Mutliclassing answer?....Hybrid characters?

[Dread]

I was reading through a thread where someone briefly mentioned gestalt characters...and as happens often with me, a brief flash of an idea popped up.

Now I havent worked out the details fully here...

but what if?

Rules were emplaced for running what would be referred to as a 'Hybrid character'

Rule 1: Take 2 character classes and only 2 classes...

Rule 2: Your character cannot hybrid into any other class.

Rule 3: One must be a Favored Class.

Rule 4: Take all properties of both classes...ie Good Saves = 1. Good BAB = 2. Average BAB = 1. Martial Weapons = 1. Light Armor = 1, Medium Armor = 2, Heavy Armor = 3. Shields = 1. Spells = 1. Each Class Ability = 1. Skills 8/level = 3, 6/level = 2, 4/level = 1....add up what the total is for both classes...divide in half and repick what your hybrid has.

Written this way it isnt too elegant, and may sound difficult...but Im sure more streamlined rules could be written that made it easy to see and do.

This would do away with the need to 'create a bunch of odd classes' because you could create all the other classes out these hybrids.

Want a Samurai? Hybrid the Fighter and Monk. Want a Favored Soul? Hybrid a Sorceror and Cleric. Want a Spellthief? Hybrid a Rogue and Sorceror. Want a Scout? Hybrid a Rogue and Ranger.

Get my drift?

What are your thoughts?

[Jason Beardsley]

I like the concept, but the rules would have to be made so that it would look like a viable option for my players. If it ends up being too confusing, they won't go for it.

All in all though, I think you may be on to something. I like the idea of using gestalt core to simulate non-core classes (ie. your samurai, fighter/monk, example). If there was a way to play gestalt characters without the blatant power increase, a way to keep a 1st level fighter/wizard at the same 'power level' (cr?) as a 1st level fighter or 1st level wizard, i'd be all for it.

[JLegion]

I have been using a similar method for a number of years, and it works for our group.

We have 2 classes max, take the better of the BAB and ST as you compare the different levels and pay for XP in each class individually. If you want to be a better fighter take that class, if you want more spells progress as a wizard. The character will lag from a single class character, but not by much at low levels. When it comes to feats, I would limit it to one class based on the beta rules, but give out starting abilities.

If you keep a limit to two classes, it works well, but we don't have prestige classes.

While some think its complex, its more like 1e/2e multiclassing than current rules. I think the balancing act is to gain levels, but not waste XPs by taking lower levels of any class at the higher level cost. The biggest issue people have is the skill points. If you allow them all the points gained by getting a second class, then they have too many. If you divide it in 2, then they typically have too few to do either class right. I am currently trying using all of one class (the higher of the two when equal levels), and half of the other class. The half gets spent on class relevant skills, and the character typically lags in spell power, BAB and saves. Are they more powerful than a single level fighter or wizard? Yes, but they are not the gestalt character.

[Dread]

I'm looking for a non-gestalt version though...Gestalt basicly takes the best of both classes...I want to allow the character to 'build' the class out of the features of both not use all of both. Thats why its more a Hybrid of both. Choosing what things were important for his character design.

Example:

Wiz has Good Will Save = 1. (poor saves /no armor/limited weapons/d6 hit die/poor BAB/skills progession 2= 0) spells: 1. Arcane Bond = 1. Scribe Scroll: 1 School: 1...Wizard = 5 points

Rogue has Good reflex = 1 (poor saves/limited weapons= 0). Average BAB= 1. d8 hit die = 1. Sneak Attack = 1, Trapfinding= 1, Skill progession of 8 = 1. Light Armor = 1 Rogue = 7 points

Average is 6 points...

so I can make a Rogue/Wizard Hybrid picking and choosing between the two classes taking what i want of either to fill 6 slots...

so a Spellthief might be : Spells (1), Skills progession of 8 (1), d6 hit die (0), Poor Fo (0), Good Will : (1), Good Reflex (1), Poor BAB (0), Trapfinding (1), Limited Weapons (0), No Armor (0), Sneak Attack (1)

Taking no School, No scribe Scroll, no arcane bond, and no d8 hit die...

as an example of my idea...

[Jason Beardsley]

Dread wrote:

I'm looking for a non-gestalt version though...Gestalt basicly takes the best of both classes...I want to allow the character to 'build' the class out of the features of both not use all of both. Thats why its more a Hybrid of both. Choosing what things were important for his character design.

Example:

Wiz has Good Will Save = 1. (poor saves /no armor/limited weapons/d6 hit die/poor BAB/skills progession 2= 0) spells: 1. Arcane Bond = 1. Scribe Scroll: 1 School: 1...Wizard = 5 points

Rogue has Good reflex = 1 (poor saves/limited weapons= 0). Average BAB= 1. d8 hit die = 1. Sneak Attack = 1, Trapfinding= 1, Skill progession of 8 = 1. Light Armor = 1 Rogue = 7 points

Average is 6 points...

so I can make a Rogue/Wizard Hybrid picking and choosing between the two classes taking what i want of either to fill 6 slots...

so a Spellthief might be : Spells (1), Skills progession of 8 (1), d6 hit die (0), Poor Fo (0), Good Will : (1), Good Reflex (1), Poor BAB (0), Trapfinding (1), Limited Weapons (0), No Armor (0), Sneak Attack (1)

Taking no School, No scribe Scroll, no arcane bond, and no d8 hit die...

as an example of my idea...

