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Disclaimer:
1) I'm aware that more than half of this post is a rant.
2) I'm not even hoping it would actually change anything in the rules (now that would be great, but I'm not having any hopes about it).
3) I LOVE Pathfinder, and will keep playing it because it has a SOUL (with house-rule changes but still, what draws me to it is the soul of the game, not necessarily its rules).
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Ok disclaimer done, on with the post:
The people from my d20 mailing list and I started Playtesting Pathfinder just recently (again, LOVE it), with the difference that, for all things regarding magic, we're using 3.0 instead of 3.5, here's the reason why:
You can't narrate a fantasy tale with videogame magic
3.0's magic feels more like the magic of fantasy tales, while 3.5's magic is rather the "magic" you'd find in a videogame. Could you narrate anything the likes of The Last Unicorn with 3.5's magic? No? Yeah I thought so. The only way a GM could be able to narrate a fantasy tale with 3.5's magic would be using plot devices to justify the existence of real magic. For one, I hate plot devices, I hate a GM telling his players "he can do so and so because he's an NPC, you can't". I like to give my players equality, so as a rule of thumb, if an NPC can do something, my players can do so too (or will be able to in some levels).
Am I the only one who thinks 3.5's magic is simlpy not worth it? Am I the only one who thinks a dingy +1 to save DC from 3.5's Spell Focus is rather a complete waste of a feat? Is it something wrong with me for wanting in my stories the magic of fantasy tales without resorting to plot devices? Am I the only one who thinks spellcasters shouldn't be forced to rely on item creation feats to have any resemblance to the real thing?
i still use 3.0 magic in my home games . I find 3.5 changes in time just to short and makes the so called 15 min day much much worse.
Wait, what? The big differences from 3.0 are nerfed Righteous Might/Divine Favor, slightly (but irrelevantly) nerfed Shapechange, and nerfed Haste (two spells a round lol).
How does any given spell in the 3.5 paradigm make the game feel "video game"-y rather than "fantasy"-y? That's ridiculous.
spell duration from 3.0 to 3.5 look em up.
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*sigh* you created the same thread in different sections of the forums (i.e. same thread in Playtests).
This is spam, you know, and kind of rude to tell you the truth. Please post a single thread about a topic you'd like to talk about. Don't spam the boards. Thanks!
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Now, here's my original post in answer to yours, Dogbert:
There's nothing wrong with what you're saying, per se. I just don't understand what, specifically, necessitates some plot devices in 3.5 and not 3.0.
Could you give the specific examples you have not yet spelled out?
Thanks!
spell duration from 3.0 to 3.5 look em up.
Which ones? 3.5 still has hour/level spells, Dominate is still day/level. What changes SPECIFICALLY are so important they change the feel from "fantasy" to "OMG VIDEO GAME LOLOLOL"?
well to me its not really vidoe gamey but the buff spells come to mind have to run em down one by one to get a list since i do not use em.
well to me its not really vidoe gamey but the buff spells come to mind have to run em down one by one to get a list since i do not use em.
The big duration nerfs hit the Bull's X spells, which gave characters big stat boosts for hours and made stat-boosting items more or less useless right up until +6.
I don't see how a spell that boosts your strength/agility/intelligence for hours is "fantasy", while one that does so for minutes is "lol video game".
In fact, I think you're just lashing out in a totally irrational way at a change you didn't like (but have certainly had enough time to get used to; Christ, it's been YEARS).
Am I the only one who thinks 3.5's magic is simlpy not worth it?
Probably. Have you actually played 3.5?
well to me its not really vidoe gamey but the buff spells come to mind have to run em down one by one to get a list since i do not use em.The big duration nerfs hit the Bull's X spells, which gave characters big stat boosts for hours and made stat-boosting items more or less useless right up until +6.
I don't see how a spell that boosts your strength/agility/intelligence for hours is "fantasy", while one that does so for minutes is "lol video game".
In fact, I think you're just lashing out in a totally irrational way at a change you didn't like (but have certainly had enough time to get used to; Christ, it's been YEARS).
LOL it was the op's thread I just dont like some of the changes but happy use in pbp games and such just for home use I like the old durations better. And really its the durations I tend to dislike. My group has never had this so called 15 min day but seemed to me the smaller duration didnt help to each there own and all.
i for one prefer 3.0 magic in general, 3.5 is too damn downgraded :S
a character is no use if he is only useful for the first or 3nd encounter, then he is not ebcause his spells work in rounds or encounters :S
that sucks
Again, what was downgraded? The stat-boost spells, Shapechange, Haste... not that much else.
