I am wondering if I have been making a mistake in running things. For those creatures that do not list treasure in the HC, but instead just list a pg # in the MM, should I be rolling and including random treasure or is the total treasure in the adventure complete for all the challenges found in the adventure?
Sean Mahoney
I am wondering if I have been making a mistake in running things. For those creatures that do not list treasure in the HC, but instead just list a pg # in the MM, should I be rolling and including random treasure or is the total treasure in the adventure complete for all the challenges found in the adventure?
Sean Mahoney
You should be fine with the treasure listed in the adventure.
Are you worried your PC's aren't 'getting enough'?
Yes, very much so.
When we first started I would count up all of their gears value and then give out extra rewards to them from Jenya, the City (through Vhalantru) or whatever made sense. I did this for the first three adventures and in all cases it was necessary to 'bring them back up to par' with the expected treasure level as presented in the DMG.
Now there are a couple of reasons I can think of other than the treasure in the book being off (which is why I was checking that).
First, they rarely search rooms for anything. This means that they miss most secret doors and hidden treasures of any kind. This also extends to rarely searching bodies of enemies. They love the stories and just don't think about the treasure.
Second, I have house ruled out XP in my campaign. Instead I have been levelling them up at the appropriate times in the story. While I have been very much enjoying this method, I realize that it also divorces treasure given out from XP. It is possible that with the fights they actually get involved in that they wouldn't be at the level they are... and therefor haven't had the chance to encounter the appropriate amount of treasure.
Third, I don't think they are evenly distributing treasure. It seems to be whoever wants something grabs it and only what is left over is split evenly amongst the group. This likely has led to the more vocal players getting the best and most treasure.
This all came up when I asked last gaming session for one of them to count up their total level of treasure. Another player, who uses an online tool for his character piped up that his program does it for him. He sited having 63,000 gp worth of goods with the DMG indicating 110,000 is average for their level. I don't know how accurate his count is though and I don't know how representative he is of the rest of the group.
So my steps for looking into this were...
1 - determine if the modules are giving out the appropriate amount of treasure
2 - look at one adventure and see if the path the players took is just avoiding most of the treasure
3 - Take each of the character sheets home and do the math myself <shudder> to determine where they REALLY are in treasure levels.
Now... the next thing is... how do I fix it. My thought is it depends on the reasons they are behing. In the case it is just that they don't ever search for or find the treasure, I am thinking I just talk to them about it and recommend they search more often (again). If though, it is that they don't have the chance to find the greater amount of treasure, then I need to look about increasing treasures (in this case Vitriss Bale's horde will grow significantly).
Anyway... any thoughts would be great appreciated.
Sean Mahoney
I see your problem. Especially because in 3.5, having the apropriate gear is an essential part of the PC's power level.
Still, this should only really come into play a few times per adventure, when the party is streached for resources and encounters a major adversary. Other than that, there shouldn't be any reason why your party can't survive with less gear. Especially if they are prepared to share it more evenly.
My party lagged behind the wealth by level curve about halfway through the AP and never caught up. It wasn't really that big of a problem, though. Firstly because they compensated with good tactics and secondly because they bought gear that played on their strength.
I see a couple of ways out:
1) Give them the level apropriate treasure, no matter what they do. This is not a route I would take myself, as finding hidden or unsual treasure is part of the reward for exploring. I can see it happening on a few occasions, though. For example finding Alacast or a few of the special weapons give the party a significant boost in battles in that or next adventures. Generally, though, it would probably be better to hint the players to the options of searching an area.
2) Boost your party's level. If you need to increase your party's power level, but don't want to give them gear for free, you could give them an extra level instead. The advantage is that the result is the same, but you aren't seen handing out treasure and generally rewarding 'lazy' behaviour.
3) Pull punches. It's only really a problem a couple of encounters per adventure, and even then it could be overcome with some creative tactics. During these encounters, make sure your party is doing an apropriate amount of damage each round (about 1/4 of all the oponent's hp should be enough). If they aren't, either increase the damage, or have the oponent's attacks or spells fail. This way, you still have exiting combat without risking a TPK every other encounter.
