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If this is the tentative direction for channeling positive energy and its effect on undead what effect is negative energy going to have on the living when an evil cleric lets off with his Channel Energy ability?
If its to hold off or daze/stun the living wouldn't that make NPC evil clerics to powerful vs PCs?
If I were designing this, I'd have the undead held at bay as per sanctuary (with or without a save, whatever is the smoothest mechanic), and I'd have evil clerics rebuke undead to make them shaken.
I've revised it for my game as follows:
Turn Undead: Turning and Rebuking Undead works in the following fashion. In niether case does it have any effect upon living beings. Turning Undead deals 1d6 points of damage in a 30 foot radius to undead. This increases by 1d6 at every odd level. The undead may make a Will saving throw (DC 10+ 1/2 cleric level +Cha mod) to reduce the damage by half. Failing the Will save against a turning attempt also stuns the undead for 1 round per level of the cleric. Turn Resistance is applied as a bonus on this saving throw. An evil cleric may rebuke undead with the following effects. Rebuking undead heals 1d6 damage per odd level possessed by the cleric. It removes any stunned condition from a previously failed save against a turning attempt. If the undead fail a save versus a rebuking attempt the cleric may decide to awe the undead for a number of rounds equal to his cleric level. If his effective hit dice is double the hit dice of the undead it falls under his command. An evil cleric can command no more than twice his hit dice in undead through this power. He may decide to release previously commanded undead in order to command new undead or to leave the newly affected undead free.
And this is how I handle Fear Effects:
Fear Effects:
Shaken: as in the PHB, -2 penalty to attacks, saves, skill and ability checks.
Frightened: -4 penalty to attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks. Spellcraft DC 10+ spell level or lose any spell cast while frightened.
Panicked: As frightened but you drop anything held, must use one move action to immediately move away from the source of your fear, and are incapable of directly attacking the source of your fear. Spellcraft DC 20+ spell level or lose any spell cast while panicked (you may still target an area effect that will encompass the source of your fear).
PCs may continue to act under these conditions. Frightened or Panicked NPCs typically flee if they are experiencing a penalty equal to or greater than their will save bonus (if they now have a negative modifier). Magical fear effects can be removed using dispel magic, but it leaves the target shaken for the remainder of the effects duration. Remove fear will completely remove all fear from the subject. Certain events such as a directly imperiled loved one (not merely a comrade, but a lover, child, or parent) may allow an additional save to reduce the condition to shaken.
Special Note: PCs may chose to react to fear according to the standard rules (that is fleeing, but with only the penalties for being shaken) or remain and take the penalties listed above (despite their enormous vulnerability).
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I've revised it for my game as follows:
Turn Undead: Turning and Rebuking Undead works in the following fashion. In niether case does it have any effect upon living beings. Turning Undead deals 1d6 points of damage in a 30 foot radius to undead. This increases by 1d6 at every odd level. The undead may make a Will saving throw (DC 10+ 1/2 cleric level +Cha mod) to reduce the damage by half. Failing the Will save against a turning attempt also stuns the undead for 1 round per level of the cleric. Turn Resistance is applied as a bonus on this saving throw. An evil cleric may rebuke undead with the following effects. Rebuking undead heals 1d6 damage per odd level possessed by the cleric. It removes any stunned condition from a previously failed save against a turning attempt. If the undead fail a save versus a rebuking attempt the cleric may decide to awe the undead for a number of rounds equal to his cleric level. If his effective hit dice is double the hit dice of the undead it falls under his command. An evil cleric can command no more than twice his hit dice in undead through this power. He may decide to release previously commanded undead in order to command new undead or to leave the newly affected undead free.
rememeb, tehre is no more turning undead, but energy channeling (which i do like) and while positive energy turns and hurt undead and heal the living, the opposite is also true, negative energy hurts the livign and heal the undead
iand i advocate for this to continue being so, my party and the NPCs of Sandpoints are grateful for this
since the current rule is that they flee from the caster for 1d4+CHA modifier rounds, why not just say the undead may not approach or attack the cleric for 1d4+Cha modifer rounds but otherwise may act normally?The idea of making it an effect like sanctuary that allows saves each round sounds over complicated
I agree; keep it streamlined and not yet some other thing you have to keep track of every round, roll for ever round, for every undead in range. Just going to bog down combat.
The idea of them being forced out of the positive energy range seems like a good idea. Perhaps both fleeing and holding at be could be used? Undead who fail an initial Will save within the caster's positive energy area of effect must flee from that area and may not enter it again for rounds equal to 1d4+CHA modifier.
This way you keep the classic D&D 'turning' undead yet they don't flee so far that it becomes a logistical nightmare. I'm not a fan of making them run in fear or cower in fear; undead are fearless by nature. I like the idea of them being forced out of range by the sheer divine power of the caster; not out of fear.
As a random note, I'd like to see the feat extra turning renamed Extra Channeling. Turning is gone, Channeling is in.
Ok, but on to the real issue... ahem. You guys are nuts.
1. Blah blah, traditon, blah. It's always been that way, blah, I fear change, blah.
2. Ok, those kinds of arguments never convince anyone. Here's the real couple of reasons.
2-a. If you make this a Sanctuary effect on all characters with a save, then the undead effectively gets TWO saves against the cleric's turn. Suck! If you make it a sanctuary effect without a save, then the undead, if being played intelligently, ought to run, and you haven't changed anything.
