I dunno Dennis. I prefer a pdf copy for a lot of reasons, really, even on the crapper.
I agree and disagree.
At home, I don't mind hauling the laptop into the bathroom with me and having access to everything I ever wanted via pdfs. But, at work, or on the road, or on a plane, having my laptop with me in the crapper is just not really all that easy.
Overall, I like the idea of pdfs. It suits my DMing style as I use the computer a lot to help prepare my game sessions. I like being able to cut and paste and retain my original document, have access to those documents via the web, and be able to transport them easily (via flash drive).
I prefer a pdf copy for a lot of reasons, really, even on the crapper.Deja vu ;)
Ahem. That's enough about that.
Carry on!
This is a valid point. For those who were never interested in the applications, I can see how the magazine-only subscription at a lower cost could be good news.For those of us interested in the full suite of tools, it's not so good.
I hear your concerns buddy, but I'm just not sure why you think pricing the magazines + Compendium + bonus tools (whatever they end up being) at $5 a month means the rest of the stuff won't be another $5?
What makes you think this means the final pricepoint on the whole thing will be higher than $10 a month (for a yearly sub)?
To answer your question, yes, I am looking forward to the whole "D&D Insider" package. In fact, I viewed the magazines as "additional content" that got included in the final price and the true premium content was the compendium, visualizer, builder, and vtabletop.
I guess I see a yearly subscription for $5 for what I viewed as "bonus"
content that was free and has been anyways for a while as a bit much and if people go with this price point, that could drive up the price for the other content.
With that said, for those people who only want the magazines anyways, I can see their point of view and see this as a boon for them.
For me though, since D&D Insider was announced, what really grabbed me and had me sold on a subscription was the suite of applications to facilitate online play, character generation, rules compendium with every piece of official content released, and a visualizer as a tool for my players.
If they don't jack up the price over $10 a month for all that content in addition to the magazines, I guess I am steaming for no reason.
But, a $5 pricepoint that doesn't include pretty much all of the big-money products - digital development, updates, patches, new content, server maintainence, etc... - leads me to believe that when they finally get all of that content out, they will jack up the price.
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Wait...is this just for Dungeon/dragon? Or will this include all of the promised DDI features? If its just the mags, they still don't get it. if its the whole enchilada, that is a good value for the money, imo.
I don't think this is a huge cost for Dungeon & Dragon Magazine.. afterall when it was with Paizo it was costing aprox. this much per magazine. Course I did get a print version, but I didn't get a pdf copy which I prefer because I use my laptop for running games.
I would hope people would understand that having people write adventures, create the layout, design, artwork, and pdfs costs money. Now there was quite a bit that Wizards offered on their site for free in the past.. however they basically ate the cost of that.
Just my point of view
(Let the flaming begin)
Trent
I would hope people would understand that having people write adventures, create the layout, design, artwork, and pdfs costs money. Now there was quite a bit that Wizards offered on their site for free in the past.. however they basically ate the cost of that.
You know, there's a lot of magazines out there that have websites that cost the consumer $0. I can buy a Men's Health magazine and then go to their website and check out articles as well.
So were they eating the cost, or were they fostering their community of customers into continued play - and purchase of future product?
I'm all for the pricing of a subscription based plan that includes high-quality online apps, tools, and these adventures.
Articles and features should continue to be free.
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Wait...is this just for Dungeon/dragon? Or will this include all of the promised DDI features? If its just the mags, they still don't get it. if its the whole enchilada, that is a good value for the money, imo.I don't think this is a huge cost for Dungeon & Dragon Magazine.. afterall when it was with Paizo it was costing aprox. this much per magazine. Course I did get a print version, but I didn't get a pdf copy which I prefer because I use my laptop for running games.
I would hope people would understand that having people write adventures, create the layout, design, artwork, and pdfs costs money. Now there was quite a bit that Wizards offered on their site for free in the past.. however they basically ate the cost of that.
Just my point of view
(Let the flaming begin)
Trent
FLAME FLAME FLAME. burn.
