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A loke of what's coming
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide: A look at the Church of Shar, and her servants the Kir-Lanan
also has a look at the Pyramid of Shadows, Forgotten Realms Player Guide
One Final Sacrifice Warlock (Dark) Attack 29
You siphon life force from your allies to add pain and suffering to the attack you make against your common foe.DailyArcane, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 20
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. ReflexHit: 4d8 + Charisma modifier damage.Miss: Half damage.Effect: Each ally within 5 squares of you takes 10 damage. For each ally damaged, the target takes 1d8 damage.Dark Pact: For each ally damaged, the target instead takes 1d12 damage.
and the Adventurer's Vault
Weapon Prof. Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Execution axe +2 d12 — 30 gp 14 lb. Axe Brutal 2, high crit
Wow! Awesome work Laz, thanks a ton for finding that.
New Pact, new Weapons (and weapon properties!) plus old magic items that have been with us for years. An awesome preview indeed!
Man, I'm psyched! :)
Weapon Prof. Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Execution axe +2 d12 — 30 gp 14 lb. Axe Brutal 2, high crit
Execution Axe: This broad-bladed axe is heavily weighted for greater hewing power.
Brutal: A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.
For example, the execution axe has a property of brutal 2. If a fighter wielding this weapon hits with steel serpent strike (a 2[W] power), the player rolls 2d12 for the weapon damage, rerolling a die result of 1 or 2 until the die shows 3 or higher.
Yeah I thought that was pretty cool. I wonder what other properties they'll be throwing out there.
Also the implementation of the Bag of Tricks was interesting. A Minor action to command your critter to do something (ie, take a Standard, Move, or Minor itself) or else it effectively does nothing. Intriguing.
Cheers! :)
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Am I correct in assuming that the Brutal Score is for the overall Damage?
So for example if I roll 1d12 damage I roll until I get a result higher than 2
If I roll 4d12 damage I will always get at least 4 damage, so Brutal is of no use?
From what I understand, with Brutal 2, you reroll all die lower than 3. So if rolled 1,2,2,3. You'd reroll the 1's and 2 until you got a 3 or better. so minium damage the brutal weapon is 12 damage.
*Edit; from the article:
"For example, the execution axe has a property of brutal 2. If a fighter wielding this weapon hits with steel serpent strike (a 2[W] power), the player rolls 2d12 for the weapon damage, rerolling a die result of 1 or 2 until the die shows 3 or higher."
Also the implementation of the Bag of Tricks was interesting. A Minor action to command your critter to do something (ie, take a Standard, Move, or Minor itself) or else it effectively does nothing. Intriguing.
Cheers! :)
I suspect this is going to be the standard way to control summoned creatures or animal companions. They've had several powers that summon pets which do things when you spend a minor action.
Since you're limited to no more then three minor actions per turn (or four if you use an action point), this provides a very nice limiting effect to how many summoned creatures a person can use at any one time.
Just as a quick rules question:
Am I right in assuming that the Summoned Critter that is pulled from a Bag of Tricks has Reach 0, since it is a Tiny creature?
Even with its relatively high AC, the critter is going to get pasted with an Opportunity Attack way too often to make it an effective combatant (or even distraction).
O
Just as a quick rules question:
Am I right in assuming that the Summoned Critter that is pulled from a Bag of Tricks has Reach 0, since it is a Tiny creature?
Even with its relatively high AC, the critter is going to get pasted with an Opportunity Attack way too often to make it an effective combatant (or even distraction).
O
Good question! I'm not sure that rule made it into 4E. Anyone with a MM handy?
Oh, yeah ... look it up.
A Tiny creature has 0 reach; it cannot attack outside its own space.
combined with ...
If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you [like into your square in order to reach you], you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.
... doesn't look good for our summoned critters.
O
Oh, yeah ... look it up.
A Tiny creature has 0 reach; it cannot attack outside its own space.combined with ...
If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you [like into your square in order to reach you], you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.... doesn't look good for our summoned critters.
O
Watch out summoned critters! Heh, yeah that does bode poorly for them. Perhaps move them in when the creature can't make OAs anymore. Or hope you roll the Weasel. He's sneaky. ;)
Unfortunately, since you can make multiple OAs now (only limited to one per opponent's turn)* the only way to prevent the OA against your summoned critter is to provoke one yourself just before the critter moves in for the kill. That seems to run kind of counter to the purpose of summoning a beastie to fight for you.
