE mechanics, and balance is going to be weighed all over the place. Adding mechanic B as a partial fix to mechanic A is NOT a good solution. It doesn't fix mechanic A. I'd rather fix mechanic A, and then we can talk about some small benefits for mechanic B.

I've been going over skillpoints issues with my group because we didn't really like 3.5e skills (and the number of checks required for some actions), and came to a similar skill breakdown as PF (but not quite the same). In doing so, we've been re-evaluating the whole skillpoint issue. Big issue is that Rogues no no longer need lots and lots of skill points to get all their core skills. (Spot and Listen as one skill, Disable device and Open Lock as one skill, etc.)

The skill points per class should change. The Q becomes, how many is enough? Answer we came up with, and what we are still struggling with: 1) enough that a character with INT 10 can do all "core skills" of his class. In PF terms, that means a typical fighter should be able to get full max ranks in Climb, Intimidate, and Swim. Another classic route would be Ride, Climb, Survival. That means 3+INT. This is a subjective call, but balance is (unless extreme issues). It means typical class members can have typical skills, and players still ahve to make trade-off decisions to go outside the norm, and won't be able to get max ranks in all skills (far from it).

Now, our system still has cross class to buy ranks outside of class skills, and we enjoy it. Evaluation will need to be different from PF, where all skills are bought with one rank, and certain skills gain bonuses based on class. But the same evaluation needs to happen.

[Montalve]

in my games i always boost all classes 2 points
tis only fair

no balance issues, and the classes with few skill points have a few more options

[Archade]

Montalve wrote:

in my games i always boost all classes 2 points

tis only fair

no balance issues, and the classes with few skill points have a few more options

You guys realize that Pathfinder's elimination and merging of all these skills effectively grants classes more punch for their individual skill points?

If 10 out of 30 skills have been eliminated, that means 3.5 skill points are now worth 1.3 skillpoints in Pathfinder, if you get my meaning.

I think the bonus skill point per level from favored class is a fair addition, allowing tough characters or skilled characters, if that's the player's wish.

[Epic Meepo]

Tir Gwaith wrote:

...a typical fighter should be able to get full max ranks in Climb, Intimidate, and Swim. Another classic route would be Ride, Climb, Survival. That means 3+INT.

I don't see why a fighter should automatically be able to get full max ranks in any skill. Even a fighter with no ranks in any skill can fully fulfill his role as a fighter. It's not like a fighter is a wizard who needs Concentration to be effective in close quarters, or a rogue who needs Disable Device and Perception to make full use of trapfinding. Also, note that a character with Int 10 and fighter as a favored class does get 3+Int skill points per level.

On the other hand, see the Favored Class discussion thread for my thoughts on an alternative to the favored class mechanics.

[Tir Gwaith]

Epic Meepo wrote:

I don't see why a fighter should automatically be able to get full max ranks in any skill. Even a fighter with no ranks in any skill can fully fulfill his role as a fighter. It's not like a fighter is a wizard who needs Concentration to be effective in close quarters, or a rogue who needs Disable Device and Perception to make full use of trapfinding.

It is a balance issue. Skills are part of the mechanic of what a character can do. If a typical melee fighter can't get to his enemy, his pointless in that fight (and that character's Player is having no fun.) That means having some skills maxable (not that a character HAS to have max ranks in anything, although some classes it is worthless to not have some certain skills maxed). Your argument seems to be that a Fighter should get no skill points, and Rogue should get something close to 12 or more. That seems silly, and not a recipe for group fun.

Epic Meepo wrote:

Also, note that a character with Int 10 and fighter as a favored class does get 3+Int skill points per level.

I'm actually IGNORING that, because I've come to feel that the Favored Class mechanic isn't good. You should to, when figuring out class skill points. It should NOT be considered when looking at the skill points for a class as a balance issue. Otherwise, you make favored class not a bonus, but an actual penalty for those that don't, since they won't be balanced at the end. The idea everyone seems to agree on is that the mechanic shouldn't punish anyone for playing outside of stereotype.

Epic Meepo wrote:

On the other hand, see the Favored Class discussion thread for my thoughts on an alternative to the favored class mechanics.

I've seen that, and it is a viable solution. It becomes part of the Racial mechanic as such, and could be removed from some higher level races as a balance issue. (Basically, you can guarantee balance by doing race comparisons, not nebulous looking at lots of different cases as is the case with the +1Hp/skill thing.)

And sheesh, please repost your information if you want to make it in more than one thread. Some of us don't have hours to go reading EVERY post in every thread.

[Epic Meepo]

Tir Gwaith wrote:

And sheesh, please repost your information if you want to make it in more than one thread.

Epic Meepo wrote:

I'd prefer to see some sort of mechanic that reinforces racial archetypes. On the other hand, maybe there's a better way to to that than with favored classes.

For example:

Replace dwarves' favored classes with, "Dwarves gain 1 additional skill rank per level. Each of these ranks must be placed in Appraise, Craft, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), or Knowledge (history)." Note that these are all cleric and/or fighter class skills.

Replace elves' favored classes with, "Elves gain 1 additional skill rank per level. Each of these ranks must be placed in Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nature), Perception, Spellcraft, or Survival." Note that these are all ranger and/or wizard class skills.

Replace gnomes' favored classes with, "Gnomes gain 1 additional skill rank per level. Each of these ranks must be placed in Craft, Knowledge (arcana), Perform, Profession, or Spellcraft." Note that these are all bard and/or sorcerer class skills. (Most are also illusionist wizard class skills.)

Replace halfings' favored classes with, "Halflings gain 1 additional skill rank per level. Each of these ranks must be placed in Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Perform, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth." Note that these are all bard and rogue class skills.

Replace half-elves favored class and bonus Skill Focus feat with, "Adaptability: Half-elves gain 1 additional skill rank per level."

Replace half-orcs favored classes with, "Half-orcs gain 1 additional skill rank per level. Each of these skill ranks must be placed in Climb, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Survival, or Swim." Note that these are all barbarian and/or druid class skills. (Some are also rogue class skills, which fits with AD&D half-orcs, who excelled as assassins and thieves.)

Replace humans' favored class, 'skilled' racial ability, and weapon training with, "Ambitious: Humans gain 1 additional hit point and 1 additional skill rank per level." Note that the extra hit points are similar to the bonus hit points gained for advancing in a favored class. However, humans don't lose this bonus for multiclassing; thus, the ability replaces a second racial benefit (weapon training) in addition to the humans' favored class.