Ok, that sounds weird, but I've always been reluctant to DM dungeons as I thought them highly unrealistic. Bu now I would like to have one, be it a real product, or homebrew. I'm also asking about tips or concepts if you have, so I can satisfy my players (wo whant hack'n slash) and myself (who want something coherent).
In short, why are there monsters in this dungeon ?
Could you help me ?
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In short, why are there monsters in this dungeon?
To guard the treasure, duh! Otherwise the PCs could just waltz in and take it!
:)
Most dungeons you'll find in commercial products are pretty bad, about as realistic as most of the castles you find in such products.
In general you can solve the problem by chucking realism out of the window, but sometimes they're so bad that willing suspension of disbelief isn't doable, or (as in your case) you specifically want somwething more coherent. Realism often causes trouble in fantasy gaming, you may start off just wanting a realistic dungeon, but before you know it you'll be looking at the economy, and that way madness lies.
Satisying your players shouldn't be a problem -- if all they want is hack & slash then that's easy enough to give them, so you've only really got to satisy yourself -- creating a coherent dungeon complex that you're happy with is (unless you're going ultra-realistic) unlikely to impinge too much on your player's hack- and slashing-ing.
Reflect on what the individual elements of the dungeons are that you dislike, then go into why those elements cause you concern. The type of random monster-in-a-room encounters common in the 80s have waned over the last 2 decades, and most monsters in most modern adventures have at least some reason to be present -- at it's simplest either they want to be there (it's their home, they're hunting, ...) or someone else wants them to be there (they're staff, slaves, ...).
I tend to fall back on mindless or unnatural stuff as it's often a lot easier to explain away undead, constructs & outsiders than humanoids, animals, and other living creatures.
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Well, near in mind that the dungeon might be the home of the monsters, but not necessarily their place of work - goblins and orcs, for instance, might be advantaged by living underground (darkvision in particular giving them an advantage against creatures without it, like pesky human soldiers) but might range far and wide outside, raiding and pillaging.
More generally, think about what the place is for, what the creatures do, how they might eat and otherwise get the stuff they need. There is quite a lot of advice on this dotted about in the DMG, and in the old Dungeon/Dragon articles on Dungeoncraft. Think what makes the whole complex tick, the power structures, alliances and enimities between different groupings. And undead and constructs are good, since they don't need to eat, breathe or sleep and so create many less problems to make sense of.
But the best way is to look at some dungeon modules and work out what you like. Quite a good example is (I think) Sins of the Saviours (RotRL, Part 5) which has a five (or more) part dungeon, thematically linked, and is therefore a good example of different types of dungeon situation (though it is a hermetically sealed environment in that particular module, and so not quite so good to get a feel for dungeon ecolgy, except as a way to get round that problem). Another fairly good example is the 3.0 module The Sunken Citadel.
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I agree with the two of them. Figure out Who is behind everything, the Why for his actions, What he's doing, and the Where; then all the rest just kinda falls into place.
Think of the whole thing like the D&D equivilient of MadLibs, albeit less random. Okay, so MadLibs is a bad analogy. A better one would be a puzzle. Most people work to find the corner pieces first, then fill in from there.
The construct and undead suggestions are good ones. This is why tombs make excellent dungeons at any level. The only things you're likely to encounter are the aforementioned undead and constructs, as well as some traps and maybe a few summoned creatures. None of those things need any food or sustenence and can survive in said dungeon indefinitely.
As for why they are there, the undead could arise spontaneously (restless souls and all that), or those buried in the tomb could have (willingly or not) had themselves turned into undead to serve as loyal guardians throughout the ages. Same deal with the contstructs, traps, and likely even the summoned creatures- someone put them there to guard the tomb (and likely all it's treasure).
Now, when you consider other dungeons, ones with inhabitants who distiinctly do need to eat, breathe, and sleep, just think about why they are there. In the beholder example, the beholder needs some type of safe place to operate out of, right? Well, it's unlikely he's going to be able to just go out, hire some contractors, and have a castle built. But there's an ancient and abandoned fortress just a few miles away that no one pokes their noses into very often... you see how it becomes appealing.
