To be fair this isn't an attack on 4E adventures necessarily so please don't get hung up on that idea.
Its more to do with poor quality adventures put out since the late 2nd edition period and equaly in the 3rd edition period and now finally into the 4E.
From what I understand the first few adventures put out for 4E were really a hack fest.
Has anyone else found the same so far.
I find this unfortunate because I still have a few 'Old' adventures from back in the AD&D era( not even 2nd Ed!!) that were far superior to the later ones. One in particular is UNDER ILLEFARN, which gets the PCs involved as militiamen and continues on introducing them to local people( npc's) then finally getting involved and fighting a militia war in the underground dwarf home near ILLFARN between a Dwarf faction, An Orc faction and a Necromancer\skeleton\human faction. It's a brilliant and confusingly 3 dimentional dungeon with members of these faction there to bump into and either join or fight against.
What've other people found so far?
What've other people found so far?
So far all the 4E adventures I've seen have focused on combat. It is somewhat understandable at this point because they likely want people to get used to the new combat rules and tactics. I've seen several players get themselves into trouble in 4E because they were still thinking in 3E terms.
I suspect, and hope, that this will change when the players AND the adventure writers become more familiar with the system.
Until then, if you want something more story driven, I suggest either converting an old module or homebrewing something. I understand, however, that some people don't have time for that sort of thing. If that's the case I would suggest sticking with a previous edition until things change. Hopefully they improve the GSL enough for more third party adventures to get published and speed up the likelihood of changes being made.
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Well, WotC modules usually focus almost wholly on combat, even in 3rd edition. Plot takes a distinct back seat to the ability to beat things up. I'm hoping once the GSL gets sorted out into something useful that 3rd party publishers will be able to put out a few well-rounded modules. Best case scenario: the GSL is open enough that Paizo can put out a few 4e modules and raise the bar about thirteen feet. Of course, based on past performance, the odds of this happening are somewhat low.
Well, WotC modules usually focus almost wholly on combat, even in 3rd edition. Plot takes a distinct back seat to the ability to beat things up. I'm hoping once the GSL gets sorted out into something useful that 3rd party publishers will be able to put out a few well-rounded modules. Best case scenario: the GSL is open enough that Paizo can put out a few 4e modules and raise the bar about thirteen feet. Of course, based on past performance, the odds of this happening are somewhat low.
This is true, though its worth noting that Dungeons model of picking the best from 110 different submissions has historically made their material very good. The best of the freelancers - when they are putting their best foot forward, make extremely good product as well.
I recall reading an interview by Wolfgang from back in the day when he worked under Barbara Young at Dungeon and he mentioned that one of the things he and Barbara avoided like the plague was taking submissions from the staff since the staff just assumed that they were so great that of course they would be accepted but both Barbara and Wolfgang considered much of the staff work to be really sub par compared to the best stuff in the submissions pile.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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This is true, though its worth noting that Dungeons model of picking the best from 110 different submissions has historically made their material very good. The best of the freelancers - when they are putting their best foot forward, make extremely good product as well.
I recall reading an interview by Wolfgang from back in the day when he worked under Barbara Young at Dungeon and he mentioned that one of the things he and Barbara avoided like the plague was taking submissions from the staff since the staff just assumed that they were so great that of course they would be accepted but both Barbara and Wolfgang considered much of the staff work to be really sub par compared to the best stuff in the submissions pile.
Wholly agreed. WotC has some decent designers, but their adventure writing leaves much to be improved upon. I only hope they start getting solicitations for the Digital Dragon from outside to improve the quality of those offerings.
Wholly agreed. WotC has some decent designers, but their adventure writing leaves much to be improved upon. I only hope they start getting solicitations for the Digital Dragon from outside to improve the quality of those offerings.This is true, though its worth noting that Dungeons model of picking the best from 110 different submissions has historically made their material very good. The best of the freelancers - when they are putting their best foot forward, make extremely good product as well.
I recall reading an interview by Wolfgang from back in the day when he worked under Barbara Young at Dungeon and he mentioned that one of the things he and Barbara avoided like the plague was taking submissions from the staff since the staff just assumed that they were so great that of course they would be accepted but both Barbara and Wolfgang considered much of the staff work to be really sub par compared to the best stuff in the submissions pile.
