Conservative radio and CNN host Glenn Beck was raving about it as a salute to the current administration's tactics in the war on terror, willing to do what has to be done to stop evil.
I've seen any number of blog posts on the subject, as well are articles an op-eds in the NYTimes and LATimes.
Wall Street Journal ran this:
What Batman and Bush have in Common
Discuss :)
Does that make Dick Cheney Robin? And Condi is Batgirl?
No, Dick Cheney would be Alfed.
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Conservative radio and CNN host Glenn Beck was raving about it as a salute to the current administration's tactics in the war on terror, willing to do what has to be done to stop evil.
I've seen any number of blog posts on the subject, as well are articles an op-eds in the NYTimes and LATimes.
Wall Street Journal ran this:
What Batman and Bush have in Common
Discuss :)
See, I saw the whole "willing to do what has to be done to stop evil" as the exact approach Batman rejected in Batman Begins. Ras al'Ghul believed that he knew what was best for the people, and he felt an obligation to do what was necessary to make it happen.
Batman, on the other hand, is specifically not willing to do whatever it takes. He won't kill, period. He refuses to kill the Joker even as the maniac is firing a gun at random citizens in the middle of the street.
I think they muddled the message a bit with the surveillance program that Batman uses, but ultimately Batman's goal is to inspire the people to work together to better Gotham, not to unilaterally make the changes that he feels need to be made for the betterment of the civilians who don't know what's best for them.
I think they muddled the message a bit with the surveillance program that Batman uses, but ultimately Batman's goal is to inspire the people to work together to better Gotham, not to unilaterally make the changes that he feels need to be made for the betterment of the civilians who don't know what's best for them.
I don't know. It seems to me in this most recent film he's willing to take on the hatred of the people and do the work that none of them are willing to do.
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I don't know. It seems to me in this most recent film he's willing to take on the hatred of the people and do the work that none of them are willing to do.
He's definitely willing to take on the people's hatred, but I saw that more as an expression of his desire that they retain a symbol of hope so that they'll continue to work toward improving Gotham. He just believed that Harvey Dent served as a better symbol for them, since he worked from within the system rather than outside it.
EDIT: Actually, upon further reflection, I think it's the fact that Batman isn't willing to do whatever it takes to stop the Joker that enables him to claim true victory over him at the end. The Joker's stated goal is to show the world that everyone is exactly like him deep down, and he vows that Batman will break his one rule to stop him, thus proving the Joker's point. Batman refuses to kill him no matter what, and the Joker is forced to concede that he is incorruptible.
Politcos always shamelessly grab onto whatever is popular to hopefully glom onto an easy fanbase. DK is THE biggest thing right now (for a large number of reasons), but whoever can grab onto a very narrow message gleaned from it and try to make it easy for voters. "Hey, I like Batman, those guys like Batman...I will vote for those guys".
I hated it when they did the same thing with "Forrest Gump". I saw the movie before the hype happened and told people that I loved this little movie. Then the GOP glommed onto it and tied it into whatever platform they were running on. I didnt watch that movie for almost 5 years after the hype machine started. (Its still a great movie.)
Politcos always shamelessly grab onto whatever is popular to hopefully glom onto an easy fanbase. DK is THE biggest thing right now (for a large number of reasons), but whoever can grab onto a very narrow message gleaned from it and try to make it easy for voters. "Hey, I like Batman, those guys like Batman...I will vote for those guys".
I hated it when they did the same thing with "Forrest Gump". I saw the movie before the hype happened and told people that I loved this little movie. Then the GOP glommed onto it and tied it into whatever platform they were running on. I didnt watch that movie for almost 5 years after the hype machine started. (Its still a great movie.)
Agreed.
Politcos always shamelessly grab onto whatever is popular to hopefully glom onto an easy fanbase. DK is THE biggest thing right now (for a large number of reasons), but whoever can grab onto a very narrow message gleaned from it and try to make it easy for voters. "Hey, I like Batman, those guys like Batman...I will vote for those guys".
