Hi folks,
I run an Oriental/Adventures-style 3.5 campaign and I've reached a point where I'd really like an invading army to attack a town the PCs are hiding out in. Being that they are "good-guys" they will help with the defense and get drawn into a larger battle. The problem is my otherwise-filly-fuctional brain only comes up with really clunky and uber-slow mecanics which will take half the night to explane and the other hjalf for us all to get sick of the damn things and I evolve into a horrid slog-fest whish is just regular combat only less fun. Usually I can wing it just fine but for some reason this is defeating me.
I remember L5R did something with this a few editions ago, but I only payed it once and don't have the books and it's another system with a skill (or something.. battle wasn't it?) that's not really in the game and I don't want to retcon in and I'm not feeling confident in my almost-decade-old-half-memories to wing it from what I remember and... get the picture?
If someone else can point me to a decent book or home-brew with a reasonably workable mass combat system for 3.5, I'd really apreciate it.
Thanx
R
If someone else can point me to a decent book or home-brew with a reasonably workable mass combat system for 3.5, I'd really apreciate it.Thanx
R
Well, I've had mixed results with Cry Havoc by Malhavoc Press. It is Open Content and designed for 3.5, which is nice. And you can use it to pit armies against one another or against single opponents (if you have PCs who happen to want to take on entire army units single-handedly). It does take some getting used to. It is not for the meek and I highly recommend practicing with the rules before the "real deal".
Also -- the fewer units you have on the field the better. Don't try to re-fight Helm's Deep for your first go'round.
CJ
[Off Topic]
I run an Oriental/Adventures-style 3.5 campaign
R, I've been running a very heavily Oriental Adventures-style 3.5 campaign for the last 18-months. If you want to swap some NPC's some time contact me off list at thelesuit aht hotmail dhot cohm.
CJ
How's it do with naval battles?
How's it do with naval battles?
It doesn't.
I haven't found a good system for d20 naval battles. Most "sea" supplements I've found (and I have purchased most of them) are written by folks who have never actually been at sea or studied maritime history.
If anyone knows of a good system for naval battles, please let me know.
CJ
Heroes of Battle has some nice things in it for mass combat.
t takes a look at all the little things that go into a huge battle and breaks them down. It has rules for army morales and bonuses. Rules for Rallying and having Battle Standards. It also gives ideas for missions PC's can do in the midst of battles and just prior to battles. I believe it also has rules for catapults and other siege engines.
The DMG2 also has rules on mobs and how they work in combat which is handy for PC's facing large groups whether they be an organized battle unit or a mob of pissed off kobolds.
How's it do with naval battles?
Stormwrack has all the info you could ever need for naval battles including ship speeds and manueverability, how much damage parts of a ship can take, rules for fighting on ships in all sorts of weather and seas, Etc.
Stormwrack has all the info you could ever need for naval battles including ship speeds and manueverability, how much damage parts of a ship can take, rules for fighting on ships in all sorts of weather and seas, Etc.How's it do with naval battles?
I've got that source. It's great for one on one battles, but has virtually nothing for a convoy or an armada.
Stormwrack has all the info you could ever need for naval battles including ship speeds and manueverability, how much damage parts of a ship can take, rules for fighting on ships in all sorts of weather and seas, Etc.How's it do with naval battles?
I've got that source. It's great for one on one battles, but has virtually nothing for a convoy or an armada.
Hrrrmmm really? Can the rules there be adjusted for groups with a little creative thinking? Other than that I got zip.
Stormwrack has all the info you could ever need for naval battles including ship speeds and manueverability, how much damage parts of a ship can take, rules for fighting on ships in all sorts of weather and seas, Etc.How's it do with naval battles?
Unfortunately Stormwrack isn't Open Content.
CJ
For large scale battles I use the mob rules. I treat 50 enemies as a single Gargantuan 30 hd humanoid/swarm that does 5d6 damage to anyone whose square it occupies. Each mob is CR 8. The full mob rules can be found in the DMG 2 or in an issue of Dragon Magazine (one of the Shackled City adventures featured their first apppearance).
So if the PCs are engaged in a fight against 500 foes there are 10 enemy mobs. If they're supported by 200 allies there are 4 friendly mobs. If there are more enemies than that I'm likely to describe that narratively and simply have the battle hinge on what happens in the PCs portion of the fight.
I also use the rules for siege weapons and arrow volleys from Heroes of Battle.
Stormwrack has all the info you could ever need for naval battles including ship speeds and manueverability, how much damage parts of a ship can take, rules for fighting on ships in all sorts of weather and seas, Etc.How's it do with naval battles?
Unfortunately Stormwrack isn't Open Content.