Now, the reason "random" monsters (the less intelligent ones, that is) inhabit dungeons is really simple: shelter. They're just as likely to inhabit a natural cavern. When a structure has been left unused for any significant amount of time, the local fauna will move in. In D&D, that's everything from wolves to displacer beasts. Strange monsters may move into the place because of the site's location to the ancient past (if it has one and they're that kind of creature), or they could be a remnant of a by-gone age, one that's been lurking in this dungeon why the world outside has changed and its species has become rare or even extinct.
Provided the dungeon has some kind of permanent opening to the outside world, food will come in by way of small wandering animals (even if just rats and mice), and water and soil can also come in during storms (or even seep up from collapsing foundations), allowing for plant life which can be food (or a monster) in its own right. If there is something at the entrance of a dungeon (or anywhere within) that blocks this regular access to the outside world, then no, that dungeon is unlikely to have such an ecology and will be more like the previously discussed tombs.
Things can become even more complex when the beholder moves into the ancient fortress and finds a pack of displacer beasts there. He could scare them off, or leave them as wild "guardians" of a sort, or he could even use magic to tame them and make them truly loyal companions. So there you've explained why the beholder has displacer beasts at his beck and call.
Humanoids, of course, are going to have a need for more recognizable architectural features. This is why I don't like putting orcs and goblins and the like in actual caves in my game; there seem to be as many abandoned fortresses as there are caves in a typical D&D world. Provided the two are equally accessable, I can't possibly see why such intelligent creatures would choose the cave. I've spent my fair share of time underground spelunking; it ain't an easy place to live. Even a half-collapsed ruin would be preferable by far.
In addition, when designing a dungeon with humanoid inhabitants, merely think of what such enclaves (or their closest parallels) are or have been like in the real world, with humans, and essentially duplicate it, changing things as appropriate for a given race's abilities and culture (i.e., orcs may not be likely to have an infirmary, as they may feel the weak deserve only death and it is Gruumsh's business to decide who lives and dies, not theirs... and none of them likely know a damn thing about medicine, anyway).
Another thing to keep in mind about humanoids is that they are very likely to make their own "dungeons." Orcs, gnolls, bugbears, and the like are all quite capable of making their own crude fortresses and strongholds (largely with the labor of slaves), in which case the layout would be consciously designed to suit their needs. I imagine hobgoblins almost always living in some type of castle or fortified structure, as they are a militaristic race. When they can take an existing site, great. But they'd certainly be able to make their own as well.
Finally, what you may need to do is reconsider what you consider to be "realistic." In our world, if you see an abandoned building or a cave, you probably don't assume buried treasure and dangerous monsters lurk within. It can be tempting to assume the people of a fantasy setting would feel the same way; "Oh, look, it's just a cave." However, in a world such as the typical D&D setting, that's actually not realistic. People just know that dark places such as that attract strange and dangerous creatures, and it's bad to stick your nose into those kinds of places. At the same time, there are ruins all over the place, many of which continue to hold magic and valuables from forgotten times. These treasures and monsters are often in the same place, and people just expect that to be the norm.
I really enjoy reading opinions of people that take time to make solid comments, in a world where everyone is in a rush it is pleasant to see how people can take time to talk about what they love. In my personal experience I don't lose any opportunity to learn about medieval life and ancient tombs or cities. But what I can see in real life would be interesting to explore but too short to keep an adventure, however I remember an especific Dragon magazine (or was it Dungeon?) with an article about real world tombs and dungeons to explore. Sorry I don't remember the issue but if you look harder you can find it. The issue was from the Paizo age and it is offered as a PDF.
I can't begin to express my gratitude at reading all this. Your different opinions have widened my view on the subject and I'm bubbling with a few adventures waiting to be written and played.
I hope some other people will continue to give advice on the subject here (or that previous posters will elaborate), as I'm always willing to learn more.