You realize 3.5 spellcasters are gambreakingly powerful, right? And you don't think that's ENOUGH?
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Wait, what? The big differences from 3.0 are nerfed Righteous Might/Divine Favor, slightly (but irrelevantly) nerfed Shapechange, and nerfed Haste (two spells a round lol).
How does any given spell in the 3.5 paradigm make the game feel "video game"-y rather than "fantasy"-y? That's ridiculous.
spells that lasted 10 minutes per level in 3.5 last 1 round per level
for starters
spells that lasted 10 minutes per level in 3.5 last 1 round per level
for starters
I agree that changes similar to this in 3.5 were "fixing" a problem that didn't really exist, which is why I've house ruled a whole bunch of them back to 10 min/level. But to say that the changes take the game from fantasy story/epic magic to video game magic? That's hyperbole.
By the way, the big nerfs have already been mentioned here, but there are many more dozens of other minor changes between 3.0 and 3.5 spells. I really have the impression that it was a project that had a whole lot of scope creep.
spells that lasted 10 minutes per level in 3.5 last 1 round per level
for starters
There were already tons of rounds/level spells. There are still TONS of 10 min/level spells. The only difference is that a handful of individual spells got nerfed.
A FEW INDIVIDUAL SPELLS' DURATIONS CAN NOT POSSIBLY AFFECT THE FEEL OF A GAME THAT MUCH. But, please, tell me all about how Shield of Law or whatever getting nerfed OMG RUINED SPELLCASTERS for you.
spells that lasted 10 minutes per level in 3.5 last 1 round per level
for starters
There were already tons of rounds/level spells. There are still TONS of 10 min/level spells. The only difference is that a handful of individual spells got nerfed.
A FEW INDIVIDUAL SPELLS' DURATIONS CAN NOT POSSIBLY AFFECT THE FEEL OF A GAME THAT MUCH. But, please, tell me all about how Shield of Law or whatever getting nerfed OMG RUINED SPELLCASTERS for you.
I agree...this whole thread seems to focus on an issue that is totally blown out of proportion. I went through the change of 3.0 to 3.5 (I even still have all my 3.0 books) and there was nothing at all that changed about the feel of the game (and I was a part of two games at the time...DM in one, player in the other). Many of the differences were so minor that I had to push my players to go out and buy their own copy of the 3.5 Player's Handbook; they didn't think it was such a drastic change to warrant paying for another book.
Furthermore, if the OP is accusing 3.5 of being be *so* video game like I do not want to even know their perspective on 4th edition.
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I agree...this whole thread seems to focus on an issue that is totally blown out of proportion. I went through the change of 3.0 to 3.5 (I even still have all my 3.0 books) and there was nothing at all that changed about the feel of the game (and I was a part of two games at the time...DM in one, player in the other). Many of the differences were so minor that I had to push my players to go out and buy their own copy of the 3.5 Player's Handbook; they didn't think it was such a drastic change to warrant paying for another book.
Furthermore, if the OP is accusing 3.5 to be *so* video game like than 3.0 I do not want to even know their perspective on 4th edition.
i never got the 3.5 books, a friend had them, we used his for clases, being both master and player i have allowed the classes from 3.5 and their modifications, the spells list and similar things 3.0
I decided not to get the core rules for 3.5 because with the ones in 3.0 and the SRD we have everything to play... the spells and the death of Ravenloft decided my hand. I don't have anything else to do with WotC.
we checked the changes of 4.0... but to play WoW... i would play the real thing and not a pen and paper version that doesn't feels like rpg but a minis game... i suppose the OP feels like :P but that is up to him :P (old friend of mine, similar perpsectives)
and the problem with shield of faith for clerics or shield for wizard is that you spend a spell (of the few you have) for an encounter... while fighter's feats can be used any time, sneak attack is good for all day long.
a 1st level wizard is not only useless after the 1st and the 2nd alfo its quite vulnerable, and i am not talking about alldamage dealer wizars, the focus in combat spells leave little options to play as true RPG.
we checked the changes of 4.0... but to play WoW... i would play the real thing and not a pen and paper version that doesn't feels like rpg but a minis game... i suppose the OP feels like :P but that is up to him :P (old friend of mine, similar perpsectives)
The WoW comparison is old and trite.
You know, 3.x is like WoW. Characters are supposed to get tons of magic items as they level up, and gear is vastly important--most of your character's effectiveness comes from his gear. On top of that, you get XP only by killing monsters, not also by or social and other challenges.