This is true. But the movie nevertheless does have certain messages about the things we're discussing. Whether the politicos jump on it or not doesn't change that.
Oh great. Another political thread in the Movies forum. Thanks.
Oh great. Another political thread in the Movies forum. Thanks.
I belong to the onanist party and we really really like movies.
Look, I'm just sayin' Inconvenient Truth relied too heavily on intrusive CGI when old school puppetry and implied horror would have been more effective.
...and might have kept them from losing that court case in Britain.
Presidential campaign? Bah! Bring on the Olympics! Secession, terrorist attacks, censorship and smog. At this rate, I have more material than I could ever use in an M&M campaign.
Oh, and have you seen the Beijing National Stadium? That thing is just begging to be collateral damage.
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Oh, and have you seen the Beijing National Stadium? That thing is just begging to be collateral damage.
Silver Crown of the Celestial Emperor. Stealth-designed by a secret order of Imperialists that reach back 5000 years. It is designed to harness the power of the competing spirits within, their glorious victory and agonizing defeats, in order to awaken the ancient undying who was finally defeated by Genghis Khan(which was the secret reason for his invasion of China). The emperor will reclaim his country with his armies of the dead from all the various heavens and hells and wage his eternal war of conquest once again unless his awakening can be prevented. Another secret order, a splinter sect of Tibetan monks, sets out to warn the world but are set upon by People's Republic super soldiers. Who can they call for help?
meh. You can make a case for anything just taking a small part of a movie. I could make a case for good dental hygiene from the same movie. Bats' teeth are perfect, Harvey's gums are spectacular till (spoiler), and the Joker's teeth are a horrible yellow color. I choose to see it as a fantastic escapist film...just like I did 300 (the other one mentioned in the article linked). If people need to read more into DK, well, go for it!
I choose to see it as a fantastic escapist film...just like I did 300 (the other one mentioned in the article linked).
I would have enjoyed 300 if the cast did not have to shout all of their lines. That movie spoofed itself.
It's not like the Wall Street Journal opinion page is well known for reasonability. The guys who write for that are generally disregarded by the real journalists who work for the paper.
The way I see The Dark Knight, Batman is willing to push the envelope to a certain point when desperate to do so, but he doesn't favor it being respectable to the people. He definitely prefers a stronger hero working in the open like Dent and, being tarnished himself, knows he cannot take that role. Batman, in fact, dives into the underworld, in part, so governments for, of, and by the people don't have to because he knows it's dirty and that kind of dirt will stick.
He gives Lucius Fox the power to destroy the tool he created to track down the Joker once the threat was over. You could read that as he gave someone else oversight to keep himself honest in its use and the implications of having all that power.
If anything can be taken from this to support getting down and dirty with enemies of the US, it implies that it should be limited, temporary, overseen by others with a clearer mind, and should be subordinate to legitimate methods carried out in the public eye.
He gives Lucius Fox the power to destroy the tool he created to track down the Joker once the threat was over. You could read that as he gave someone else oversight to keep himself honest in its use and the implications of having all that power.
Indeed, Lucius came across as the big hero in that respect -- is the GOP supposedly now endorsing the Senate oversight committee?
The funny thing is, what I got at least a little of from Dark Knight is what Mark Waid outlined in his character bios for Kingdom Come, which is that Batman believes in the duty of the aristocracy to make life better for the commoners. In other words, he really doesn't believe in "Truth, Justice, and the American Way," he beleives that since he was born with wealth and privilage, its his "job" to make life better for people that don't have wealth and privalage.
Heck, even his father had this attitude in Batman Begins. I guess the point I'm trying to make here, especially coupled with his comments to Harvey about making sure he wouldn't need to worry about fund raising every agian, is that Batman doesn't care about democracy, elections, or political parties. In the end, he really does see society as being The People Who Rule and The People Who Are Ruled, and he thinks that The People Who Rule, however they got there, are suppose to make the world better for The People Who Are Ruled.