This reminds me of something i saw.. cant remember the name.. that attemps to make everything in 3.5 a point buy system of some sort.. so, essentially, you create whatever character you can think of..

Anyone know what it is i'm thinking of? i cant seem to remember..

[Kirth Gersen]

Dread wrote:

Wiz has Good Will Save = 1. spells: 1.

Rogue has Good reflex = 1 (poor saves/limited weapons= 0). Trapfinding= 1

Any rating system is more than a bit askew if it values trapfinding the same as a 1st level spell + SLA + at-will 0-level spells.

The only way to sanely implement what you propose is a classless system, with a-la-carte XP-buy for the various class features -- which would be REALLY cool (I'd play that game over 3e any day), but it wouldn't really be D&D anymore. I'm working on such a system right now, but scaling the values, mathematically, is far more difficult than I had envisioned.

[Steven Hume]

Yea its a free PDF that breaks down all class and races into points like a gurps game, i will have to hunt for link will post it when i find it but maybe doing a search Eclipse: The Codex Persona and should find it

[Dread]

Thats true enough, Its an idea, and it may be better to put in scaleable spell casting...Like : 1 point = limited progression (Paladin/Ranger), 2 Point: Lesser Progression (Bard}, 3 Point: Unlimited Progression.

and I acually dont want to make it a point buy in...

Skills and Powers had that sstem for 2e (which I did like very much by the way)

However, a multi-classing where you could pick and choose what you got, but had to sacrifice as well... may be a way to fix class dipping.

[Sleepy]

Steven Hume wrote:

Yea its a free PDF that breaks down all class and races into points like a gurps game, i will have to hunt for link will post it when i find it but maybe doing a search Eclipse: The Codex Persona and should find it

I remember finding something for d20 classes as well. It was a while ago, but this link still seems to be working:

Class Construction Engine

and then there is a wiki on the same subject:

Class Construction System

[Jason Beardsley]

Sleepy wrote:

and then there is a wiki on the same subject:

Class Construction System

Must have copied it wrong, I fixed it up:

Class Construction System

And thank you for that resource!

[Sleepy]

Jason Beardsley wrote:

Sleepy wrote:

and then there is a wiki on the same subject:

Class Construction System

Must have copied it wrong, I fixed it up:

Class Construction System

And thank you for that resource!

You're very welcome ... and yes, indeed, I did copy the link wrong. It's fixed in this post, but I can't seem to go back and edit my previous one. Oh well. Enjoy!

[Duniagdra DaaMyour]

Great little construction system. Thanks for the reference.

[Kaisoku]

Neat!

I had stopped using point buy systems long before CCE and this CCS stuff came out... but I had found Hamilton's ClassCalc site long ago, which is apparently partly the base of the CCS.

I might have to check it out. I wonder if anyone made anything like the RaceCalc for 3.5e as well.

[Jeff Wilder]

I had been having thoughts similar to the OP's.

You can see what I came up with HERE.

-- Jeff

[SneaksyDragon]

d20 BESM also has a point breakdown of all the standard D&D classes, PLUS Superpowers^^

[Dallimmar]

Jason Beardsley wrote:

Dread wrote:

I'm looking for a non-gestalt version though...Gestalt basicly takes the best of both classes...I want to allow the character to 'build' the class out of the features of both not use all of both. Thats why its more a Hybrid of both. Choosing what things were important for his character design.

Example:

Wiz has Good Will Save = 1. (poor saves /no armor/limited weapons/d6 hit die/poor BAB/skills progession 2= 0) spells: 1. Arcane Bond = 1. Scribe Scroll: 1 School: 1...Wizard = 5 points

Rogue has Good reflex = 1 (poor saves/limited weapons= 0). Average BAB= 1. d8 hit die = 1. Sneak Attack = 1, Trapfinding= 1, Skill progession of 8 = 1. Light Armor = 1 Rogue = 7 points

Average is 6 points...

so I can make a Rogue/Wizard Hybrid picking and choosing between the two classes taking what i want of either to fill 6 slots...

so a Spellthief might be : Spells (1), Skills progession of 8 (1), d6 hit die (0), Poor Fo (0), Good Will : (1), Good Reflex (1), Poor BAB (0), Trapfinding (1), Limited Weapons (0), No Armor (0), Sneak Attack (1)

Taking no School, No scribe Scroll, no arcane bond, and no d8 hit die...

as an example of my idea...

This reminds me of something i saw.. cant remember the name.. that attemps to make everything in 3.5 a point buy system of some sort.. so, essentially, you create whatever character you can think of..

Anyone know what it is i'm thinking of? i cant seem to remember..

I think you are talking about ShadowRun