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I am thinking of just creating a 'class' that has full caster levels (choose arcane or divine) that are spontaneous casters with spells per day and known as a sorcerer. D8 HD, ability to use light armor without spell failure(if arcane), proficiency in one martial weapon, 4+int Skill points per level, choose 5 skills as class skills, add +2 to the caster level of spells every 5 levels, DR 5 at level 10, and SR= 5+ caster level.
I would make some options to get rid of spellcasting and associated stuff in exchange for a D12 HD, Proficiency in one exotic weapon, all armor proficiency, and fighter bonus feats and a special ability every 5 levels(like sneak attack, leaping pounce, stuff like that).
I don't wanna have to pick through 15+ books to try to put together something 3 ELs higher than the PCs that will last 2-4 rounds. I think a generic DM class or classes is needed. Maybe not what I have above but something. Any thoughts or suggestions on this?
not any thoughts on the specifics of the class, but i see it as perfectly ok for a DM to make "NPC only" classes, just as long as every single villian doesn't have them. but from time to time, and as long as they aren't horribly overpowered, go for it.
::edit:: when I get to DM (not very often) I'm bad for gestalting the first 2 or 3 levels of big bad guys to give them a little kick.
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not any thoughts on the specifics of the class, but i see it as perfectly ok for a DM to make "NPC only" classes, just as long as every single villian doesn't have them. but from time to time, and as long as they aren't horribly overpowered, go for it.
::edit:: when I get to DM (not very often) I'm bad for gestalting the first 2 or 3 levels of big bad guys to give them a little kick.
Never thought of that.....I could just gestalt the core classes to give some ummpphhh. I think I like this better...
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Sometimes I use Incantations to cheat.
If the uber-bad-guy just *has* to live long enough to finish his speech, or be 'conveniently' immune to the parties massive alpha strike for dramatic reasons, I make up some Incantation that involves some ridiculous sacrifice or highly specific events or only works for someone who has pledged their soul to the Unspeakable One (and don't leave directions around for the party to find in any event, since you never know when one of them is going to think that eternal servitude to the Unspeakable One is worth a having Super-Power X for one round...).
Alternately, if the game includes Action Points, I use an idea from Mutants & Masterminds and give the party an extra 'Hero Point' every time I 'cheat' by invoking GM's Fiat and having an NPC auto-save versus something. When I'm using that option, I don't have to worry about the big bad guy getting cheaply ganked, and the Action Points means that the players don't have to worry quite so much about their characters getting hosed by a bad die roll either. It allows a tiny bit of narrative control for both players and DM, which is nice.
Another idea from M&M is that not all NPCs need a fully detailed background. M&M (a point based system with power cap limitations) reccomends that in many cases, setting the max abilities of the NPC and giving a short list of special abilities is enough. So for speed bump NPCs, all you really need to know is the basic stat block. Then, fill in as needed. (Which you already know, but most DMs I know create more details about NPCs then is necessary. Possibly as a defense against rules lawyer players. Possibly because a well written character, pc or not, is its own reward.)
It can also be quite effective if you save PC character sheets from previous campaigns. Just Gestalt two or so together and change the name. Just be careful not to play the character better than the player did if they're still around.
Never thought of that.....I could just gestalt the core classes to give some ummpphhh. I think I like this better...not any thoughts on the specifics of the class, but i see it as perfectly ok for a DM to make "NPC only" classes, just as long as every single villian doesn't have them. but from time to time, and as long as they aren't horribly overpowered, go for it.
::edit:: when I get to DM (not very often) I'm bad for gestalting the first 2 or 3 levels of big bad guys to give them a little kick.
It does give the baddies a bit more bite. And you can make nasty builds with just the core classes (though adding levels of racial Paragon from UA is also a great low-level fix - if you can use them).
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
I think gestalting would produce better results, too. A "DM superclass," as described, seems to lack a lot of focus, and you may run the risk of making the BBEGs too similar, with nearly the same abilities every time.
Gestalting will probably be better. The BBEG can have a "main" class, the one the characters will know him as (such as cleric, or even sorcerer, though you run the risk tipping them off to something being very, very different if the "mage" starts putting the melee smackdown on them), and then a secondary class which is only there for mechanical reasons to make the guy tougher. Fighter seems very appealing; it gives great HD, BAB, massive customization options, weapon proficiencies, and it "blends" into the background of the "main" class very well.
Hell, you could just "multiclass" some NPCs with a few bonus fighter levels, but not count them into the CR. Treat it like monster/racial HD with an unassociated class: every two fighter levels adds only one CR.
NPC classes work really well, because they are so underpowered compared to core classes that you just don't notice they've been added in all that much. Man, if a character does something particuarlly awsome or a player goes above and beyond to make the experiance more enjoyable for everybody, I'll hand out "free" npc classes as treasure in the form of a mysterious magic tome and not count it in the ECL.