I choose to see it as a fantastic escapist film...just like I did 300 (the other one mentioned in the article linked).I would have enjoyed 300 if the cast did not have to shout all of their lines. That movie spoofed itself.
While I understood why certain symbols may have irked the poltical sensibilities of some, I liked the film as a breezy smasher I took it for. Battle! Giants! Painted-on... six-packs?
But perhaps Batman is a liberal, because no matter what he won't kill, a trait often attributed to liberals.
Bah! The movie was about good and evil. Everyone always perceives their side as good, hence people will see their the film as sympathetic to their viewpoint (since clearly that is good, right?).
Wake me up when people starting claiming to resemble the Joker.
Tell me something, my friend. You ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?
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Silver Crown of the Celestial Emperor. Stealth-designed by a secret order of Imperialists that reach back 5000 years. It is designed to harness the power of the competing spirits within, their glorious victory and agonizing defeats, in order to awaken the ancient undying who was finally defeated by Genghis Khan(which was the secret reason for his invasion of China). The emperor will reclaim his country with his armies of the dead from all the various heavens and hells and wage his eternal war of conquest once again unless his awakening can be prevented. Another secret order, a splinter sect of Tibetan monks, sets out to warn the world but are set upon by People's Republic super soldiers. Who can they call for help?
Best post in this thread!
Is that they are both cartoon characters.
Wall Street Journal ran this:
Batman is *not* a cartoon character. ;-)
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Oh, and have you seen the Beijing National Stadium? That thing is just begging to be collateral damage.Silver Crown of the Celestial Emperor. Stealth-designed by a secret order of Imperialists that reach back 5000 years. It is designed to harness the power of the competing spirits within, their glorious victory and agonizing defeats, in order to awaken the ancient undying who was finally defeated by Genghis Khan(which was the secret reason for his invasion of China). The emperor will reclaim his country with his armies of the dead from all the various heavens and hells and wage his eternal war of conquest once again unless his awakening can be prevented. Another secret order, a splinter sect of Tibetan monks, sets out to warn the world but are set upon by People's Republic super soldiers. Who can they call for help?
man, you should write the next "illuminatus!" book, that was awesome!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Oh, and have you seen the Beijing National Stadium? That thing is just begging to be collateral damage.Silver Crown of the Celestial Emperor. Stealth-designed by a secret order of Imperialists that reach back 5000 years. It is designed to harness the power of the competing spirits within, their glorious victory and agonizing defeats, in order to awaken the ancient undying who was finally defeated by Genghis Khan(which was the secret reason for his invasion of China). The emperor will reclaim his country with his armies of the dead from all the various heavens and hells and wage his eternal war of conquest once again unless his awakening can be prevented. Another secret order, a splinter sect of Tibetan monks, sets out to warn the world but are set upon by People's Republic super soldiers. Who can they call for help?
Via! This almost makes me want to dust off Mage the Ascention and the Book of Crafts.
Or Kindred of the East
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've just read synopsis, hope to see it tomorrow after work. but my thoughts on some things mentioned.
Batman's survalence system; Well sounds like the writers didn't want Brother Eye biting them (ironic in a way). One of the big themes in the JLU series was Green Arrow's question of who watches the watchers.
In comparing Brother Eye to FISA, to answer Green Arrow's question, we do.
Bats does things because he feels they need to be done, regardless of the cost. This shows through in the movies (letting Wayne Manor burn to the ground in Begins, the ending of the second movie) the cartoon (Wonder Woman: You carry Kryptonite around? Why? Batman: Just in case.) and the comics (Tower of Bable being my favourite example). We all imagine we'd like to be able to do what we think it 'right' regardless of the consequences, left and right.
(Wonder Woman: You carry Kryptonite around? Why? Batman: Just in case.)
