GSL to control the "glut" of products

[tadkil]

Always a pleasure to hear from Sam Weiss.

[tadkil]

crosswiredmind wrote:

tadkil wrote:

I think it hurts the consumer.

Absolutely. I think we will see a big change in the GSL during the next year as the publishers react and WotC catches flack for not supporting the community it created with the OGL.

That's really what I thought this post reflected. I saw it as an attempt tp justify the GSL's business logic and reduce the ire.

Shroomy set me straight though. This wasn't the brand manager, just an ex-employee.

Thanks Shroomy.

[vance]

Chef's Slaad wrote:

check out the PHB 3.5 credits page. He was brand manager at the time of publication. I'll have to flip through other books to get a precise date.

So that wasn't too long ago then. No worries, I have most of my actual 3.5 D&D stuff long since put up. Everything I actively use is linked up. :)

[alleynbard]

crosswiredmind wrote:

tadkil wrote:

I think it hurts the consumer.

Absolutely. I think we will see a big change in the GSL during the next year as the publishers react and WotC catches flack for not supporting the community it created with the OGL.

This is my hope as well. I would like to see the GSL become much more user friendly.

[vance]

alleynbard wrote:

This is my hope as well. I would like to see the GSL become much more user friendly.

Hard to say if they'll change it now. They have the right to, of course, but WotC (as a company) seems pretty invested in the GSL in an attempt to 'rebuild the brand' to suit their image. Remember, even the 'promised logo' changed from "d20 System" to "Dungeons and Dragons" recently.

Hard to imagine that they would change it to aid the very companies (and very products) that they seem to want to stamp out.

[alleynbard]

vance wrote:

alleynbard wrote:

This is my hope as well. I would like to see the GSL become much more user friendly.

Hard to say if they'll change it now. They have the right to, of course, but WotC (as a company) seems pretty invested in the GSL in an attempt to 'rebuild the brand' to suit their image. Remember, even the 'promised logo' changed from "d20 System" to "Dungeons and Dragons" recently.

Hard to imagine that they would change it to aid the very companies (and very products) that they seem to want to stamp out.

I'd like to hope they aren't trying to stamp anyone out. I'm not a Wizards fanboy by any stretch of the imagination, I judge each of their products on its own merits, but I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Even when I can admit that some of their behavior seems to run contrary to my hope. :)

But then again, I generally try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Just lately I have noticed my fuse has been a lot shorter. :/

[vance]

alleynbard wrote:

I'd like to hope they aren't trying to stamp anyone out.

Well, when even WotC employees (under alts) are saying things like "it's as if Lorraine's returned" ... I dunno. It's definately true that the last year has had a profound sea-change in WotC, and not a good one - as far as the community goes.

Unfortunately, I think this really has rubbed off on fans as well.

More... wrote:

But then again, I generally try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Just lately I have noticed my fuse has been a lot shorter. :/

Well, some people get near-religious about their hobbies and their fandoms (hence the term, really), but it has gotten far too personal for a lot of people. I think, sadly, it's just that there's a lot of negative to be had at the moment, regardless on how you feel about 4E in general.

The GSL, WotC's approach to it, and how it's being handled and accepted (or not, as the case may be) has been a series of contentions and negativity all around, unfortunately. And if what you enjoy and use to relax and have a good time is just pissing you off at the moment...

[crosswiredmind]

vance wrote:

crosswiredmind wrote:

b~@@#&!~. When d20 broke sales went crazy. All the companies were new and game stores could not predict what would sell and what would not. Now some of those stores are stuck with the crap that was left after the tide washed back out. This is not the fault of the store owners and to blame them is pure b~@@#&!~.

First, d20 Sales were LESS than 2nd edition. Second, just because game X does well doesn't mean all things related to Game X will do just as well. Any retailer that deserves to stay in business would know better. Saying "Well, they didn't know that 20 copies of Complete Guide to Drow Underwear wouldn't sell" doesn't wash. They shouldn't have BOUGHT all the stuff, and been far more conservative with expectations.

It's part of doing business. Who, prey tell, would be responsible OTHERWISE for retailers piling up rushed d20 crap sight unseen?

d20 sales less than 2nd ed? What? When 3e and d20 came along the sales at my FLGS went through the roof - they even bought new carpet.

