One of my PC, a sorcerer, in becoming sorcerer lvl 4 which to learn the spell "detect thoughts" and in reading the description, I'm not sure to understand really what he would be able to learn in the mind of the people?
In fact, if i understand the use, he can cast this spell behind a door for example, to know how much persons are in this room? or he can cast it whereas he's already in this room?
For beginning, he can use it on one person or on a geographical area (60 feet)?
Round 1, he learns if there is "thinking person" in a room?
round 2, the number of people? and the level of intelligence?
But what does it mean the round 3? Is the caster able to read in the mind of the person?
For example, if a caster casts this spell of Ileosa or Sabina, he can read in her mind?
Can you help me please?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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That sums up the spell pretty well. I've often used it through a door to check if anything thinking is on the other side (and if they were planning an ambush, for example.)
As for a 4th level character using it on Ileosa or Sabina, that could be a very bad idea. For one thing, the 3rd round effect of actually reading surface thoughts gives a saving throw, and that allows the target to know they're being targeted with a spell. That's not a good idea to let a queen or other powerful person know you're doing that - at 4th level you'll find yourself imprisoned or dead fast, even from a non-evil ruler.
As for the plot of the adventure path, it's not at all unreasonable to say that at least Queen Ileosa has some form of mental protection, either as part of the crown of fangs (even if that's not in it's listed powers in the final part), or through a separate item. Sabina can be handled eaiser, simply by deciding that her surface thoughts are along the lines of "I'm keeping my eye on these adventurers to make sure they don't threaten the queen." That's what a bodyguard should be thinking, even if they know more is going on, they aren't thinking about it while actively bodyguarding. Alternatively, you could have her thinking that she hopes the queen finished with the PCs soon, so they can get back to the royal bedroom.
I've often used it through a door to check if anything thinking is on the other side (and if they were planning an ambush, for example.)
As for a 4th level character using it on Ileosa or Sabina, that could be a very bad idea.
In fact i'm not sure if it's that he would wish to do it but i suppose that he wants to look at a person and wants to know what it thinks. But I' m not to sure that some secrets would be able to be detected and revealed!
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Sempai33,
You should remember that the detect thoughts and read thoughts spells only detect surface thoughts. Like many things in this game, the meaning of that term is open to interpretation. However, the simplest meaning is what a person is thinking of at the moment the caster is looking into their mind.
As Joel has said, it would not be wise for a character to probe Ileosa's mind. The risk of the Queen, or even Sabina, figuring out what's going on is too great at 4th level.
As the PC gains power or if he uses the spell on weaker foes, I would not allow him to learn anything that ruins the story. There are certainly things you can say an NPC is thinking about that will not give away critical plot points. You could also use it as an opportunity to give out a clue, if the characters need it.
A spell that might work to reveal the kinds of secrets you're talking about would be probe thoughts, which actually states that it can be used to access all of the target's knowledge.
In general, I see detect thoughts revealing information like that most often available to Counselor Deana Troy, from Star Trek: TNG--provide a vague sense of current mental and emotional state with specific details relating only to the immediate environment or situation. That should provide enough useful information without giving too much away, yet still gives you room to throw in a clue or other detail that will be explained later in the campaign.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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BTW, the detect thoughts rocks in combat. I've always allowed it to let the caster know on their initiative turn what the target is planning on doing on their next action. Very useful vs. spellcasters and/or enemy leaders - if you know that they're planning on fireballing the building you're hiding out in for instance, you have time to get out the back door (and depending on the initiative order, tell your friends to get out also), and then let the spellcaster waste their fireball on the building you just left, etc.
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Contributor
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BTW, the detect thoughts rocks in combat. I've always allowed it to let the caster know on their initiative turn what the target is planning on doing on their next action.
That's a great idea. Another novel use for a spell that I've rarely seen people take outside of campaigns focused on "social" situations.
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BTW, the detect thoughts rocks in combat. I've always allowed it to let the caster know on their initiative turn what the target is planning on doing on their next action. Very useful vs. spellcasters and/or enemy leaders - if you know that they're planning on fireballing the building you're hiding out in for instance, you have time to get out the back door (and depending on the initiative order, tell your friends to get out also), and then let the spellcaster waste their fireball on the building you just left, etc.