My opinion of Batman just went way up. That's my kind of guy!
Ah the Joker wasn't even as good as Knives. At least Knives was able to get Vash to kill. And the stuff Knives did to his people made the Joker look like a well adjusted indiviual.
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(Wonder Woman: You carry Kryptonite around? Why? Batman: Just in case.)My opinion of Batman just went way up. That's my kind of guy!
In the comics, Superman gave Batman a quantity of kryptonite to keep around so he could be stopped if he was ever dominated/out of control. He knew Bruce was one of the only people with the determination and capability to use it if necessary. He wouldn't use it unless he absolutely had to, but he WOULD use it if he must.
Of course, Bruce had already procured some on his own for the exact same reasons. :)
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Silver Crown of the Celestial Emperor. Stealth-designed by a secret order of Imperialists that reach back 5000 years. It is designed to harness the power of the competing spirits within, their glorious victory and agonizing defeats, in order to awaken the ancient undying who was finally defeated by Genghis Khan(which was the secret reason for his invasion of China). The emperor will reclaim his country with his armies of the dead from all the various heavens and hells and wage his eternal war of conquest once again unless his awakening can be prevented. Another secret order, a splinter sect of Tibetan monks, sets out to warn the world but are set upon by People's Republic super soldiers. Who can they call for help?Best post in this thread!
Agreed. Makes me want to convince my players to let me run d20 modern or M&M again.
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(Wonder Woman: You carry Kryptonite around? Why? Batman: Just in case.)My opinion of Batman just went way up. That's my kind of guy!In the comics, Superman gave Batman a quantity of kryptonite to keep around so he could be stopped if he was ever dominated/out of control. He knew Bruce was one of the only people with the determination and capability to use it if necessary. He wouldn't use it unless he absolutely had to, but he WOULD use it if he must.
Of course, Bruce had already procured some on his own for the exact same reasons. :)
The reason he knew that Bruce was the one to do the job was because Bruce is the only one that has the absolute moral certainty to stand up against Superman if he starts to do the wrong thing even if what Clark is doing is popular. I'm not saying that the movie is an analogy for the current president. In fact during the scene between Bruce and Lucius, I felt it was the exact opposite. If anything, I think that the movie is a morality tale that is designed to teach us that the popular thing is not always the right or best thing for society. This is true in all aspects of our lives, not just politics. If anything I thought the movie was saying both sides are on the wrong side when it comes to fighting terrorism. We must be willing to do what ever it takes to stop them, which conservitives say liberals are not doing. At the same time we must remember what it is that makes our society worth saving, which liberals say conservatives are not doing. If anything the movie is saying that opposing terrorism cannot be a partisan issue.
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(Wonder Woman: You carry Kryptonite around? Why? Batman: Just in case.)My opinion of Batman just went way up. That's my kind of guy!
The whole Brother Eye/OMAC concept is one giant example of this behavior. he programmed an entire robot army to remain hidden inside innocent people, and be activated if capes went rogue. then he downloaded plans on how to defeat every single cape. then he set it under the watchful eye of an independant sentience in case he himself ever went rogue. This is paranoia, and this led to some of the best story arcs ever. Gotta love Batman. were he the same in the movie, he never would have trusted Fox, and instead would have done it all on his own, since he trusts no one with power. he doesn't even trust himself, but has to since he's all he can rely on.
then again, his paranoia is very justified in the comics, wheras in the movies, there is no reason given for him to be like that.
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The whole Brother Eye/OMAC concept is one giant example of this behavior. he programmed an entire robot army to remain hidden inside innocent people, and be activated if capes went rogue. then he downloaded plans on how to defeat every single cape. then he set it under the watchful eye of an independant sentience in case he himself ever went rogue. This is paranoia, and this led to some of the best story arcs ever. Gotta love Batman. were he the same in the movie, he never would have trusted Fox, and instead would have done it all on his own, since he trusts no one with power. he doesn't even trust himself, but has to since he's all he can rely on.