On top of that, you spend a lot of time "building" your character, and then follow your preset plan as you level up--and your build is IMPORTANT! For example, the Combat Reflexes/Battlefield Control spec for Fighters is superior to all others and the TWF/Dex spec is awful.
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The WoW comparison is old and trite.
You know, 3.x is like WoW. Characters are supposed to get tons of magic items as they level up, and gear is vastly important--most of your character's effectiveness comes from his gear. On top of that, you get XP only by killing monsters, not also by or social and other challenges.
On top of that, you spend a lot of time "building" your character, and then follow your preset plan as you level up--and your build is IMPORTANT! For example, the Combat Reflexes/Battlefield Control spec for Fighters is superior to all others and the TWF/Dex spec is awful.
actually wow lets you get experience by completing goals, even a few social ones (like returning his medalion to the banshee queen or delivering items). and i do like WoW... i just prefer it in the computer... i refer more options while creating my character, and 3.5 doesn't has mana to spellcast all day long.
3.0 in general after AD&D 2nd Edition gave you options to create diferent types of characters, and versatility was well received.. we missed 2nd edition magic but well there were things we could let pass...
3.5 diluted spells even more (forget about polymorph or your problems with the cleric's "Divine Power", check Wish... in 3.0 it became limited wish for a 9th level spell, 3.5 dilutes it even more!)
and yes i still evaluate experience like in 2nd edition, meaning i give experience for reaching goals not only, sometimes not even for killing foes
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You know guys... these kinds of arguments are old and trite now.
On both sides.
It's time to move on and try to be constructive. If getting your point across means feeding a debate you know damn well won't get anywhere, then don't post at all. Please. You're just fueling the silly sniping.
Thank you.
actually wow lets you get experience by completing goals, even a few social ones (like returning his medalion to the banshee queen or delivering items). and i do like WoW... i just prefer it in the computer... i refer more options while creating my character, and 3.5 doesn't has mana to spellcast all day long.
3.0 in general after AD&D 2nd Edition gave you options to create diferent types of characters, and versatility was well received.. we missed 2nd edition magic but well there were things we could let pass...
3.5 diluted spells even more (forget about polymorph or your problems with the cleric's "Divine Power", check Wish... in 3.0 it became limited wish for a 9th level spell, 3.5 dilutes it even more!)
and yes i still evaluate experience like in 2nd edition, meaning i give experience for reaching goals not only, sometimes not even for killing foes
3.5 wish is actually more powerful than 3.0 wish because it can make any magic item, with no GP cap.
Just about everyone who likes WoW prefers it on the computer. Comparing any edition to WoW is trite and futile.
Your 3.x character can have several reserve feats, picking up "at-will powers" that range from shooting lightning bolts out of his eyes to short-range teleportation, meaning he can "never run out of mana".
"i still evaluate experience like in 2nd edition, meaning i give experience for reaching goals not only, sometimes not even for killing foes"
This is NOT "like in 2nd edition". In AD&D you get experience for (a) killing monsters and (b) taking their stuff. That's it. Period.
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3.5 wish is actually more powerful than 3.0 wish because it can make any magic item, with no GP cap.
Just about everyone who likes WoW prefers it on the computer. Comparing any edition to WoW is trite and futile.
"i still evaluate experience like in 2nd edition, meaning i give experience for reaching goals not only, sometimes not even for killing foes"
This is NOT "like in 2nd edition". In AD&D you get experience for (a) killing monsters and (b) taking their stuff. That's it. Period.
i hate the idea that characters depend on magical items to be able to play at all, that is why i liked both Arcana Evolved and Iron Heroes
i suppose you never saw the Optional Experience when you gave experience for roleplaying correctly, good ideas, using sells effectively in new ways, etc? how sad :P
but as someone else poointed this discussion is pointless... i am asking my DM toi keep 3.0 magic... either that or the wizard will stop being wizard and take another class... which botches my whole character concepto (i am the cleric), and with the paladinshe is the tank
i suppose you never saw the Optional Experience when you gave experience for roleplaying correctly, good ideas, using sells effectively in new ways, etc? how sad :Pbut as someone else poointed this discussion is pointless... i am asking my DM toi keep 3.0 magic... either that or the wizard will stop being wizard and take another class... which botches my whole character concepto (i am the cleric), and with the paladinshe is the tank
I never saw it, now. Regardless, it's optional. The system assumes you'll be getting XP from killing things and taking their stuff. AD&D has a lot of optional rules[/i], including the facepalm-inducing Weapon vs. Armor table.