OK, now that is out of my system, I'd say its a matter of perceived value. There is a reason that E-book sales are nowhere near physical books. The majority of people still prefer a physical book. However, many would likely buy that E-book if the price was more reasonable. Amazon gets it, and look how well the kindle has sold (over 250,000 sold since launch). Wizards does not have a physical cost with each online mag (well, server & bandwith could count I guess). Therefore, if they lowered their price and sold more units, they could break even. This would not work with a print mag, as if you go too low you are not meeting your printing costs. Once people were hooked and comfortable with the DDI, you institute OPERATION: Price Creep and get back to your initial planned price.
Once people were hooked and comfortable with the DDI, you institute OPERATION: Price Creep and get back to your initial planned price.
Or, just keep the articles, features and a few adventures (sell the Adventure Path on a per purchase basis) for free as community tools. And then when you have something worth a monthly or yearly subscription, such as online applications and tools, THEN charge a reasonable fee for it.
Honestly, I don't think WotC all of a sudden "started listening to their customers" and decided to offer this price package... If that were the case, they would realize that their customers love all this free content right now and it's keeping them around as possible subscribers to D&D Insider.
I think what happened was, they realized these online apps are FAR OFF from being released to where they can charge, and they need SOME kind of income to show in their quarterly report for the D&D Insider online initiative.
How embarrassing would it be a year after projected release date to show your boss you have made a total of $0 on this alleged huge online initiative for the premier rpg of the industry?
Unless they broaden their applications to work on Mac OS X, I won't be interested.
Unless they broaden their applications to work on Mac OS X, I won't be interested.
I highly doubt that will happen. They don't even have Magic Online running for Macs. You'll probably need to download Boot Camp and install Windows to run any D&D Insider apps.
Unless they broaden their applications to work on Mac OS X, I won't be interested.I highly doubt that will happen. They don't even have Magic Online running for Macs. You'll probably need to download Boot Camp and install Windows to run any D&D Insider apps.
tsk- hardly seems worth the effort.
Considering it's a web-based suite of applications, it's frankly ridiculous that it's so hamstrung.Well, at least they're being consistent.
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Looks like Wizards has changed the pricing plans for Dungeon and Dragons Insider.
Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)
I know a lot of you disagree... But I think this should be the value of the Full DDI Experience, with all the apps completed.. what they said they were charging before was way too much. DDI does not have the same value as a MMO *there old pricing scheme*
If this price is going to change when they add the other apps I will be very disappointed because they would be charging way to much...
Does anyone seriously think that DDI is the same value as a MMO?..
Looks like Wizards has changed the pricing plans for Dungeon and Dragons Insider.
Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)I know a lot of you disagree... But I think this should be the value of the Full DDI Experience, with all the apps completed.. what they said they were charging before was way too much. DDI does not have the same value as a MMO *there old pricing scheme*
If this price is going to change when they add the other apps I will be very disappointed because they would be charging way to much...
Does anyone seriously think that DDI is the same value as a MMO?..
I agree with you, but I would be willing to pay up to $10 for the entire suite of applications. I am not willing to pay half that for not nearly half the content.
I know a lot of you disagree... But I think this should be the value of the Full DDI Experience, with all the apps completed.. what they said they were charging before was way too much. DDI does not have the same value as a MMO *there old pricing scheme*If this price is going to change when they add the other apps I will be very disappointed because they would be charging way to much...
Does anyone seriously think that DDI is the same value as a MMO?..
Hmm, tough to say. When I played MMOs, I always subscribed monthly. You never really knew when you'd fall out of the mood to play anymore, and who wanted to be stuck with half a year or more of a game you didn't want to play? So I paid $15 a month, and cancelled some months only to come back the month after. It was reasonably worth it most of the time.
Compare that to the DDI. It's pretty fair to say that I always am happy to play DnD. I've only stopped playing when I couldn't find a group, and I started close to 15 years ago. I feel subbing for a year pretty safe, and wouldn't worry I'd lose my desire to play and end up with wasted months of subscription. So I'd sign up for a year, and pay the $10 they were floating before. For that price I'd get Dragon and Dungeon, which I subbed to before for a slightly lower price, as well as a list of online tools of varying worth.