It's good to know it isn't just me or my group ;)
I am guessing that #3 will be the most likely option I will be using. I would go with #2 but I think it helps the casters who are already dominating in the game.
I suppose I still need to actually count up their gear value as a group rather than just one individual from a program. That should let me know the real situation as well.
Thanks for the advice!
Sean Mahoney
I had a similar problem. It comes from two sources: not being able to purchase gear due to location restrictions (the Demonskar-Occipitus arc can get extrememly problematic for this reason) and PCs not combing every square inch for treasure. Also, if the PCs are classes that came after the AP (which is almost all of the splattbook classes) they may find themselves feeling the pinch in that arena too. My party warlock was rather tepid until I swapped a +2 weapon for the Warlock Scepter.
I have been allowing them pretty much free access to 'order' any magic items they want out of the Magic Item Compendium, DMG, or any other 3.5 WOTC book. The idea being that this happens at Skie's for the discount and she orders it in from Sasserine or the like. Basically I decided it wouldn't necessarily be fun to limit their access to anything and so realistic or not decided to allow free access.
Additionally, the Wizard has actually spent most of his feats on item creation feats and combined with my house rule with no XP has been able to pretty much craft them anything they need (I would put the hammer down on him if he started trying to use it for money making schemes).
So, in my case at least, access shouldn't be an issue. But I think they take your #2 of not combing everything for treasure to the extreme.
Sean Mahoney
Well... we'll see how this goes... but after all my math and looking for reasons, I decided to add a significant amount of potential treasure to what is left of the Secrets of the Soul Pillars adventure.
I determined that they would need approximately 200,000 for the group as a whole to be brought back up to the standard treasure value for their level.
So I looked at the chart that indicated how much treasure in awarded for an encounter of any given level and then rolled a d6+8 to determine an encounter level and kept adding together encounter awards this way until the total would be approximately 200,000 gp.
I then used the Magic Item Compendium (different treasure charts than the DMG) to roll up each of these treasure awards. Lots of cash, art, jewels and new and different magic items as a result.
I then spread out the treasure where it made the most sense in the rooms that were left in the Dungeon (they are part way through Kuran-Karral).
1/2 of all the treasure was added to Vitriss Bale's hoard. Then 2 encounters worth in the storage hallway, Fetor Abradius' room and in the scrying room where he now resides.
This will be a MAJOR boost to the PCs. Should be interesting to see how much of a difference it makes... (approximately 40,000 gp / character in my game).
Sean Mahoney
My players were really getting their asses kicked when they went off to Occipitus (around 11th level) and immediately after coming back with the assassins' attack.
They felt they were poor and underpowered, so they decided to go back to Occipitus to the Plain of Cysts...
Basically, after gaining a level, they went back and cleaned out Occipitus. With a dragon hoard (I thought that poor black dragon had a crappy hoard, something like a +1 mace and some plate, so I made it reasonable as per the Draconomicon) in their bag of holding, they headed to Calimport (my campaign is in FR) and bought whatever they wanted, since it's such a huge city.
Which was fine. They still lost the two fighters in the temple of Wee Jas, but after Vitriss Bale, that was two dragon hoards in pretty quick succession.
They just broke up the party at House Rhiavadi without really breaking a sweat and I'm now worried they're a little overpowered. If they waltz through House Vhalantru next session, then I'll do an audit.
So if your party is missing treasure and feeling underpowered, why aren't they being more thorough? Why don't they go back to an area they feel they've "beaten" and look around? If they're leaving treasure behind, I'd just outright tell them, "Look, there's plenty of treasure in the adventure, you're just missing most of it. Maybe you should search more often."
...why aren't they being more thorough?
I think the real answer is role-playing concerns. The characters are motivated by things other than treasure. Well... I should amend that...