Kind of like the Xavier Protocals in the X-Men comics. Professor Xavier created a specific file for practically every mutant on Earth explaining how they can be stopped and destroyed if they went rogue, starting with himself.
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Kind of like the Xavier Protocals in the X-Men comics. Professor Xavier created a specific file for practically every mutant on Earth explaining how they can be stopped and destroyed if they went rogue, starting with himself.
The whole Brother Eye/OMAC concept is one giant example of this behavior. he programmed an entire robot army to remain hidden inside innocent people, and be activated if capes went rogue. then he downloaded plans on how to defeat every single cape. then he set it under the watchful eye of an independant sentience in case he himself ever went rogue. This is paranoia, and this led to some of the best story arcs ever. Gotta love Batman. were he the same in the movie, he never would have trusted Fox, and instead would have done it all on his own, since he trusts no one with power. he doesn't even trust himself, but has to since he's all he can rely on.
which led to severe paranoia, which led to no one trusting him, which led to some seriously awesome storylines. incidently, i composed a verbal essay comparing brother eye to the danger room. i swear. if i ever took a class where i had to analyse a comic, i would get A's on every essay.
Wake me up when people starting claiming to resemble the Joker.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I do not think the Joker was far off. I may not agree with his methods, but he has a point.
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which led to severe paranoia, which led to no one trusting him, which led to some seriously awesome storylines. incidently, i composed a verbal essay comparing brother eye to the danger room. i swear. if i ever took a class where i had to analyse a comic, i would get A's on every essay.
I may teach that class next summer. "Comic Books and Political Theory," I love it. Now how do I sell it to my ed. director?
Edit: Did I mention I work at an all girls school?
Now how do I sell it to my ed. director.
You might get kids excited about politics when they can actually relate.
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I may teach that class next summer. "Comic Books and Political Theory," I love it. Now how do I sell it to my ed. director.
which led to severe paranoia, which led to no one trusting him, which led to some seriously awesome storylines. incidently, i composed a verbal essay comparing brother eye to the danger room. i swear. if i ever took a class where i had to analyse a comic, i would get A's on every essay.
show him "Louis Riel" and "Maus". then sum up some good points that are brought up in certain books. like Xavier and the fight for equality and batman and paranoia. if it's phrased correctly, then it can get by. as long as you don't make it sound like you're just trying to teach a class where they read comic books instead of thinking.
incidently, if the ed. director likes comics, it's almost a shoe in. especailly as a summer class.
edit: jsust noticed your edit there. I've noticed from hanging around the comic shop that about 25% of the customers are females and about half of the regulars are. just phrase it as "Graphical Literature" instead of comics. and try to keep the fanboy out. you do not attract chicks (wheter to a class or a conversation) with a discussion on whether or not doctor fate could whoop doc strange. but an analysis about the effects of superheros on politics like done in watchmen or authority may actually garner more attention then you think.
Conservatives also seem to like chocolate! QED.
In fact, I am hard pressed to think of a hero that embodies free market principles and laissez-faire capitalism more than Batman does. He pays for everything with his own money!
Well, in sheer point of fact, he pays for everything with his father's money, not his. He didn't actually do anything himself to earn any of it.
I see your distinction between money inherited versus money earned by oneself. But from my point of view, it really doesn't matter how he got the money. Bruce's father is dead and the son inherited it. At that point, the money is Batman's.
I'm thinking of the old-school barons, J.P. Morgan and those guys, who embodied the philosophy of laissez-faire capitalism. Many of them wrote their wills so that all the personal wealth went to charity -- kids got next to nothing (the Mellons were a notable exception). Batman is kind of the antithesis of that -- whether he's given the money by his family (inheritance) or given the money by the state (wellfare) makes little difference, except in terms of the amount.
Shoot, Batman redistributes money that he was given into programs geared towards helping society. He's like a mini Nanny state all to himself!