CJ
Why does it have to be open content to use in ones own game? We're not talking about Paizo converting it here. Just looking for reference material for game.
For large scale battles I use the mob rules. I treat 50 enemies as a single Gargantuan 30 hd humanoid/swarm that does 5d6 damage to anyone whose square it occupies. Each mob is CR 8. The full mob rules can be found in the DMG 2 or in an issue of Dragon Magazine (one of the Shackled City adventures featured their first apppearance).
So if the PCs are engaged in a fight against 500 foes there are 10 enemy mobs. If they're supported by 200 allies there are 4 friendly mobs. If there are more enemies than that I'm likely to describe that narratively and simply have the battle hinge on what happens in the PCs portion of the fight.
I also use the rules for siege weapons and arrow volleys from Heroes of Battle.
That's a pretty sweet way to handle it. Good thinking.
Thanks, its worked well for me so far. And I've created a bunch of house rules to make it work a bit better.
Some people object to the level of abstraction that the mob rules creatue, specifically things like fireballs not killing everyone in the mob that they hit. But my players quickly figured out that the smart move was to use area effects the same way as normal. Don't center it on a mob, try to hit as many mobs as possible with the fireball. Since they take +50% damage from area effects the results can be quite impressive.
The problem is that the army unit's best tactic against a lone PC is to sheathe its weapons and grapple the lone PC: Grapple check +34 for a mob of commoners. Grapple in round one, move into space, and then succeed on future grapple checks to do damage to the PC. That's a great model for ACTUAL mobs, but not so great for disciplined military units, which become less threatening than untrained yokels.
That's really nothing more than a way of describing the fight. Sure an undisciplined mob is described as pulling the character down in a grapple, but a disciplined military unit is described as having pinned down the character with shields and polearms. It's still a grapple but described differently. And the unit still does its normal weapon damage each round in addition to grapple damage (which is also 5d6) so you can really describe it as them overwhelming the guy they've grappled (who is now taking 10d6 damage per round).
I actually give military units certain advantages over standard mobs. They do 5d8 damage instead of 5d6, they can fire arrow volleys (per Heroes of Battle), higher AC due to armor, higher Con (more hp), the outer edge is considered to have reach weapons (so AoOs are possible), and so on.
It is definitely true though that your players need to be comfortable with a higher level of abstraction to use this system. But then most larger scale systems are more abstracted so there you go.
Well, okay, that could work.
But it would mean that if you wanted to do a band of heroes holding the pass against the army, you'd need to make sure that the Fighter had a ring of Freedom of Movement. I really don't like the idea that even a 20th level Fighter would need a magical doohickey to even have a chance against just one military unit. It ought to be based on his skill, you know?
Also, this approach completely revises how Tome of Battle depicts "leader" monsters in war zones. Basically, it assumes that the PCs are needed to deal with certain opponents that a unit of ordinary soldiers couldn't. But a mob template on a military unit means that the unit could hold its own by grappling against a rampaging single :
Stone Giant (+22) [Makes a difference for Pathfinder #4!]
Hill Giant (+23)
Frost Giant (+23)
Fire Giant (+25)
Ogre Barbarian 4 (+19)
But you have to keep in mind that in 3.5 the mob/military unit still provokes an AoO for the grapple attempt (they don't have improved grab) and they have a very low armor class. If they take any damage from the AoO the grapple attempt automatically fails.
In pathfinder they have a lower grapple bonus (due to the size change),and if the AoO hits, the damage is added to the Combat Maneuver DC for the grapple.
Plus mob/military units tend to have much lower strengths than a typical Gargantuan CR 8 monster.
So in either case the grapple has a much lower chance of success than against a normal monster of the unit's size. And in Pathfinder being grappled only provides a -2 penalty to melee attacks.
I'm not sure why you think the fighter needs a ring of freedom of movement to succeed. My 8th level players (including the fighter/bard and the barbarian) have little trouble making hash out of mobs.
I should mention that another of my mob house rules grants a +1d6 cumulative damage bonus for each of the following feats: cleave, great cleave, combat reflexes, and +2d6 for whirlwind attack. That is because the mob mechanic robs these feats of the mechanics that normally activate them. So this is how I compensate the players for that change. So a barbarian with Great Cleave gets +2d6 on every attack against a mob since he'll never trigger a cleave attack.
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If someone else can point me to a decent book or home-brew with a reasonably workable mass combat system for 3.5, I'd really apreciate it.
Thanx
R
I'd recommmend the Book of War by Eden Studios. It is D20 3.5, and I found it was pretty easy to understand. it also includes examples, and rules for ruling provinces.