My group is composed of 5 people. 4 of them are very... hrmmm... docile. They rarely take the initiative or do things for themselves (two do in combat... they lean toward power gaming). However, the fifth player is very vocal and aggressive with her ideas. As a result her player sort of dominates all action out side of combat. Including, apparently, the searching of the room... which is odd to me... seems like something that rogue/power gamer would be in to.
Anyway... this aggressive player, who does role play quite a bit (though I think even more of it goes in her head), plays a paladin. She has given money to both the church of St. Cuthbert and toward her beau, Alek Tercival, getting his family home back. She also doesn't like her character to be the one searching for treasure or even be concerned about since she feels it doesn't fit with her RP. I don't understand why the others aren't jumping in and just saying I take the time to search the room.
Sean Mahoney
Their current favorite tactic is to send the Cuoatl in both invisible and gaseous to scout, then dim door in to unsuspecting baddies if they can be assured of the area (on the other side of a door down a hallway).
With House Rhiavadi, they sent in the Cuoatl with the wizard's familiar, "Mr. Squeaks." Mr. Squeaks has always been a rat, but recently the wizard upgrade to an imp. He sent his "flying, invisible rat" along with the Cuoatl, and no one in the party even batted an eye at the rat's new found powers.
The Cuoatl has now registered strong objections with his leader (the party bard), having done a detect evil on the rat and found it thoroughly evil. Next session, probably before the assault on House Vhalantru, there will be a confrontation, and either the Cuoatl will go or the imp.
I warned the wizard when he upgraded to an imp that there would be consequences. He is Lawful Neutral, but as he grows in power he's been going to the dark side.
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Allow me to add a different perspective:
Currently my group is on their way to Karran-Kurral (middle Chpt 7); During their foray onto Occipitus, we had a similar group conversation about the "wealth by level" as inappropriate and far under par.
I did an assessment and found that to be true - they hadn't really missed a whole lot. I researched the module and found that indeed it was lacking.
While pondering it, I starting including the make-up of the PCs for my game into that equation.
This is the (unofficial) theory that I have established.
1) D&D 3rd edition is designed as everything on a "grid" - we all know this - X level requires Y XP - should have Z treasure - to be on par to fight A encounter level. This equation is applicable - but only for FOUR PCs.
2) Shackled City is designed and advertised as being appropriate for 6 PCs.
3) My game has two wizards. They are tearing things up!!! The party rarely has an instance when they need something they don't have. If I neutralize one wizard the other makes up for it, or fixes it. Plus a paladin, plus a cleric, (two divine healers), and a swashbuckler/rogue and a fighter. So they have all they need and more.
Typically, if you have 4 characters - there are going to be a lot of "holes" and gaps in the on-hand resources that can be provided by the characters. Which means - once a wizard memorizes all the spells he can memorize, that's it - thats all the diversity there is. Anything you can't memorize and need, must be provided by wands, potions, scrolls etc. The Treasure by Level notion assumes that HALF of that is in permanent magical items, and HALF of it is in temporary or charged, one-shot "clickables" to fill the gaps that you need when you need it.
By providing 50% MORE PCs to the party, those holes and gaps are now able to be filled by more attacks, more spells, more abilities etc. As I considered this truth, I realized just how balanced it really is and makes sense. I explained all of this to my party. A wizard in a 4 many party would NEED a +4 INT item by about 8th level or so - thats pretty typical. It provides extra spells, better DCs, etc.
What this game does instead is have TWO wizards at a little lower INT due to the lacking of treasure; but instead of having 1 extra 4th level spell and 1 extra 5th level spell that the headband provides, the party has 3 extra 4th and 2 extra 5th by having an additional potential wizard.
(this logic applies to any other class that can now afford to have a "back-up" person in the same or similar role).
As it stands - my group has two such wizards: one is the 'evoker' mentality and does pretty much nothing but damage spells, and the other does buffing, and crowd control spells - but together they have a WIDE array of spells to choose from and can always find a way to one or the other effective in a situation.