2-b. Doing the cower mechanic, sitting there (whether helpless or not) is clearly worse (from the undead's perspective) than running away. At least in running away, you are not getting full attacked. You'd make turning/fear more powerful. Fear-ed creatures would be coup-de-gras bait if helpless, or effectively out of combat if not. And is it really fair that Fear in that case is a 5th level spell when you don't get Mass Hold Monster until you have 9th level spells, which also allows a save every round to overcome? You would totally blow Fear way out of proportion. If no Remove Fear spell or ability is on hand, the party *must* fight, and down a party member, or their ally will be killed. You have completely removed the option of retreating, which, someone affected by Fear should be all too willing to do. If the whole party (or most of it) gets affected by Fear while they run, they have a good chance to escape. If the party gets affected by Fear and they are cowering, the monster will likely kill them all. Forcing someone to cower is *much* more powerful than forcing them to run.
2-c. I don't see this mechanical nightmare you guys are talking about. If the undead is a non-solo monster, the PCs can fear them, kill their allies easier, and then go on mop up. If it's a solo monster, you give yourself a chance to heal up, re-buff, and then go kill it when the undead doesnt have that same luxury. If it's not intelligent then maybe it won't wander back to where the PCs are. If it's intelligent it eitehr comes back to attack the PCs (new combat, again after giving PCs a chance to re-buff and heal up), or runs for good (nightmare over). I never had a problem with it.
2-d. Fear-running is just nice. It gives the melee-ers AOOs probably, but not 1d4+cha mod free rounds of attacks. And Fear-running makes sense, I think. It's fear. you run. duh.
I agree on down grading to a dazed effect. I'd also limit the duration to 1 round + a round per Chr Mod. Furthmore, I'd add that if the cleric that delivered the CPE deals damage to a dazed undead the creature receives a second save to break the dazed effect.
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Here's my take on Channel Energy ...
Channel Energy
Drawing upon the power of your deity, you can cause a wave of energy to emanate from you, dealing damage to undead creatures or causing them to be held at bay for a number of rounds. With sufficient power, you can even cause them to be destroyed outright or bend them to your will.
Channeling energy is a supernatural ability you can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but you must be able to present your holy symbol to use this ability. Good characters, or those who worship good deities, use this ability to channel positive energy, which harms undead creatures and causes them to f lee. Evil characters, or those who worship evil deities, channel negative energy instead, which heals undead and can cause them to obey the will of the character. Neutral characters that worship neutral deities must choose whether to channel positive or negative energy when they gain this ability.
Some feats allow channeled energy to be used on other creatures. Regardless of the character’s alignment, such attempts only deal damage and do not cause such creatures to flee or allow the character to gain control of creatures other than undead.
Channel Positive Energy
When you channel positive energy, you unleash a wave of positive energy in a 30-foot burst. All undead in this radius take 1d6 points of positive energy damage plus 1d6 points of positive energy damage for every two cleric levels you have attained beyond 1st (1d6 at 1st level, 2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on) and suffer the effects of a sanctuary spell against yourself and all allies within 5 feet of you (meaning that undead affected by the burst must make a Will save to attempt to harm or otherwise target the cleric and her allies within 5 feet) for 1d4 rounds + your Charisma modifier. Undead in this radius are allowed a Will save that negates the sanctuary condition and results in half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Undead who take damage greater than their hit points crumble to dust and are destroyed by the power of your deity. If an undead subject to a current sanctuary effect is subject to channeled negative energy, it does receive a new saving throw to dispel the sanctuary effect.
Living creatures within the area are healed a like amount by this wave of positive energy. You can choose whether or not to include yourself in this effect. Hit points gained above a living creature’s total are lost.
Channel Negative Energy
When you channel negative energy, you unleash a wave of negative energy in a 30-foot burst. All living creatures in this radius take 1d6 points of negative energy damage plus 1d6 points of negative energy damage for every two cleric levels you have attained beyond 1st (1d6 at 1st level, 2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Living creatures in this radius are allowed a Will save that results in half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. You can choose whether or not to include yourself in this effect.
Undead creatures within the area are healed a like amount by this wave of negative energy. Hit points above the undead’s total are lost. Undead who are within the area of this effect must make a Will save or fall under your command. A cleric can command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. Clerics can relinquish control of undead to gain control of new undead. Commanding undead is a standard action that requires line of effect. Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each day to break free of from your command. If a commanded undead is subject to channeled positive energy, it might suffer the sanctuary effect, but it also receives a new saving throw to dispel the command effect.
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2-c. I don't see this mechanical nightmare you guys are talking about. If the undead is a non-solo monster, the PCs can fear them, kill their allies easier, and then go on mop up. If it's a solo monster, you give yourself a chance to heal...
he is right about this
whatever the PCs can do, so the monstersyes Extra Turning should be changed to extra channeling
and I DO like the idea of positie energy causing damege to undeads and helaing the living (quite appropiate) and viceversa negative nergy, hurting the living and healing the dead
Suggestion for a potential fix: go with mounting penalties (as an above poster describes) that diminish over rounds if the character chooses to run by selecting the Withdraw action. Each turn you select to withdraw, the fear penalty decreases a step, encouraging but not forcing characters to run.
This keeps the "run away!" aspect of fear, but makes it an option to the beleaguered PC (or NPC) instead of cramming it down their throat. Sometimes a PC may well be able to shrug off the fear penalties, and in this case it makes complete sense for them to choose to stay in the fight.
On the other hand, if you are scared enough as a player, you can choose the road of cowardice, and after a few actions the fear condition will subside, after you've regrouped.
My 2 cents.
One thing should be noted, undead are immune to stunning/dazing effects. I mention this only because using those mechanics will require either specifically noting an exception under the undead type description or restating the stun/daze effect under channel energy without referencing stun or daze.
I am not staying stun or daze cannot be used, we just need to be aware of how it will effect other rules.
what if it was called Cowred and transfixed not stunned and dazed