Character Visualizer? Eh, I don't really need it, which is funny 'cause I'm sure it is one of the more intensive pieces of work. The Builder though could be cool, and I already appreciate the Compendium. I love Dragon and Dungeon and just wish they'd get posted faster (although then I'd complain they don't get posted often enough :P)
But yeah, I'd say all that is worth it for $10 a month. $15, I dunno. If that was my only source of DnD, absolutely, no questions asked. If my face to face games were still going, I'm not so sure.
So is that a yes maybe? It's technically the same price as a year sub to a MMO ... I just never took advantage of those yearly sub prices.
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You know, there's a lot of magazines out there that have websites that cost the consumer $0. I can buy a Men's Health magazine and then go to their website and check out articles as well.
But not every article
So were they eating the cost, or were they fostering their community of customers into continued play - and purchase of future product?
Yes they were eating the cost.. and fosterering their community.
Keep in mind that most online articles are just text and banner ads. If they are pdfs it isn't much more than a printed version of what you saw in text on the website. With the pdfs that WotC is offering you have a lot more cost wrapped up in it. Ask James, Erik or Lisa how much it costs to create a magazine. The only thing that isn't included in the price of an online magazine is distribution and printing. Which is a HUGE cost.. but not the whole cost. Also keep in mind that bandwidth and server space isn't free either.
Would I love it if WotC offered this stuff for free.. hell yes I'd love that.
However I don't think a $7 per month is asking all that much for something that will be leaked on P2P networks for free the second it gets put online ;)
Personally right now I'd like to see the applications.. that means a whole lot more to me than whether I'm getting charged for content.
Trent
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Hmm, tough to say. When I played MMOs, I always subscribed monthly. You never really knew when you'd fall out of the mood to play anymore, and who wanted to be stuck with half a year or more of a game you didn't want to play? So I paid $15 a month, and cancelled some months only to come back the month after. It was reasonably worth it most of the time.
Compare that to the DDI. It's pretty fair to say that I always am happy to play DnD. I've only stopped playing when I couldn't find a group, and I started close to 15 years ago. I feel subbing for a year pretty safe, and wouldn't worry I'd lose my desire to play and end up with wasted months of subscription. So I'd sign up for a year, and pay the $10 they were floating before. For that price I'd get Dragon and Dungeon, which I subbed to before for a slightly lower price, as well as a list of online tools of varying worth.
Character Visualizer? Eh, I don't really need it, which is funny 'cause I'm sure it is one of the more intensive pieces of work. The Builder though could be cool, and I already appreciate the Compendium. I love Dragon and Dungeon and just wish they'd get posted faster (although then I'd complain they don't get posted often enough :P)
But yeah, I'd say all that is worth it for $10 a month. $15, I dunno. If that was my only source of DnD, absolutely, no questions asked. If my face to face games were still going, I'm not so sure.
So is that a yes maybe? It's technically the same price as a year sub to a MMO ... I just never took advantage of...
To me, personally the product is not worth $10 a month for a year subscription. And I would not get it if they went back to that price..
The price scheme they are working on was based on what MMOs charge, MMOs to build cost about as much as a small Hollywood film, some even more. I doubt their DDI is going to cost that much, so that is how I base on what I would pay for it.
But not every article
Yes. And you don't get the content from the PHB, DMG, or MM or any other print book in the online format from WotC either.
Yes they were eating the cost.. and fosterering their community.
Now they just want to make money - fostering a community has taken a backseat to that agenda.
I'm all for WotC making money. If they make money, they make more D&D books I get to spend my hard-earned cash on and peruse over for hours on end. But, charging for content that has been traditionally free from a company as an "enhancement" to the print product we are already shelling out A LOT of money on - that's not cool.
Like I said though, this is a good option for people who ONLY want the online magazines and no other tools IF WotC HAS to charge for it to survive...