Second - the d20 stuff started to flow so fast that retailers could not keep up with what was good and what was crap - you think the folks running these store have time to actually look at every game before they stock it? Seriously?

Dude - I guess I should simply ignore your posts because quite frankly your arguments seem to have no grounding in anything close to reality.

[vance]

crosswiredmind wrote:

d20 sales less than 2nd ed? What? When 3e and d20 came along the sales at my FLGS went through the roof - they even bought new carpet.

Bizzare.. but, yes. It's just that d20's sales hit largley within a small retail period rather than spread out over the course of a decade.

More... wrote:

Second - the d20 stuff started to flow so fast that retailers could not keep up with what was good and what was crap - you think the folks running these store have time to actually look at every game before they stock it? Seriously?

They don't NEED to. Every distributor will do a special order if needed, and any gaming store worth its salt will see what their customers are looking for.

More... wrote:

Dude - I guess I should simply ignore your posts because quite frankly your arguments seem to have no grounding in anything close to reality.

And now you're being a complete ass out of a religious need to defend WotC out of something that isn't even WoTc's doing. Have you ever run a game store? Ever help with the books? The ordering? Ever made a connection with a distributor? Ever actually find out about how the business works?

No. I'm sure you haven't. The simple truth is that a lot of game stores overbought d20 expecting a sustained super-high demand without heed to the quality, etc, that was coming out. When things crashed, they crashed hard. The guys who played it safe came out just fine.. others didn't. This is not a new concept, it's how markets work.

Ask any game shop that was around during the early 1990s how well their CCGs sales went during THAT craze? It was the same thing, M:TG created this huge 'tidal wave' of sales that all petered out within a year. Many game stores that wanted to 'rush to fill demand' did a quick major-influx of cash and stock, then got stuck with a LOT of dead stock after that. You can still find BOXES of card games from that time in many stores.

Just part of the business, and it's completely in the hands of the game shop - NOT the fault of the OGL.

[crosswiredmind]

vance wrote:

Have you ever run a game store? Ever help with the books? The ordering? Ever made a connection with a distributor? Ever actually find out about how the business works?

No. I'm sure you haven't.

Assistant manager, yes, yes, yes, yes. I am glad you are sure - wrong, but sure.

[vance]

crosswiredmind wrote:

Assistant manager, yes, yes, yes, yes. I am glad you are sure - wrong, but sure.

Then you must be a terrible one. The idea that somehow the OGL is responsible for the glut, when the glut repeats the EXACT SAME market trends that CCGs and even POGs did before it, shows profound ignorance of the market itself, and the retail role in it.

You may have been an 'assitant manager'.. but did you REALLY do anything like I mentioned? It would be insanely rare for that to happen at any Hobby or Game store, since most of them are just a couple of people running the she-bang.

[crosswiredmind]

vance wrote:

crosswiredmind wrote:

Assistant manager, yes, yes, yes, yes. I am glad you are sure - wrong, but sure.

Then you must be a terrible one. The idea that somehow the OGL is responsible for the glut, when the glut repeats the EXACT SAME market trends that CCGs and even POGs did before it, shows profound ignorance of the market itself, and the retail role in it.

You may have been an 'assitant manager'.. but did you REALLY do anything like I mentioned? It would be insanely rare for that to happen at any Hobby or Game store, since most of them are just a couple of people running the she-bang.

Wow. Personal insults. Even though the store has been in business continuously since 1975 and shows no signs of slowing down. I worked there pre-3e but being a regular I have been good friends with every manager since the earliest days til today. So to add to the personal insults thrown my way you also insulted 3 managers and 4 assistant managers that have had to deal with the OGL crap flood.

Vance, vance, vance - so even when presented with first hand experience of what it is like to run an FLGS you seem dead set on your own opinion.

Care to tell me how to run the company I own currently?

Sheesh.

[Stereofm]

i can't quite agree with you on everything :

Arcesilaus wrote:

It became a scavenger hunt of sorts to track down quality resources and was largely overwhelming to someone who didn't have the experience or time to research quality products.

quite possible.

Arcesilaus wrote:

Furthermore, the lack of supervision from WotC on these items led, largely, to the power creep that was so impressive towards the end of 3.5's publishing run. Even the official WotC splat-books crept up with the 3PP books, such that I groaned every time one of my players pulled out ANY spell, class, feat, race, or piece of equipment from a non-core book.

