"Designer Notes: Prestige Skills
With the changes to the skill system, the requirements
to enter various prestige classes must change as well.
Whenever a prestige class calls for a number of skill ranks,
you can qualify for the prestige class if you meet that number
of ranks –3 if you also have the skill as a class skill. If you do
not have the skill as a class skill, you must possess double
that number of ranks. For example, a 3.5 prestige class might
require eight ranks in Move Silently. In the Pathfinder RPG, it
instead requires five ranks of the Stealth skill if Stealth is one
of your class skills and ten ranks if it is not."Huh? How does that math compute.
Also, was skill points x 4 at 1st broken, that it needed to be changed?
My players would be seriously non-plussed if I told them they'd lose 16-32 skill points.Why was this done?
The language is a bit confusing here, but you're not actually "losing" any skill points. As a matter of fact, a converted character will end up with a few extra points if he has cross-class skills.
In 3.5, max ranks at 1st level for a class skill was 4. In PfRPG, max ranks at 1st level for a class skill is 1 plus a bonus of 3 points because it's a class skill, so the total is still 4.
In 3.5, max ranks at 1st level for a cross-class skill was .5. In PfRPG, max ranks at 1st level for a cross-class skill is 1 (no +3 bonus, but you get a full rank for your skill point).
So, in the example given above, the prestige class that requires 8 ranks requires 5 ranks plus your 3 point class-skill bonus -- still equivalent to 8 ranks. If Stealth is not a class skill for your character, you'd have to spend -- oh, wait. You're right; the math looks wrong.
By my understanding, a character without Stealth as a class skill would require 8 ranks, not 10 to qualify for the prestige class. Am I wrong, or is the Beta wrong?
Well, either way, your cross-class-skill-using character is still coming out ahead. In 3.5, 8 ranks in a cross-class skill would require 16 skill points, so even if 10 is the right number, you're still getting to the prestige class earlier.
By my understanding, a character without Stealth as a class skill would require 8 ranks, not 10 to qualify for the prestige class. Am I wrong, or is the Beta wrong?"Designer Notes: Prestige Skills
With the changes to the skill system, the requirements
to enter various prestige classes must change as well.
Whenever a prestige class calls for a number of skill ranks,
you can qualify for the prestige class if you meet that number
of ranks –3 if you also have the skill as a class skill. If you do
not have the skill as a class skill, you must possess double
that number of ranks. For example, a 3.5 prestige class might
require eight ranks in Move Silently. In the Pathfinder RPG, it
instead requires five ranks of the Stealth skill if Stealth is one
of your class skills and ten ranks if it is not."Huh? How does that math compute.
The math is fine. You are just doubling the wrong number.
So, a 3.5 class needs 8 ranks in Move Silenty. This would now be 5 ranks in Stealth in the Pathfinder RPG. Now, you double the Pathfinder RPG number not the original. So, 5 ranks x 2 = 10.
3.5 Ranks - 3 = Class Skill ranks needed in Pathfinder RPG
(3.5 Ranks - 3) x 2 = Non class skill ranks needed in Pathfinder RPG
Also, was skill points x 4 at 1st broken, that it needed to be changed?
My players would be seriously non-plussed if I told them they'd lose 16-32 skill points.Why was this done?
Not so much broken as made "too much" for 1st level.
The x4 at 1st level primarily contributed to maxing skills at 4 ranks.
Pathfinder is changing the max ranks to equal HD, meaning you can only have 1 rank in any skill at 1st level. However all class skills get a +3 bonus when you have ranks in them, which for a 1st level Pathfinder RPG character equates to the same overall bonus in class skills. So your players aren't seriously "losing" skill points, some are just changing into a kind of "auto-" bonus.
3.5 Wizard, 1st level, Int 18
Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks + 4 Int mod = +8 modifier
Pathfinder Wizard, 1st level, Int 18
Knowledge (arcana) 1 rank, +3 class skill bonus, +4 Int mod = +8 modifier.
Also, with the skill consolidation, the x4 modifier needed to be removed otherwise you're likely to have characters with 1 rank in most, if not all, skills.
As for the PrC skill requirements, the only reason I can think of is because in the PRPG your non-class skills aren't limited to HD+3/2 ranks, which in 3.5 is a skill point cost equal to twice that skill's total ranks if cross-class. The +3 class bonus for skills is also factored into the math, bringing the needed ranks down by 3.
For example, if a 3.5 PrC requires 8 ranks in Move Silently, then a character with the skill as a class skill can be assumed to be able to take the PrC at 5th level (5th level= max class skill ranks of 8), while a character with it as cross-class would need to be at least 10th level (10th level= max cross-class skill ranks of 8) to take it.