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NPC classes work really well, because they are so underpowered compared to core classes that you just don't notice they've been added in all that much. Man, if a character does something particuarlly awsome or a player goes above and beyond to make the experiance more enjoyable for everybody, I'll hand out "free" npc classes as treasure in the form of a mysterious magic tome and not count it in the ECL.
My one attempt to do just that was when converting a bunch of Freeport stuff for my own use, and I wanted the main 'hanging judge' to be a Cleric of Wee Jas, but also have some skills from a lawyerly background, which would have required a level of Expert thrown in.
Then I saw the Cloistered Cleric and smacked myself for spending even a second thinking of some Expert/Cleric mish-mash...
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If you're having a problem with your bad guys going down too fast, more than likely you're not playing them or their help smart enough, not using the full faculties of thier homebase in placement etc... They should have power up suites and well placed guards to warn them when they need to have them engaged.
Yeah, it's that. I suck as a DM. You make an easy badguy that can stand up to 300+ HP of damage a round and every ridiculous effect from nauseated to blinded at 8th to 10th level without spending a ton of time and effort finding abilities from a bunch of books and I'll give you some kudos. I have some players who are powergamers and min-maxers. They also are good at tactics. If you don't see a problem with the stuff that I see then you don't have the types of players I have and that has colored your perception of my issue.
Don't come on the thread to try to beat me up or toss crap on my DMing style. Help out with the issue at hand or go away. I have players that lay out 100+ damage at 10th level each. I have players with DC 26 on some spells at 10th level. I had an 8th level PC that could punch through stone and tunnel about with his 'Three mountain style' to overcome DR. I have a druid with a +37 grapple modifier at 10th level, I have a dude that can hit a Fire Elemental for 70-100 damage from a fireball at 11th level. All of this is allowable in the rules.If you don't have these problems and more from your players you should count yourself as lucky instead of bashing us who do.
Here is another thing I've noticed since I've been playing with using average hit points, but hit points indeed can have a dramatic effect on how an encounter goes. My thought its, its even "technically legal" if you give your BBEGs max hit points. Also, what do you use for their attributes?
I can definitely empathize. I remember in another campaign I ran, every time I wanted to use spellcasters, they ended getting ripped to shreds before they ever got to cast a spell, and it felt really anti climactic and frustrating to see my mastermind go down like that.
For a while I started making a bunch of "sneaky" casters that were Magelords or Arcane Tricksters so they got a chance of at least casting a nasty spell with sneak attack damage in the surprise round.
For some reason, my current campaign doesn't seem to have the same level of lethality when it comes to the PCs cutting down spellcasters.
LazarX, I've found it useful to check profiles before replying to questions on threads. Fake Healer has almost 6000 and, while that doesn't mean anything in particular, I'm quessing it's not his first high level game. It's just that game styles differ, so he's had different experiences than you. He didn't seem to be asking for help on tactics or strategy, just on how to speed up the construction of NPCs for encounters.
For less experienced DMs (like me) your advice would be more useful, but that wasn't the point of the thread.
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LazarX, I've found it useful to check profiles before replying to questions on threads. Fake Healer has almost 6000 and, while that doesn't mean anything in particular, I'm quessing it's not his first high level game. It's just that game styles differ, so he's had different experiences than you. He didn't seem to be asking for help on tactics or strategy, just on how to speed up the construction of NPCs for encounters.
For less experienced DMs (like me) your advice would be more useful, but that wasn't the point of the thread.
On the head....
I've been DMing on and off since 1979. I've run epic level stuff. My problem isn't with high level games. It's with powergaming. I have players that can take the PHB and DMG and make something obscene with it. I just want to be able to make powerful foes quickly. I don't wanna spend an hour+ making a villain that manages to fail a DC 24 glitterdust save on the first round and is useless until the PCs finally end his suffering. I want to streamline the Baddie creation process and not have underpowered NPCs because I didn't use all the books. I have a limit on books used in my game by PCs. PHB, PHB2, DMG, DMG2, a couple of the 'Completes', Races of Stone, Spell Compendium (never again on that one), and Magic item Compendium (on a more limited basis next time). 6-8 actual PC books.
I'm going to look into this.
Punketah walks out the door, lightning bolts Gittik and Elgan.
Riese scorches Punketah.
Beldan shoots Punketah in the head with a crossbow.
Punketah crumples to the ground.
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Here is another thing I've noticed since I've been playing with using average hit points, but hit points indeed can have a dramatic effect on how an encounter goes. My thought its, its even "technically legal" if you give your BBEGs max hit points. Also, what do you use for their attributes?
I can definitely empathize. I remember in another campaign I ran, every time I wanted to use spellcasters, they ended getting ripped to shreds before they ever got to cast a spell, and it felt really anti climactic and frustrating to see my mastermind go down like that.
For a while I started making a bunch of "sneaky" casters that were Magelords or Arcane Tricksters so they got a chance of at least casting a nasty spell with sneak attack damage in the surprise round.