Wouldn't you have to focus on them for 3 rounds to get the surface thoughts?
To me, it seems just as useful as Detect Magic to find the invisible person. Sure, you can tell if there's an aura and what kind, but not exactly narrow it down until round 3.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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BTW, the detect thoughts rocks in combat. I've always allowed it to let the caster know on their initiative turn what the target is planning on doing on their next action. Very useful vs. spellcasters and/or enemy leaders - if you know that they're planning on fireballing the building you're hiding out in for instance, you have time to get out the back door (and depending on the initiative order, tell your friends to get out also), and then let the spellcaster waste their fireball on the building you just left, etc.Wouldn't you have to focus on them for 3 rounds to get the surface thoughts?
To me, it seems just as useful as Detect Magic to find the invisible person. Sure, you can tell if there's an aura and what kind, but not exactly narrow it down until round 3.
Yes, very true, you do need the 3rd and subsequent rounds to get the actual thoughts. The example I gave was from actual play, and we had hidden out in a farmhouse when we saw a patrol in the distance. When they came close, I cast detect thoughts on the leader, and knew when he was about to order their wizard to fireball us out of there. The 3 rounds went by easily during a brief and tense negotiation.
However, pretty much anytime you're planning an ambush, or starting an encounter with conversation, it's not too hard to set up the 3 rounds of detect thoughts by the time the fighting starts.
However, pretty much anytime you're planning an ambush, or starting an encounter with conversation, it's not too hard to set up the 3 rounds of detect thoughts by the time the fighting starts.
Cause of the 3 rounds need to read minds, at each round, doesn't the caster need to make a spellcraft DC, in order to know if he's still concentrate during the next round?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Cause of the 3 rounds need to read minds, at each round, doesn't the caster need to make a spellcraft DC, in order to know if he's still concentrate during the next round?
However, pretty much anytime you're planning an ambush, or starting an encounter with conversation, it's not too hard to set up the 3 rounds of detect thoughts by the time the fighting starts.
He would need to make a concentration check each round if he takes damage from an attack, but if you set up the 3 rounds before combat you can concentrate without a check.
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Contributor
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He would need to make a concentration check each round if he takes damage from an attack, but if you set up the 3 rounds before combat you can concentrate without a check.
Wow. That's a nuance of the new rules I hadn't noticed. Old Concentration required a check to maintain concentration on an active spell. But you're right, Joel...no mention of maintaining concentration of an active spell under the new Spellcraft rules. Good eye!
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He would need to make a concentration check each round if he takes damage from an attack, but if you set up the 3 rounds before combat you can concentrate without a check.Wow. That's a nuance of the new rules I hadn't noticed. Old Concentration required a check to maintain concentration on an active spell. But you're right, Joel...no mention of maintaining concentration of an active spell under the new Spellcraft rules. Good eye!
There was no check needed when it was just Concentration either. Just when you take damage while using it.
I can't remember when you had to make checks every round (or whatever) on a spell that required Concentration to hold onto, especially if you could hold onto it indefinitely with concentration. You'd never stop rolling! :)
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There was no check needed when it was just Concentration either. Just when you take damage while using it.
You're right. That's what I meant to say. The difference is that maintaining concentration on a spell isn't mentioned at all in the Pathfinder version of Spelcraft.
With Sabina, I'd let it depend on whether it's the player's "thing." For example, it really stinks when you play an enchanter or an illusionist and the DM decides that using those spells to work the party around the encounter is cheating and unfun and railroads you right back into it. Often, they don't even know that they're doing it. But the player knows that their bread and butter shtick is never going to be mission-critical, whether they blame the DM or themselves is another matter.
So, if this player plays a cunning mage, a diviner or just a thinking person's mage, I'd let the player get more information than they normally would if they were playing a blaster or a save or suck spammer.
You're right. That's what I meant to say. The difference is that maintaining concentration on a spell isn't mentioned at all in the Pathfinder version of Spelcraft.
In fact, even if you're not taking dammage, according to the situation, you can make a concentration check in order to maintain the spell, like during a fight, the caster uses ghoul touch, if he failed in his touch attack, he can decided to make a concentration (for Pathfinder, a spellcraft) check to use it during the next round (according to me and in the way I make it play).