I still don't know what spells, specifically, are so very important to you that losing them stops you from playing a caster.
"With the paladin she is the tank"
Tank?! OMG 3.0 IS WoW!
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I never saw it, now. Regardless, it's optional. The system assumes you'll be getting XP from killing things and taking their stuff. AD&D has a lot of optional rules[/i], including the facepalm-inducing Weapon vs. Armor table.
I still don't know what spells, specifically, are so very important to you that losing them stops you from playing a caster.
"With the paladin she is the tank"
Tank?! OMG 3.0 IS WoW!
yeah... i hate it... but everyone use that freaking language in the table i got used :P
she just goes in fornt in battle while the others cover... and its only for the armor... her bab sucks and she is better at sense motive and diplomacybut who said i knew or was interested in making a tank... suddenly the table was full of rogues, wizards, sorceres and bards :P (ok only rogues, there is only oe of the others)
for my? Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, magic weaapon, all the attribut enhancements (which usually i gave to other characters) ok i understand the problem with Divine Power... and that one is just munchkin, but i love that one
and i will just stop being a Cleric for a Rogue... for not having half of the class usefulness after 2 rounds... i would prfer playing a pladin over a cleric... but i can try to play my cleric...
he is the one who will not play a wizard...
for my? Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, magic weaapon, all the attribut enhancements (which usually i gave to other characters) ok i understand the problem with Divine Power... and that one is just munchkin, but i love that one
???
Magic Vestment is Hours/Level and awesome. Magic Weapon quickly gets replaced with Greater Magic Weapon, which is also Hours/Level and awesome.The attribute enhancements and Shield of Faith were justifiably nerfed. Divine Power was always rounds/level, even in 2E.
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for my? Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, magic weaapon, all the attribut enhancements (which usually i gave to other characters) ok i understand the problem with Divine Power... and that one is just munchkin, but i love that one???
Magic Vestment is Hours/Level and awesome. Magic Weapon quickly gets replaced with Greater Magic Weapon, which is also Hours/Level and awesome.The attribute enhancements and Shield of Faith were justifiably nerfed. Divine Power was always rounds/level, even in 2E.
ok my mistake in Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon... but in general you leave low level chars pretty vulnerable by nerfing their survival spells
but thats me as cleric, the wizard is different bussiness that i don't really udnerstand
but one thing is true... +1 DC for spell focus... you get robed a feat :S
DC doesn't grow much... but SAVES do grow a lot... someone in another thread put examples o monsters Saving Throws... and this are obscene! those monsters save pretty easily, and the few feats that helped a bit, get nerfed
ok my mistake in Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon... but in general you leave low level chars pretty vulnerable by nerfing their survival spellsbut thats me as cleric, the wizard is different bussiness that i don't really udnerstand
but one thing is true... +1 DC for spell focus... you get robed a feat :S
DC doesn't grow much... but SAVES do grow a lot... someone in another thread put examples o monsters Saving Throws... and this are obscene! those monsters save pretty easily, and the few feats that helped a bit, get nerfed
Low-level clerics are going to get more mileage out of Cure Light anyway. Shield of Faith lasting for 10 minutes rather than 1 will only rarely get you through a second fight (who has 2 fights in 10 minutes at level 1?).
Low-level clerics are good.
As for Spell Focus, +2 DC was too much. Examples of monsters' saving throws? A CR 10 DRAGON--you know, the things with all good saves and a bunch of hit dice--has +14F/+10R/+12W. +12 Will save? A wizard will be beating that 45-50% of the time, and Spell Focus only helps. That means that it takes the wizard an average of 2 rounds/spells to take the dragon out of the fight!
Spell Focus isn't necessary. Save-or-lose spells are the kings of 3.5 already--just don't target the strongest save
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Low-level clerics are going to get more mileage out of Cure Light anyway. Shield of Faith lasting for 10 minutes rather than 1 will only rarely get you through a second fight (who has 2 fights in 10 minutes at level 1?).
Low-level clerics are good.
for example the 1st Path Adventure presents a goblin raide, there is about 3 or 4 combats in sequence... after the 1st one the cleric or the wizard would habe spent all their protections
as a Cleric i left Cure spells for last resources... that is why i get clerics that are not followers of healers... i like to try different concepts, this one is vanguard, justice seaker... but in general church investigator
As for Spell Focus, +2 DC was too much. Examples of monsters' saving throws? A CR 10 DRAGON--you know, the things with all good saves and a bunch of hit dice--has +14F/+10R/+12W. +12 Will save? A wizard will be beating that 45-50% of the time, and Spell Focus only helps. That means that it takes the wizard an average of 2 rounds/spells to take the dragon out of the fight!