There are other books on the subject, (Empire from AEG, Cry Havoc, something from Mongoose too) they look good, but seem too complicated for my tastes.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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It's been stated elsewhere on the boards as a nice house rule for use against Mobs that Cleave, Great Cleave, and Whirlwind Attack add +1d6 each to your weapon damage against the mob.
Convoys and Armadas of ships really break the line between roleplaying and strategy games. At some point you should just bust out the Risk rules. Otherwise use the PC's actions in key portions of any battle to sway the tide (i.e. Victory Point mechanic).
In pathfinder they have a lower grapple bonus (due to the size change),and if the AoO hits, the damage is added to the Combat Maneuver DC for the grapple.
Plus mob/military units tend to have much lower strengths than a typical Gargantuan CR 8 monster.
So in either case the grapple has a much lower chance of success than against a normal monster of the unit's size. And in Pathfinder being grappled only provides a -2 penalty to melee attacks.
I'm not sure why you think the fighter needs a ring of freedom of movement to succeed. My 8th level players (including the fighter/bard and the barbarian) have little trouble making hash out of mobs.
For the first three paragraphs, I think that needs to be play tested. It might be the 3.P solves this particular issue due to the changes in grapple. Perhaps someone running through CotCT?
The comment about the Fighter was based on my experiences with grapple in 3e, as it tended to be pretty hard to stop. Against dumb opponents where a grapple would win, I've had the military unit deliberately draw an AoO in the movement phase, so that during the SA, the grapple would continue unimpeded, as even Combat Reflexes doesn't give you a second shot at the same target.
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RI'd recommmend the Book of War by Eden Studios. It is D20 3.5, and I found it was pretty easy to understand. it also includes examples, and rules for ruling provinces.
I made an error in this earlier post : the exact title of the book is "Fields of Blood : the Book of War"
I second this recommendation. Fields of Blood is an excellent resource for mass combat under the 3.5 rules. It also has some nice rules for ruling kingdoms reminiscent of the domain rules from the 2e Birthright campaign setting.
Also, a lot of the material in this book is Open Game Content.
I really like and use often, Heroes of Battle, for my battlefield tactics. My current campaign has an overlay of war which the PCs find themselves in on occasion. I do not believe this is an OC book but I could be wrong.
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Stormwrack has all the info you could ever need for naval battles including ship speeds and manueverability, how much damage parts of a ship can take, rules for fighting on ships in all sorts of weather and seas, Etc.How's it do with naval battles?
I've got that source. It's great for one on one battles, but has virtually nothing for a convoy or an armada.
Look at the Star Wars RPG Revised Core Rules -- it shows how to group a few starships together to form "wings" or "squadron" or whatever... that could be easily adapted to the Stormwrack system, as the rules to hit ships, damage ships, etc. are very similar. The main difference is that the Stormwrack system does not give "force shields" to their ships (but a creative mage could create such a spell, so as to not have damage apply straight to "hull" hit points... ;) )
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Hi folks,
I run an Oriental/Adventures-style 3.5 campaign and I've reached a point where I'd really like an invading army to attack a town the PCs are hiding out in...If someone else can point me to a decent book or home-brew with a reasonably workable mass combat system for 3.5, I'd really apreciate it.
Thanx
R
Kriegsspiel - Its free, no written rules - although you can find them on certain websites for early "written rules" versions of the game, and focuses on three things: 1- Friction of War, 2- Command and Communication, 3- Fog of War
Consider prevailing winds as your archers with fire arrows find their shots dropping into dry tinder houses rather than the enemy soldiers at the end of the street.
Consider that they are your soldiers retreating toward you and that you have failed to recognise them as friendly.
Hi folks,
I run an Oriental/Adventures-style 3.5 campaign and I've reached a point where I'd really like an invading army to attack a town the PCs are hiding out in. Being that they are "good-guys" they will help with the defense and get drawn into a larger battle. The problem is my otherwise-filly-fuctional brain only comes up with really clunky and uber-slow mecanics which will take half the night to explane and the other hjalf for us all to get sick of the damn things and I evolve into a horrid slog-fest whish is just regular combat only less fun. Usually I can wing it just fine but for some reason this is defeating me.
I remember L5R did something with this a few editions ago, but I only payed it once and don't have the books and it's another system with a skill (or something.. battle wasn't it?) that's not really in the game and I don't want to retcon in and I'm not feeling confident in my almost-decade-old-half-memories to wing it from what I remember and... get the picture?
If someone else can point me to a decent book or home-brew with a reasonably workable mass combat system for 3.5, I'd really apreciate it.
Thanx
R
Give Mass Combat system by Mongoose a try, it's bin included in a couple of books, Conan 'Mercenaries' book and the Fighter books. The system is a little abstract but made to deal with large bodies of troops in a simple and playable manner.