Under Pathfinder, because max skill ranks is equal to HD, not HD+3, you need to drop the skill rank requirement by 3, in this case going down to 5. That becomes the new number of ranks required by the skill (or whatever other skill it may have been folded into).
You then consider how many points would be spent under 3.5 to get those ranks (-3 of course), which totals out to 5 points for a class skill, and 10 points for a cross-class skill.
So the numbers were computed to keep the minimum level you can enter into the Prestige Class the same under Pathfinder as they are under 3.5. For a PrC with Move Silently 8 ranks as a prerequisite, you need to be 5th level (if Move Silently is a class skill) or 10th level (if it is not) to take levels in the PrC. Under the PRPG rules, you still need to be 5th level (if Stealth is a class skill) or 10th level (if it is not) to take levels in the PrC.
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The limit for cross class skills in 3.5 is 2 ranks at 1st + .5 ranks every level after that.
If you need 8 ranks in a skill to qualify for a prestige class:
In 3.5 you need to spend 8 skill points and be at least 5th level if it is a class skill, and 16 skill points and be at least 13th level if it is a cross class skill.
In PFRPG Beta you need to spend 5 skill points and be at least 5th level if it is a class skill, and 10 skill points and be at least 10th level if it is a cross class skill.
That 3 level difference is very significant.
As for the mathematical differences between overall:
As noted, you get a +3 "class skill bonus" if you have a rank in a class skill. that means the same modifier as in 3.5.
It also does away with all the half ranks for cross class skills. Long term this means you "lose" a possible +1 with the skill at 1st level, are equal at 2nd and 3rd levels, and gain a constant +1/2 (rounded up) every level after that compared to 3.5.
The big place you lose is in versatility at 1st level, particularly for bards, rogues, and wizards. You can no longer take ranks in 20 or more different skills, but must instead "take max ranks" in whichever skills that you choose.
This is compensated for after 1st level by you still getting that +3 "class skill bonus" any time you put a rank into a class skill, effectively giving you 3 free skill points each time you do so. As a sort of comparison, a 3.5 rogue with a 10 Int gets 32 skill points at 1st level and 8 every level after that. In PFRPG you get 8 and 8, but have 54 "free" skill points waiting in 18 skills, plus 3 more for every type of craft, profession, or perform you take. It will take you until 3rd level to put a rank into each of those 18 skills, at which point you will have the effect of having spent 72 skill points with 6 left over compared to the 48 you would have in 3.5.
Overall I would say that is a fairly hefty compensation for a loss of versatility at 1st level.
Huh? How does that math compute.
I was confused about the PrC skill requirements at first, but as others have pointed out, I think this was done to keep the minimum level the same in Pathfinder RPG as in 3.5, considering the next point...
Also, was skill points x 4 at 1st broken, that it needed to be changed?
My players would be seriously non-plussed if I told them they'd lose 16-32 skill points.Why was this done?
I can't speak on behalf of the designers, but the new point system is certainly more streamlined, eliminating a lot of messy calculations, which I think was mostly the point. You get the same number of skill points every level, and all ranks cost 1 point. Simpler than the x4 multiplier at first level and double cost for cross-class skills. Cmbined with the consolidation of skills, this makes cross-class skills a lot cheaper and more feasible.
Also, with the class-skill bonus, you don't really "lose" skill points. Your characters will actually get more bonuses: having one rank in a class skill automatically grants +3 bonus to that skill, which you will get more often than the extra points you got at 1st level in 3.5. As I've converted characters, I invariably end up with a few extra skill points to spread around, or you actually get a bit of a higher bonus in your class skills that were not maxed out in 3.5
Hope that helps.
If you're still getting your head around Pathfinder's skill system,
it's probably important to understand WHY they switched it to this way.
The previous x4 skill points at first level was based on what class you had a first level, meaning taking a high-skill class (Rogue, Ranger, etc) at 1st level was outrageously advantageous. The new system makes it immaterial what order you take your classes in.
Like you noticed, Pathfinder's system is designed to be equivalent to putting max Ranks (4) into your class skills at first level. Abandoning the "x4 @1st" system does mean that you lose the flexibility to have more, but weaker, skills... The thing is, having just +1 to a skill does not give you much confidence in being able to reliably succeed at it. Even +4 is only a beginner level of proficiency.
Pathfinder is actually increasing the over-all skill level, both from making it easy to get at least +4 in all class skills for only one skill point, as well as savings from skill consolidation. Human and Half-Elf bonus skills, as well as the new Favored Class bonus skills, also provide more skill points that can take advantage of the +3 class skill bonus.