I don't think its just that they don't have talent in adventure writing. Some of them have written extraordinary material in the past. I just think that the model of 'writing adventures on demand' is not a really good way of going about crafting adventures. Thats not to say that a certain amount of adventure 'on demand' is not possible, It seems like Nick Logue and others have been able to consistently put out good material but I'm not sure that would remain true if one tried to get it so that he wrote adventures in that vein for years and years. Historically that just seems to not really work.
I'm not even really sure why this is so and I suspect that there is no one reason still it seems like even great writers, like Chris Perkins, can just be tapped out. I mean when was the last time Chris wrote anything to compare with The Lich-Queens Beloved or Tears for Twilight Hollow?
Wholly agreed. WotC has some decent designers, but their adventure writing leaves much to be improved upon. I only hope they start getting solicitations for the Digital Dragon from outside to improve the quality of those offerings.This is true, though its worth noting that Dungeons model of picking the best from 110 different submissions has historically made their material very good. The best of the freelancers - when they are putting their best foot forward, make extremely good product as well.
I recall reading an interview by Wolfgang from back in the day when he worked under Barbara Young at Dungeon and he mentioned that one of the things he and Barbara avoided like the plague was taking submissions from the staff since the staff just assumed that they were so great that of course they would be accepted but both Barbara and Wolfgang considered much of the staff work to be really sub par compared to the best stuff in the submissions pile.
I don't think its just that they don't have talent in adventure writing. Some of them have written extraordinary material in the past. I just think that the model of 'writing adventures on demand' is not a really good way of going about crafting adventures. Thats not to say that a certain amount of adventure 'on demand' is not possible, It seems like Nick Logue and others have been able to consistently put out good material but I'm not sure that would remain true if one tried to get it so that he wrote adventures in that vein for years and years. Historically that just seems to not really work.
I'm not even really sure why this is so and I suspect that there is no one reason still it seems like even great writers, like Chris Perkins, can just be tapped out. I mean when was the last time Chris wrote anything to compare with The Lich-Queens Beloved or Tears for Twilight Hollow?
I find it comical really because why were the 'old' adventures better. Its not just a lot of nostalgia, they seem to be better structured, have a solid storyline and allow for considerable roleplaying alongside a nice element of combat to spice things up. If WOTC don't have the capacity\imagination to create decent adventures then maybe they should be producing removable encounter folders that contain nothing but combat encounters, maybe a map of a location for the encouter and creature combat details so a DM can just slip that encounter into the adventure.
I like the Dragon concept of short modular adventures that require little prep time. I dunno if any group I could put together could finish an adventure that took more than one session.
Paizo ceratinly needs to negotiate a GSL they can live with and start making stuff for 4e though, their quality level is tops and I don't see 4e going anywhere... despite the critics a LOT of people are getting back into gaming with this version.
I have H1-H3 on order but if I don't like them I will probably be convert my Pathfinder subscription adventures instead because they're so rich.
How hard has the conversion been? How time-consuming? Or do the new DM adventure creation tools in 4e streamline this?
In a nutshell how scared should time-strapped GMs be of upconverting Paizo?
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Actually, pretty easy, especially when you can sort of "cut&paste" monsters from the Monster Manual into the encounters.
For NPCs or non-standard creatures, pick one or two powers, decide if they are at-will or recharge, boost hitpoints according to the DM toolbox in the DMG (ie either as class or creature template) and you're ready to rock.
It took me about an hour to convert the encounters in Steelheart (from Dungeon#53). It took less to do TC1 Into the Haunted Forest.
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A 4e "Book of Encounters" would be very cool. It would just need some balanced, statted monsters, a map of each encounter area, and traps. A few skill challenges would be good, as well, especially if they're creative.
A friend of mine who has done some 4e freelance work for one notable 3pp is working on this exact thing right now. I don't know when it'll be announced or released, but it's in the works. He's my GM for Savage Tide, and if it contains anything like some of the additions he's made to that path, it'll be exactly what you're looking for.
Thanks Maktaka, that's very encouraging that a full adventure only took an hour to convert -- that hour probably also gave you a better idea of the adventure so would have been time well spent even if you weren't converting. You probably just sold a copy of Lair of the Kobold King, right there.
How hard has the conversion been? How time-consuming? Or do the new DM adventure creation tools in 4e streamline this?
In a nutshell how scared should time-strapped GMs be of upconverting Paizo?
I converted the first half of Sins of the Savior rather quickly. Honestly, its not that hard as long as you are willing to be a little flexible (I changed some of the summoned monsters). Converting the named characters isn't to bad using the dmg. In fact they are a good deal easier to run.