Each body of troops gets given a Military Cohesion number depending on Discipline etc. Battle rounds( half hour I believe) are dealt with by an opposed Military Tactics skill roll, modified by factors( outnumbered, archers, surprise and advantage(hills)) etc. The rolls are compared and the loser loses an amount off his Skill level based on the difference in the rolls.This continues till one sides MC reaches 0. The size reaching 0 breaks and collapses.
Generally simple but fun.
Green Ronin's Black Company campaign setting book has rules for mass combat. They look pretty cool, but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet. Probably will in the next couple of weeks.
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How's it do with naval battles?It doesn't.
I haven't found a good system for d20 naval battles. Most "sea" supplements I've found (and I have purchased most of them) are written by folks who have never actually been at sea or studied maritime history.
If anyone knows of a good system for naval battles, please let me know.
CJ
Check "Corsair" from Admant Entertainment, its complicated, but sounds fair, at least in navigation, taking the number of sailors as some kind of unit never convinced me, but the concept of HOW does naval combat works is good. ok its more about reinassance than medieval but it helps.
see Corsair
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i hate i hate when my posts erase themselves!!!!
ok... ok
sans repeat...
once a few years ago, my players where protecting a fortress and it was attacked by two packs of gnolls who wanted and accursed axe (giving great powers of command to gnoll 'heroes') which was laid next to the beer without realizing its potential...
easy rules:
1) every low fry is 1 hd gnoll or 8 hps
2) 1 captain of 3rd level with 20 hps for every 10 or 20 gnolls
3) 2 gnols heroes (each for a different pack, they where at odds) 9 level barbarian, 11 level druid.
4) since the PC where in higher ground and in clear terrain using pallisades (but not bigger than men and not as well prepared (hey they did them not me! they where in charge of the fortress!) they had about 3 rounds to laid as much arrows in their enemies as they could, in the 3rd round the gnolls would be ppouring over the poallisade
5) once inside the pallisade, at least 1 NPC guard will die per round (they had 10) and msot where trying to hide themsleves and use crossbows from defendable places
6) each PC will reeive per round his maximum attacks of opportunity plus 1
7) pc would be attacked as many times as gnolls survvied his AoO
8) players could decide what tactical movement they did, some just positioned to attack more or better, one was stupid enough to go and ry to protect the beer
9) when is the PC turn i gave them a little time to decide their actions if they decided nothing i jumped to the enxt player which made them feel the high pace and the deadly of the situation
10) sans repeat from point 6
tactics of gnolls, distract aand kill anyone while their leaders got the axe.. they battled between them too
tactics guards: hide and atact from defensive points, while protecting the workers and their families
tactics pcs (none existant, not my fault!)
what happened?
every round the pc battled for their lives, making piles of dead gnolls around them, the one protecting the beer was given a reflex roll to not be MASSACRED by the 9th level barbarian and his barbarian bodyguards which headed for the beer, i mean the axe, he passed it (his hcar was 6th level and the barbarian got a critical.. and almost every damge possible!)
the gnolls battled between themselves, one character distracting one enough sothe other could kill him, and in the distraction anothe rone took the axe and using the fly spell took off (but sinsce the axe did damage to good characters she oaid ofr it even if she took it away), at the end of the battle the gnolls seeing they had lost run away, leaving all but one character dying in the floor surrounded by piles od gnolls corpses...
in the end 2 more players arrived and helped route the surviving gnolls and saving those characters that where dying
ok they pc almost lost they characters... but that didn't stpped them for loving the session, they had a high paced battle full of chaos and acton, and they did win the day even if they were worried wabout losing their chars...
11) this works better if tou don't use battlmatts, just describe the situation if someone uses a wizard let him have the maximum effect of his spells, who knows it could be the last... in war life is uncertain, they might be better trianed, but the numbers bring anyone... that is what happened to 5 characters between 6 to 8 level against lots of 1 DH enemies... even if only one hits... the incoming rush would brign them down... and yes i had a defined number... and took it itno account they almost finished my 2 gnolls tribes :S
Montalve,
Thanks for suggesting Corsair. I purchased the pdf last night and I think it will be an excellent tool for my sea-faring campaign.
I'll be using Corsair's rules for ship combat and damage, ship repair, and ship customization.
I'll be using the mob rules from DMG II for boarding actions and shipboard battles (because I can't see how the PCs or monsters fit into Corsair's crew combat rules).
I'll be using the morale rules and arrow volley rules from Heroes of Battle.
And I'll be using the maneuverability rules from Stormwrack.
I have some details to work out to make all of these systems play nice together but I think the combination is going to be great for my campaign.