I've two main ideas I would like developed :
- tell me which existing dungeons seem well-constructed and coherent to you (sunless citadell cited above is quite cool)
- tell me your best boss ideas, by boss, I mean the authority which has developed the dungeon and the main critter to battle too (the example above was a beholder)
I've two main ideas I would like developed :
- tell me which existing dungeons seem well-constructed and coherent to you (sunless citadell cited above is quite cool)
- tell me your best boss ideas, by boss, I mean the authority which has developed the dungeon and the main critter to battle too (the example above was a beholder)
Well, "dungeon" itself is a pretty vague term. Do you mean "enclosed adventure site with various rooms and chambers" or something closer to the iconic "dungeon" (i.e., underground, ancient, remote, etc.)
Off the top of my head, no published dungeons really jump to my mind as exemplars of good design. As another poster mentioned, printed adventure's dungeons always seem to have something quirky about them. I didn't mind the Whispering Cairn at the start of the Age of Worms AP (Dungeon 124), but the complex that soon followed it in Three Faces of Evil struck me as unnatural and forced. Which isn't to say it wasn't fun, but looking at it from a logical standpoint, it had some big flaws. I really enjoyed the glassworks in Pathfinder #1, but thought the ruins underneath likewise seemed awkward. They were supposed to be the ancient remains of a structure called a Hellfire Flume, which says to me that the dungeon should have been designed with that in mind, and then the inhabitants forced to find their niche within it. Instead, it seemed like the dungeon was designed with its current inhabitants and the likely actions of the PCs in mind, and the backstory was almost "tacked on."
I had a similar problem with Sins of the Saviors in Pathfinder #5. I suppose my real issue with things like Sins of the Saviors and even the Three Faces of Evil is that they don't provide a working ecology. The adventures seem to assume that the villains are going to sit in their designated rooms and wait for the adventurers indefinitely.
Case in point: in the halls of wrath in SotS, ten thousand years worth of human generations have been born, lived, and died in... seven rooms? I know the Runeforge's magic keeps them healthy and everything, but it still strains my suspension of disbelief. If the dungeon had repeatedly described the inhabitants as being b+%$$!# insane from living in such a way for so long, it would have been better. But the whole dungeon was kind of like that.
Same thing with Three Faces of Evil. The adventure really made no mention of how the three dungeon complexes interacted. They're all part of the same cult, right? But there was no mention of how frequently they all met, what they did on a day-to-day basis, how the complex as a whole would respond if the PCs wiped out all or part of one of the three wings but then had to retreat to rest.... It felt like a big box of bad guys there for the PCs to fight, rather than a legitimate, functioning compound of sentient creatures.
Well, that was kind of rambling, and mainly talked about dungeons that I didn't like the design of, but I hope it helped.
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I agree with the two of them. Figure out Who is behind everything, the Why for his actions, What he's doing, and the Where; then all the rest just kinda falls into place.
Think of the whole thing like the D&D equivilient of MadLibs, albeit less random. Okay, so MadLibs is a bad analogy. A better one would be a puzzle. Most people work to find the corner pieces first, then fill in from there.
Come to think of it, my adventures do seem like a bunch of mad libs all thrown togehter..."It'd be awesome if the players encountered a(n) _____ after going through the room where the _____ shoved a _____ into a _____, activating a _____ which caused a PC to trip and fall into the _____."
Incidently, the best dungeon I ran (and by best, I mean the one my players loved most) was a mine being dug out by Insane cultists (oh those wacky insane cultists). The players were investigating earthquakes in the area and stumbled upon the mine (I had just got back from a work term at a mine, so mining was fresh in my mind) which led to a long buried temple, the dungeon proper if you will. A couple of chapels with animated flying furniture and a bunch of wierd drawings of tentacles led them to know ti was dedicated to the Far Realm. And since it was from the Far Realm, I could get away with anything. It's not supposed to make sense. The end encounter was a Vampire with some kind of template dedicated to the far realm, and a couple of will-o-wisps, which I just called the floating lights. Throwing the room into total darkness and splitting up the party helped make it more challenging. Other encounters in the mine were mostly of the cultist veriety, though i did throw in a couple of "rock dragons", which were just bullettes with a differant name. Having been underground, I recognized that there wouldn't be any animals down there. and most things in the temple would have died out.