O
*
You can take only one opportunity [attack] during another combatant's turn, but you can take any number during a round.
Unfortunately, since you can make multiple OAs now (only limited to one per opponent's turn)* the only way to prevent the OA against your summoned critter is to provoke one yourself just before the critter moves in for the kill. That seems to run kind of counter to the purpose of summoning a beastie to fight for you.
O
*
You can take only one opportunity [attack] during another combatant's turn, but you can take any number during a round.
Yes, I was meaning draw an OA to let your beastie get in. ;)
I don't know about defeating the purpose. Consider that placing the creature behind means they'll have to waste an attack to clear the square or take an OA for running through. Absorbing even one attack isn't too shoddy (and probably saved you about the same as the Healing Surge cost for summoning the critter). Other tiny creatures don't get off so easily against them either.
It's not the best item in the world, but really, we're talking about the Bag of Tricks. It's been with us for several editions now, and I'm pretty sure it's about useless in most of them. Items like these are all about crazy applications, and less about real combat utility. :)
What does everyone think of the "re-roll" mechanic of the Brutal property?
Do you think that'd be bogging down combat? Imagine a whole party wielding "brutal" weapons at high levels? Imagine the player who keeps rolling 1s and 2s on his rerolls...
Could it have been done in a more efficient way? How about a simple (+1 or +2) damage to reflect the weapon's brutal qualities? What about breaking larger dice down into multiple dice (can you do this with 4th Edition weapons?) by making that d12 a 3d4 weapon which makes it a minimum of 3 damage max of 12 damage weapon? How does that interact with 3[W] properties... 9d4 damage?
Any other ideas?
What does everyone think of the "re-roll" mechanic of the Brutal property?
Do you think that'd be bogging down combat? Imagine a whole party wielding "brutal" weapons at high levels? Imagine the player who keeps rolling 1s and 2s on his rerolls...
Could it have been done in a more efficient way? How about a simple (+1 or +2) damage to reflect the weapon's brutal qualities? What about breaking larger dice down into multiple dice (can you do this with 4th Edition weapons?) by making that d12 a 3d4 weapon which makes it a minimum of 3 damage max of 12 damage weapon? How does that interact with 3[W] properties... 9d4 damage?
Any other ideas?
I assume the axe is exotic, likely cutting down on how many will be using it in the future pretty drastically. Hopefully we don't see any brutal properties with numbers higher than 2 or so though. 3 is probably ok still, but Brutal 4+ is just crazy, both from balance and from the possibility of "roll ... reroll ... reroll ... reroll ..." for quite a length of time.
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What does everyone think of the "re-roll" mechanic of the Brutal property?
Do you think that'd be bogging down combat? Imagine a whole party wielding "brutal" weapons at high levels? Imagine the player who keeps rolling 1s and 2s on his rerolls...
Could it have been done in a more efficient way? How about a simple (+1 or +2) damage to reflect the weapon's brutal qualities? What about breaking larger dice down into multiple dice (can you do this with 4th Edition weapons?) by making that d12 a 3d4 weapon which makes it a minimum of 3 damage max of 12 damage weapon? How does that interact with 3[W] properties... 9d4 damage?
Any other ideas?
You could simply reduce it to "Brutal x. This weapon always does a minimum of x+1 damage. If the roll is lower than x, treat it as if the roll was x+1." Thus the Brutal 2 Axe mentioned would treat 1, 2, 3 as a 3. Simple, no rerolls to potentially slow things don if the player becomes a Jonah and it retains the effect of the original (although slightly less powerful as you can't get more than the minimum). Maybe make it the average damage for the weapon?
You could simply reduce it to "Brutal x. This weapon always does a minimum of x+1 damage. If the roll is lower than x, treat it as if the roll was x+1." Thus the Brutal 2 Axe mentioned would treat 1, 2, 3 as a 3. Simple, no rerolls to potentially slow things don if the player becomes a Jonah and it retains the effect of the original (although slightly less powerful as you can't get more than the minimum). Maybe make it the average damage for the weapon?