So, it is MY opinion, that the game is pretty fair and balanced for the character level - perhaps they won't have as much treasure or be the Super-trooper decked out with all the magic items, but IMO, the campaign has done a good job from the start of impressing on everyone that this moduel is based off of a "group" of heroes to be successful. And a group of 6 with moderate treasure is usually going to be more successful than a group of 4 with normal amount of treasure. The Shackled City module makes way for the possibility for the group to succeed and survive due to group dynamics, and cohesion, and not so much just because of their items. Which, IMO, is a good thing; a really good thing.
As for the OP - i see he posted that he has 5 players. In such a case I would recommend bumping the treasure up with them half way between what they have and what they should have.
Sorry for the length - hope this helps give a different perspective.
For the record, the next AP written (Age of Worms) was designed for the standard 4 man group based on 3rd edition mathematics, and the treasure in that path is significantly more abundant. Probably not a coincidence.
Robert
Currently my group is on their way to Karran-Kurral (middle Chpt 7)
Sounds like our groups are in almost the exact same spot. Mine has reached Karran-Kurral and is part way through the exploration. How long have you guys been playing this campaign? How often do you meet and play for? I am just looking for a yard stick measure of how fast other people are moving through the same thing.
I did an assessment and found that to be true - they hadn't really missed a whole lot. I researched the module and found that indeed it was lacking.
I am really curious. Which modules did you do this assessment on? Did you write down the assessment at all? Is it something you can share?
Sean Mahoney
We meet every other week but typically play for 12 hours or so. We have been playing in this campaign since Feb-March 07 I think... so about 1 year and a half.
Interesting... I never imagined it would take this long. Makes me want to run the Pathfinder stuff since it ends a little earlier... but I don't want to miss AoW and ST!
Sean Mahoney
For the record, the next AP written (Age of Worms) was designed for the standard 4 man group based on 3rd edition mathematics, and the treasure in that path is significantly more abundant. Probably not a coincidence.
Keep in mind, also, that Cauldron has 2 stable sources of magical equipment that can apply through most of the campaign: Skye's Treasury and the Bluecrater Academy. SCAP can get away with less treasure scattered about because of that what with Skye's discount and the ability to commission specific items that will be particularly useful for PC builds.
And, you can plant items that will be particularly useful in upcoming adventures by putting into Skye's inventory.
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For the record, the next AP written (Age of Worms) was designed for the standard 4 man group based on 3rd edition mathematics, and the treasure in that path is significantly more abundant. Probably not a coincidence.Keep in mind, also, that Cauldron has 2 stable sources of magical equipment that can apply through most of the campaign: Skye's Treasury and the Bluecrater Academy. SCAP can get away with less treasure scattered about because of that what with Skye's discount and the ability to commission specific items that will be particularly useful for PC builds.
And, you can plant items that will be particularly useful in upcoming adventures by putting into Skye's inventory.
Correct. Good point.
Robert
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Sounds like our groups are in almost the exact same spot. Mine has reached Karran-Kurral and is part way through the exploration. How long have you guys been playing this campaign? How often do you meet and play for? I am just looking for a yard stick measure of how fast other people are moving through the same thing.
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We play every other week (approximately - we might miss a week, and then make it up later with a back-to-back week session). We play 10AM - 6PM (8 hours) usually without a significant break.
My first game was late March 07. We just played Session 30. This Saturday will be session 31 and I anticipate them starting and completing K-K in the same session.
My goal is to finish this by Mid Jan - so that i can start AoW the weekend following Super Bow in Feb.
I am really curious. Which modules did you do this assessment on? Did you write down the assessment at all? Is it something you can share?Sean Mahoney
I dont have any notes. i just went through all the previous chapters to see what potential treasure was there - and made sure they didn't miss anything (which they hadn't) and added it up per chapter - and for six characters - it was too low. It was okay for 4 - but not for 6.
Robert