Keep in mind that most online articles are just text and banner ads. If they are pdfs it isn't much more than a printed version of what you saw in text on the website. With the pdfs that WotC is offering you have a lot more cost wrapped up in it. Ask James, Erik or Lisa how much it costs to create a magazine. The only thing that isn't included in the price of an online magazine is distribution and printing. Which is a HUGE cost.. but not the whole cost. Also keep in mind that bandwidth and server space isn't free either.
You said it yourself. Distributing pdf files doesn't cost NEARLY as much as printing magazines and distributing them.
However I don't think a $7 per month is asking all that much for something that will be leaked on P2P networks for free the second it gets put online ;)
Well, if you are banking on getting the content for free, you don't really care much for cost anyways... So the point is moot for you.
Personally right now I'd like to see the applications.. that means a whole lot more to me than whether I'm getting charged for content.
Trent
Well, this is my whole point. Get us these applications that you've been hyping for the past year or so. Then charge us.
My only hope is they charge $10 for the entire suite of applications, including the magazines, once they come out. If not, I don't think I'll pay more than that.
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Now they just want to make money - fostering a community has taken a backseat to that agenda.
I agree wholeheartedly with you on this point.. this is why I spend so much time on Paizo's site rather than WotC. It isn't solely because of the content.. it's because of the community. Besides all my friends are here.
Like I said though, this is a good option for people who ONLY want the online magazines and no other tools IF WotC HAS to charge for it to survive...
::chuckles:: Well WotC doesn't have to charge for it to survive.. everyone knows that ;)
Coming from the publishing/printing industry has put me in an interesting perspective on WotC's decision to move the magazines online.
It will be interesting to see.. all in all I don't care for WotC's shift.
Do I think they deserve to get paid for their work.. yes, cause they had to pay someone else to create it. Lots of people like to think of WotC as this huge corporate entity but don't think about the employees, freelancer writers & artists that depend upon the "Entity" for money to take care of their families.
What really concerns me is when they create the online tools and then charge us to use them. With the traditional MMORPG you are paying for server bandwidth, content creation, new items, shiny graphics, etc. With the online game table you won't be paying for content creation but rather just bandwidth. So imho it should be a lot cheaper than your WoW subscription. So they have to add the Dungeon Mag and Dragon Mag content to the subscription cause otherwise gamers feel they are getting ripped off.
Personally I would rather they charge me $40 for the software (i.e. like Fantasy Grounds, Hero Lab, etc) and then I can use it free every month.
More fuel for the fire ;)
Trent
I dunno Dennis. I prefer a pdf copy for a lot of reasons, really, even on the crapper.
Principally, the pdf isn't going to get washed away the next time my house is destroyed by a hurricane. I can't take all my magazines
Next time? That must have sucked.
Personally I'm a big fan of the Paizo dual sub where you get both. While I do enjoy and use PDF content. I am not willing to pay as much for it. I Almost always print my d&d materials in particular the adventures. I think non printed material should be discounted significantly.
The other thing for me is I wouldn't use most of the dungeon magazine material and would never subscribe to it by itself.
On the other hand it's an offering at a better price point which is great for people who don't want or can't use the apps (osx and Linux users come to mind)
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I'm not sure about other people but I think I paid like $75 a year.
I don't think I would pay $60/ year for 2 digital magazine subscriptions though. How much did Dragon and Dungeon cost previously? I thought it was less than $60 for the two for a physical copy shipped to your house.
Those concerns aside... overall this is good news.
yes, it was more like $75 a year.
But I value the hard copy. I like to own "things", especially books. Without the hard copy, a drop from $75 to $60 is 20% discount. I personally feel that eliminating the costs any publisher pays for publishing a hard copy should be passed on to the consumer. 20% discount is simply not sufficient.
Next time? That must have sucked.
Sigh. More than you (probably) know. I still get bummed thinking about some of the stuff I lost, so I mostly try to avoid thinking about it. :)
Anyhoo, I do understand the allure of actually physically owning the product. But at the end of the day my current living space is very small and I can barely fit what I already own in there, much less the 4E books I plan on buying this year and next. If I were still getting two monthly magazines on top of that I'd probably have to start building furiture out of them (and, honestly, I already AM building furniture out of books that are overflowing from my bookshelves so ...)