I've two main ideas I would like developed :
- tell me which existing dungeons seem well-constructed and coherent to you (sunless citadell cited above is quite cool)
- tell me your best boss ideas, by boss, I mean the authority which has developed the dungeon and the main critter to battle too (the example above was a beholder)
And to answer your first question, I rather like the Sunless Citadel, and Dungeon Crawl Classics have quite a few good ones, IMO. And the first couple of adventures in AoW are mostly dungeon crawls, aren't they? I remember really liking those. Though I suppose what defines a dungeon is sort of up for debate. Does it have to be underground? can it just be a network of caves? what if it was a building and is now underground? what if the same building is above ground?
Confusing.|
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As just mentioned, there are plenty of real world places that are fodder for 'dungeons,' such as the subterranean Turkish (well, pre-Turkish) city of Catal Hayuk (no relation to Salma Hayuk, although she's also a worthy subject for a documentary).
In a world with dwarves (and derro, drow, grimlocks, mind flayers, svirfneblin, duergar, etc.) abandoned subterranean communities and complexes (and not-so-abandoned complexes...) will be all the more commonplace. Even the existence of evil dieties, whose cults may find it prudent to conceal their gathering places, will add to the fun. Depending on the race constructing the complex, the design might have certain features. A Dwarven community might deliberately craft adjoining tunnels to be only a few inches over five feet, to hamper any unwelcome guests from the surface world. A Mind Flayer community might include a larger common area, and some mysterious holes in the ceiling, with no way to get to them, that lead up to their private quarters (since they can all levitate). A Kobold community might have 'squeezeways' into their snug, warm 'private rooms' that are only comfortable for size Tiny visitors, requiring size Small ones to 'squeeze,' and being pretty much impassable to Medium sized intruders. An ancient Duergar enclave might be littered with oddly-cut crystals that once floated in midair, lighting the chambers, but have since faded and dropped to the ground, leaving no clue as to their original function, retaining only a faint ghost of the psionic energies that once empowered them.
My first ever Forgotten Realms game pitted the party up against a tribe of Kobolds who had infested a long-abandoned elven temple complex in the woods of Myth Drannor, a pre-Dark Elf / Elf split temple to the goddess-who-would-later-be-named Lolth... Kobolds used ropes and vines to create 'webbing' in the larger chamber, and scampered up the rope-draped walls to hang out in the ropes above, hurling missiles down at the intruders (and deeply regretting that design choice, which worked really, really well against animals blundering into their lair, but not so well when confronted with intelligent foes equipped with burning oil.). The 'dungeon' had a reason to exist (ancient temple), to be concealed (temple to an unpopular / reclusive deity) and to be infested with monsters (kobolds needed a home!).
A pair of ghouls might have a massive decades-old warren of tunnels undermining the local graveyard, and dig new tunnels to connect with any fresh grave, so that they can get at the 'fresh meat.' Fifty years later, adventurers might end up infiltrating a subterranean warren beneath the town to track down the wererat who lives there currently, the ghouls having long since been eradicated by a traveling priest.
A city that has been conquered at some point in it's history might well have had a 'resistance movement' that met in basements, and constructed tunnels to connect various basements together, to allow them to smuggle people past the oppressors. A hundred years later, only the Rogue's Guild know of the 'underground highway,' and they don't use it to smuggle slaves to freedom or resistance fighters to safehouses...
A city could, particularly in a game-world where elves and dwarves may have been building cities *millenia* before humans arrived in an area, have an entire city built under it, sort of like something from the Beauty & the Beast TV show or Midian, from the movie Nightbreed. An entire underclass could live in this city, perhaps being subjugated by crime-lords of different races. An urban metropolis might acknowledge 'the goblin problem' and have all-but forgotten that the old Dwarven mines they built over centuries ago make a perfect nesting ground for the little blighters, and be completely unaware that the goblins have been organized over the last two decades into a spy / beggars / thieves guild like no other by a mysterious masked figure who runs much of the crime in the old city during the day, through a combination of mastery of the human thieves guild, dominion over the goblin 'pests' and his bureaucratic and political shenanigans as High Councilwoman Vatine's 'companion.' Even if someone were to learn of his secret life, and survive, they still would never guess that he's not human, and can call upon darker allies still...