Clever thought Paul!
Clever thought Paul!
You could simply reduce it to "Brutal x. This weapon always does a minimum of x+1 damage. If the roll is lower than x, treat it as if the roll was x+1." Thus the Brutal 2 Axe mentioned would treat 1, 2, 3 as a 3. Simple, no rerolls to potentially slow things don if the player becomes a Jonah and it retains the effect of the original (although slightly less powerful as you can't get more than the minimum). Maybe make it the average damage for the weapon?
Although - as someone else said - this doesn't really mimic the damage curve that you are getting from simply re-rolling the die on a 1 or 2. Now, instead of having a chance to get a 3 through 12 on a 1 or 2, you get a 3 only. That's just not as good as re-rolling.
A character using a brutal weapon is guaranteed a minimum of 3 anyways - so they would always want to re-roll and take a chance of getting a better score rather than taking 3.
Makes it simply, but the re-roll mechanic is much more "brutal".
Clever thought Paul!
You could simply reduce it to "Brutal x. This weapon always does a minimum of x+1 damage. If the roll is lower than x, treat it as if the roll was x+1." Thus the Brutal 2 Axe mentioned would treat 1, 2, 3 as a 3. Simple, no rerolls to potentially slow things don if the player becomes a Jonah and it retains the effect of the original (although slightly less powerful as you can't get more than the minimum). Maybe make it the average damage for the weapon?Although - as someone else said - this doesn't really mimic the damage curve that you are getting from simply re-rolling the die on a 1 or 2. Now, instead of having a chance to get a 3 through 12 on a 1 or 2, you get a 3 only. That's just not as good as re-rolling.
A character using a brutal weapon is guaranteed a minimum of 3 anyways - so they would always want to re-roll and take a chance of getting a better score rather than taking 3.
Makes it simply, but the re-roll mechanic is much more "brutal".
True, true. But in terms of making the Brutal property faster in gameplay, while maintaining its "spirit" this is pretty good.
Really, a Brutal 2 weapon (that does a d12) has a range of 3-12, giving it an average damage of 7.5, the same as a theoretical d14. If we could just roll one of those you'd be solid.
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Clever thought Paul!
You could simply reduce it to "Brutal x. This weapon always does a minimum of x+1 damage. If the roll is lower than x, treat it as if the roll was x+1." Thus the Brutal 2 Axe mentioned would treat 1, 2, 3 as a 3. Simple, no rerolls to potentially slow things don if the player becomes a Jonah and it retains the effect of the original (although slightly less powerful as you can't get more than the minimum). Maybe make it the average damage for the weapon?Although - as someone else said - this doesn't really mimic the damage curve that you are getting from simply re-rolling the die on a 1 or 2. Now, instead of having a chance to get a 3 through 12 on a 1 or 2, you get a 3 only. That's just not as good as re-rolling.
A character using a brutal weapon is guaranteed a minimum of 3 anyways - so they would always want to re-roll and take a chance of getting a better score rather than taking 3.
Makes it simply, but the re-roll mechanic is much more "brutal".
That someone else was me. Can't let anyone else shoot my suggestions down, can I? ;-)
As an alternative, instead of the minimum, do the die average + the brutal number when you roll equal or less than the brutal number. That requires a bit more set up in having the damage die with their averages, but is still sufficiently brutal, I'd think.
Example: The Brutal 2 Axe had a d12 dice, so it would do 6.5+2=8.5 (Not sure if 4E rounds up or down) when you roll a 1 or 2.
True, true. But in terms of making the Brutal property faster in gameplay, while maintaining its "spirit" this is pretty good.
Really, a Brutal 2 weapon (that does a d12) has a range of 3-12, giving it an average damage of 7.5, the same as a theoretical d14. If we could just roll one of those you'd be solid.
So what about rolling multiple dice as weapon damage? Is this not a viable tactic in 4th Edition? Does a weapon's damage die have to be ONE die?
3d4 for example has a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 12 - I think this replicates the brutal effect nicely.
The only downside is - powers with X[W], where X is greater than 1 adds up the dice quickly. 2[W] would be 6d4 and 3[W] would be 9d4...
I have a nice dice collection, but rolling 9d4 seems just as wieldy as re-rolling.