It isn't everyone's situation, but for me at least, pdfs work pretty dang well, 'cause I have WAY more digital room than physical currently.
Cheers! :)
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yes, it was more like $75 a year.
But I value the hard copy. I like to own "things", especially books. Without the hard copy, a drop from $75 to $60 is 20% discount. I personally feel that eliminating the costs any publisher pays for publishing a hard copy should be passed on to the consumer. 20% discount is simply not sufficient.
Agreed on the price of the old mags and your critique of the current price. Just to be abundantly clear about why some of us object to the pricing, you need to look at the types of costs that go into magazines. There are really just 2 types:
1- Fixed costs. This is a per issue cost for the physical product. While volume can lower these costs (economies of scale), they cannot be eliminated. They include such costs as the physical printing and shipping costs. These costs scale with the circulation. In other words, for every added issue sold, you add these costs again (on a per issue basis). The online mags completely eliminate these costs.
2- One time costs. These expenses are paid just once in the pub process. they include payment to authors, licensing fees, etc... For the online mags you can include things like IT staff, software development, and IT infrastructure. These costs do not scale. In other words, these costs remain relatively constant regardless of circulation totals.
Now, since WotC has largely moved their costs into the 2nd category, their expenses are largely divorced from their circulation numbers. Without having access to their accounting materials, it appear to me a relatively solid guess that the price point they are currently setting is not what they Need to use for a profit, but rather the highest they believe the market can bear.
And that is the point I made earlier in this thread. Publishers of online content have continually (willfully?) misread the market dynamic for online publications, often substantially over pricing their products. this has the unintended consequence of lowering their overall sales, and has played a large part in the failure of the Ebook economy. For example, if i wanted the new George RR Martin book, why would I pay $25 for the Ebook when I could pay $30 and have a physical copy? Now there are many folks who wont buy the book at all at that price and use the library. A sale point of say half the print cost, would substantially raise sales and, thus profits.
An example of a similar principle is the Baen online library. many older Ebooks are given away for free. the net result has been increased sales for the current releases by those authors. What can Wizards learn from this? DDI @ 10/month may only have 1/4 of the subscribers the service would at $5/month. That is lost sales, and lost profit. Of course, without access to their financial numbers, much of this is speculation, so YMMV. But it is speculation based off what the bulk of E-book publishers are facing.
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Maybe this has been covered but I didn't see it, but when does the actual "charge" for the free content begin?
If I have the cash I might go with a subscrip, but as it right now I'm paying dollars on a MMO, in which I'm having a good time playing, vs the DDI stuff in which I'd be reading. I currently don't have a sit-down D&D group, let alone a 4e D&D group. I do have a couple of 3.5 & 3.P play by post games going.
I do like what I've read with Dungeon & Dragon, but overall it hasn't compared to the dead tree versions that I fell in love with some 25+ years ago.
EDIT--Anther question, regarding the character visualizer, but will this be used say as your "mini" in the tabletop?
thanks
RM
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Maybe this has been covered but I didn't see it, but when does the actual "charge" for the free content begin?
If I have the cash I might go with a subscrip, but as it right now I'm paying dollars on a MMO, in which I'm having a good time playing, vs the DDI stuff in which I'd be reading. I currently don't have a sit-down D&D group, let alone a 4e D&D group. I do have a couple of 3.5 & 3.P play by post games going.
I do like what I've read with Dungeon & Dragon, but overall it hasn't compared to the dead tree versions that I fell in love with some 25+ years ago.
EDIT--Anther question, regarding the character visualizer, but will this be used say as your "mini" in the tabletop?
thanks
RM
Sometime Early October... No exact date yet..
THe Character Visualizer will be linked to the Tabletop, no specific details as of yet.
Here's my deal, I like 4th (and 3.x and PFRPG etc) and have liked so far what I have seen of the DDI mags, but my problem is formatting. Sure they look great on my spiffy monitor, but when printing them they look hideous and don't work for a binder for me. I think I'd only pay if they gave us a printer friendly option for articles and magazines, just so we can choose if we want to print them. But thats just me.