For some reason, my current campaign doesn't seem to have the same level of lethality when it comes to the PCs cutting down spellcasters.
I'm supporting KEJR's suggestions. Want a fighter baddie that won't go down to a will save? Give him an 18 Wisdom and let your NPCs use action points too. Want a hefty caster? 18 Dex and 18 Con. Remember, your NPCs are special too, so give them the stats they need, not what the dice say (after all, you could roll up 100 NPCs and just choose the best one as the villain, so just make it ieasy on yourself).
I'm not sure about the idea of an NPC class that is vastly superior to some of the PC ones, or using gestalt levels if the PCs cannot. It's not wrong, but I wouldn't do it. I think Fake Healer could achieve the goal by using a feat (or series of feats) that are only available to NPCs for one reason or another (patron deity/alignment is a good start). It would not be unreasonable to create a feat, accessible at 9th level, that grants full or partial spellcasting to a non-caster, with some caveats such as small spell selection and spells known.
I would have no problem giving an NPC improved evasion as a feat if they had some sort of prerequisites.
I've been DMing on and off since 1979. I've run epic level stuff. My problem isn't with high level games. It's with powergaming. I have players that can take the PHB and DMG and make something obscene with it. I just want to be able to make powerful foes quickly.
Fakey,
I've often been in the same boat, but I use a different tactic. Because my players have learned to trust that the game world operates by consistent rules, I don't let myself "cheat." That's forced me to be more clever in designing foes:1. Avoid the 4-on-1 scenario. It's absurd, and nearly imossible to adjudicate fairly. Whenever possible, I prefer one equal-CR foe per PC. Alternatively, one BBEG maybe level+3 and a pair of level+1 bodyguards can be a good setup. But this applies only if you MUST have a final fight.
2. Even more importantly, a bit of situational manipulation goes go a long way. For example, the scariest BBEG I ever ran had no PC class levels -- but he had money, political connections, and military protection. Being unable to kill him outright, the PCs were forced to catch him doing something that negated his diplomatic immunity. In another case, the BBEG had information they needed; they couldn't just kill him outright, which made things tricky for them. This leads to...
3. The whole adventure-leads-to-fighting-and-killing-one-super-powerful-bad-guy thing is a bit overdone (not to mention video-game-esque), especially because 99% of adventures are written that way. Sometimes my BB"E"G can end up supporting the PCs against an army, if they impress him enough. Sometimes he's long gone before they reach his lair. Sometimes he goes down like a chump, because unravelling his plans was the really hard part. Sometimes he turns out to be the wrong bad guy.
Anyway, these are some of the things I do. Rather than blatantly cheat to make tougher bad guys, I prefer to change the underlying assumptions a bit.
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There is actually an online Net resource where people contribute characters of all levels and races for others to use. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of it but it has been mentioned on these boards.
Is this it(?):
http://www.dmtools.org/If so, amazing site! If not, still an amazing site. ;)
Dank yew Gene! :D
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[edited for brevity]... PHB, PHB2, DMG, DMG2, a couple of the 'Completes', Races of Stone, Spell Compendium (never again on that one), and Magic item Compendium (on a more limited basis next time). 6-8 actual PC books.
I was considering picking up the Spell Compendium. Do you have some insight on this before I introduce it into my game?
I was considering picking up the Spell Compendium. Do you have some insight on this before I introduce it into my game?
Do not allow bolt of glory. Seriously. It's so far broken that there's almost no way to fix it.
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I was considering picking up the Spell Compendium. Do you have some insight on this before I introduce it into my game?
[edited for brevity]... PHB, PHB2, DMG, DMG2, a couple of the 'Completes', Races of Stone, Spell Compendium (never again on that one), and Magic item Compendium (on a more limited basis next time). 6-8 actual PC books.
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I was considering picking up the Spell Compendium. Do you have some insight on this before I introduce it into my game?Do not allow bolt of glory. Seriously. It's so far broken that there's almost no way to fix it.
I learned my lesson when a cleric in one Red Hand of Doom campaign used it in the final battle. Wow.
I learned my lesson when a cleric in one Red Hand of Doom campaign used it in the final battle. Wow.
You mean, "won the entire battle with it, single-handedly, and probably killed the real Tiamat with it as well" ?
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I learned my lesson when a cleric in one Red Hand of Doom campaign used it in the final battle. Wow.You mean, "won the entire battle with it, single-handedly, and probably killed the real Tiamat with it as well" ?
Pretty much whooped Tiamat with it. But I was happy at the time, since the player was so excited just to be able to use it. But afterwards, when they said "I am always using that spell" that was my clue as the DM. I mean, it doesn't seem super-unbalanced damage-wise (huge variance) but caster level makes all the difference (minimum 11d12 to cast it).
I am leaning towards putting the light of lunia series of spells out to pasture as well. My cleric used light of mercuria against the vampire in SCAP and took him down in the first round with 39 points of damage.