So what about rolling multiple dice as weapon damage? Is this not a viable tactic in 4th Edition? Does a weapon's damage die have to be ONE die?
There are several weapons that use multiple damage dice in 4E. The Glaive does 2d4 damage.
That someone else was me. Can't let anyone else shoot my suggestions down, can I? ;-)
As an alternative, instead of the minimum, do the die average + the brutal number when you roll equal or less than the brutal number. That requires a bit more set up in having the damage die with their averages, but is still sufficiently brutal, I'd think.
Example: The Brutal 2 Axe had a d12 dice, so it would do 6.5+2=8.5 (Not sure if 4E rounds up or down) when you roll a 1 or 2.
In 4th Edition all rolls are rounded down.
So according to your theory, a roll of 1 would equal 3 and a roll of 2 would be 4?
That gives you these possible results:
3, 4, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12.
That's an average of 6.8 - or 6 in 4th Edition. Which is still lower than the average of 7.5 - or 7 in 4th Edition.
Kir Lannen now serve Shar?
*sigh*
Of course, because Shar is just so damn cool that even beings sworn to destroy the worship of every deity end up worshiping her.
She's like the Chuck Norris of the Realms.
There are several weapons that use multiple damage dice in 4E. The Glaive does 2d4 damage.
So what about rolling multiple dice as weapon damage? Is this not a viable tactic in 4th Edition? Does a weapon's damage die have to be ONE die?
Good eye!
But, that doesn't help us with weapons that are brutal that are d4s, d6s, d8s, or d10s.
How do you break up a d10 Brutal 2 weapon?
You can't... You gotta just reroll.
So what about rolling multiple dice as weapon damage? Is this not a viable tactic in 4th Edition? Does a weapon's damage die have to be ONE die?
3d4 for example has a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 12 - I think this replicates the brutal effect nicely.
While it's true that you're mimicing the range for the attack, you're in no way mimicing the spread of that damage. Rerolling gives you an equal change for 3 thru 12, while a 3d4 highly favors the center of the range, ensuring you'd see 7's and 8's much, much more often then a 3 or 12.
Now, my question is this. Why is this a problem? I mean, rerolling damage on a 1 and 2 isn't that big a time sink. You pick up the dice and you drop it again. 1 extra second, 2 tops.
Even if everybody at the table has one of these weapons, it's not like the reroll comes as a surprise. Everybody knows what happens when they roll a 1 or 2, and just do it. There's no thought involved, no complicated math.
Unless your player does a complicated interprative dance as part of rerolling, I don't see this adding much time to any fight.
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That someone else was me. Can't let anyone else shoot my suggestions down, can I? ;-)
As an alternative, instead of the minimum, do the die average + the brutal number when you roll equal or less than the brutal number. That requires a bit more set up in having the damage die with their averages, but is still sufficiently brutal, I'd think.
Example: The Brutal 2 Axe had a d12 dice, so it would do 6.5+2=8.5 (Not sure if 4E rounds up or down) when you roll a 1 or 2.
In 4th Edition all rolls are rounded down.
So according to your theory, a roll of 1 would equal 3 and a roll of 2 would be 4?
That gives you these possible results:
3, 4, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12.
That's an average of 6.8 - or 6 in 4th Edition. Which is still lower than the average of 7.5 - or 7 in 4th Edition.
No. It is the average + the Brutal number, not the number rolled.
So a d4 will do 2+ brutal number, d6 will do 3+ brutal number, d8 4+, etc, etc.So you'd have 8, 8, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
Good eye!But, that doesn't help us with weapons that are brutal that are d4s, d6s, d8s, or d10s.
How do you break up a d10 Brutal 2 weapon?
You can't... You gotta just reroll.
I saw your earlier thought on breaking damage die up, but didn't comment mostly because I figured it'd end up taking longer than just rerolling the darn thing the first time. :P
I mean, your idea works, mathematically (at least for Brutal 2 d12 -> 3d4) but I'm not sure you'd save time (and by switching to 3d4 you're much more likely to be rolling averages than really high and low)
For all we know, there won't be any Brutal Weapons below d10, or even d12. I wonder if we'll see another property, Wimpy. Like Wimpy 11 d12, reroll all damage rolls over 11. :P