Spell Focus isn't necessary. Save-or-lose spells are the kings of 3.5 already--just don't target the strongest save
maybe but taking 2 Feats for bare +2 in dC... is just absurd... it would be better to leave Spell Focus like that, and don't use Greater Spell Focus... or that i does something else entirelly
Enough is enough.
While everyone likes seeing a thread he started grow, a flamewar is just arguing for arguing's sake. It's obvious that neither side is going to convert the other. I have read thoroughly the descriptions for most spells and feats on both 3.0 and 3.5, thus made my choice, so have others.
Can a moderator please lock this topic before it further burns?
P.D: Didn't mean to spam, but my connection was giving me problems at the time and thought it hadn't sent anything that first time. Still, I apologize.
Enough is enough.
While everyone likes seeing a thread he started grow, a flamewar is just arguing for arguing's sake. It's obvious that neither side is going to convert the other. I have read thoroughly the descriptions for most spells and feats on both 3.0 and 3.5, thus made my choice, so have others.
Can a moderator please lock this topic before it further burns?
P.D: Didn't mean to spam, but my connection was giving me problems at the time and thought it hadn't sent anything that first time. Still, I apologize.
This post would make more sense IF YOU HADN'T STARTED THE THREAD.
You know, the one saying that 3.5 magic is video gamey (but 3.0 magic is TOTALLY DIFFERENT, because, ZOH EM GEE, LIKE SIX SPELLS HAVE LONGER DURATIONS stop the presses).
So this is pretty hypocritical of you.
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for example the 1st Path Adventure presents a goblin raide, there is about 3 or 4 combats in sequence... after the 1st one the cleric or the wizard would habe spent all their protections
as a Cleric i left Cure spells for last resources... that is why i get clerics that are not followers of healers... i like to try different concepts, this one is vanguard, justice seaker... but in general church investigator
And why exactly does that require having defensive buffs up constantly?
Indeed, why would any cleric or wizard build absolutely rely on having constant defensive buffs up? At that rate, why not complain that mage armor only lasts 1 hour for a 1st level wizard, and means he can only cast a single spell for the entire rest of the day?And that leads to the entire premise that a cleric or wizard must cast a spell every round or it is not "proper", even at low levels. That was not definitely not supported in 3E without the use of magic items, and it was not changed in 3.5.
Enough is enough.
While everyone likes seeing a thread he started grow, a flamewar is just arguing for arguing's sake. It's obvious that neither side is going to convert the other. I have read thoroughly the descriptions for most spells and feats on both 3.0 and 3.5, thus made my choice, so have others.
Can a moderator please lock this topic before it further burns?
P.D: Didn't mean to spam, but my connection was giving me problems at the time and thought it hadn't sent anything that first time. Still, I apologize.
So your second post of the thread is to say you refuse to defend your position at all?
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So your second post of the thread is to say you refuse to defend your position at all?
No
he just hate FlameWars, know him from long time... i love to feed the trolls.. but he expose a valid point... he didn't liked the magic because it felt... well it didn't felt like magic, not true magic... (he is old fan of Mage: The Awakening, DnD doesn't goes to the level of posibilities Mage gives, but that is different matter)he just says that is his position, and he is not changing... as he stated, he ranted a though, because of that he is flamed. he decides not just not feed the troll.
but hey, you can keep without him or me the discussion...
the DM wants someone to DM another adventure... he tries to convince me... i told him yes but when Pathfinder's Campaign Setting arrives to my home and i get to read it a bit... that gives me about two months to change the 3.5 magic that Pathfinder's use to Arcana Evolved kind of Magic :)
now you can Flame, please
because that is MAGIC and FEELS like MAGIC, which gave back its soul to D20 spells :)...
so long :) until other threads
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Enough is enough.
While everyone likes seeing a thread he started grow, a flamewar is just arguing for arguing's sake. It's obvious that neither side is going to convert the other. I have read thoroughly the descriptions for most spells and feats on both 3.0 and 3.5, thus made my choice, so have others.
Can a moderator please lock this topic before it further burns?
P.D: Didn't mean to spam, but my connection was giving me problems at the time and thought it hadn't sent anything that first time. Still, I apologize.
Paizo don't moderate unless they really have to.