See here, you kind of self-defeat your argument : WOTC products are just are guilty as anybody else of upsetting game balance. In fact, in my experience, recent WOTC products are the worse offenders in that category. Especially when it relates to spells.

I have another theory here : since the emphasis was put so much on plain vanillia products, the only other option to attract players and sell the books was to creep up the power level.

And it worked. In the last years, I definitely noticed the arms race was up in LG everytime a new WOTC book came out.

On the contrary, while there was power creep in 3PP too, you at least had in your hands an original product on something not done before, and not generic supplement I : how to do CITY damage to your foes.

[crazy_cat]

Not sure if this has been said already as I've only skimmed the thread, but Charles Ryan is no longer working for WOTC.

He is now with Esdevium in the UK. They are RPG and games distributors - and are AFAIK the main WOTC and D&D distributors over here.

[CPEvilref]

vance wrote:

First, d20 Sales were LESS than 2nd edition. Second, just because game X does well doesn't mean all things related to Game X will do just as well. Any retailer that deserves to stay in business would know better. Saying "Well, they didn't know that 20 copies of Complete Guide to Drow Underwear wouldn't sell" doesn't wash. They shouldn't have BOUGHT all the stuff, and been far more conservative with expectations.

I think what Vance is saying is that OGL/d20 books (as in not those carrying the D&D brand) sold less than all of the 2nd edition D&D books.

Now, there's absolutely no way to check those numbers at all, but it's not a totally outlandish assertion to make. That said, the OGL (and 3.X) did expand the market in that more people were spending more money on roleplaying books.

If he means D20 including D&D branded books then I'm firmly convinced he's wrong.

On the point of WotC actively wanting other companies to fail, I don't agree. D&D represents (based on the C&GR figures which are highly unreliable but the closest thing to market analysis) about fifty percent of the industy. Obviously if D&D goes down, the market crashes and a lot (but not all) of game stores will likely go out of business. But so if the rest of the industry crashes the same thing will happen (it would just take more publishers going down than just one for this to occur).

WotC D&D books sold on an order of magnitude more than X d20 or OGL books, so the competition from X Fighters book (using it as a generic example) was negligible compared to, say, Sword and Fist (for all that I think that was a pretty sucky product and other companies did it better, though the Complete line was a step up in that regard for WotC). I also would be surprised if the majority of people who bought X company's 'fighters book' didn't also go on to buy the WotC one when it came out, sure some people might not have done. But here we're still on subjects that are the core part of D&D.

Using Mutants and Masterminds as an example, M&M was so divergent from D&D that you were playing a different game with a very similar rules system. Now, sure, people playing D&D might have stopped buying D&D to support Champions from HERO, or Capes, or a.n.other supers game, but their gateway into M&M was easier because they already knew the D20 system. D&D has always been the primary gateway into gaming for the majority of gamers, with White Wolf representing the second biggest route into Roleplaying games. The difference between D&D-> a.n.other game system/publisher and D&D->'OGL game that is not D&D' is that it's an easier route for a consumer to make and that, largely, is what I think lies behind some parts of the GSL.

Note, I personally wish the GSL was more of a safe harbour, I wish Paizo was supporting it, because while Paizo came late to OGL publishing, I've been very impressed with their adventures (though the Pathfinder system isn't for me as it's too similar to 3.x, I and my two gaming groups prefer 4e in that regard). It doesn't mean I won't pick up the adventures/flavour books and adapt/change as needed though.

It's fairly evident from posts on ENWorld and other places that there was a split at WotC regarding the value of the OGL and how open it should be for 4e. Some people probably wanted something similar, some might have wanted nothing of the sort (e.g. what 99% of the companies in the industry have, you don't see people yelling at Steve Jackson to open up Gurps, well you might but certainly not to this level). I think the GSL ended up being a compromise, and (this is purely a personal opinion based on working with contracts on a daily basis and seeing how a lawyer's interpretation of what I ask for and what I get can be widely at odds in terms of the appeal of the contract for the people it's being issued to) possibly even stronger on the wording than it could (or was maybe even wanted to) have been.

Ultimately though, so long as it doesn't degrade the market (reduce the number of outlets to buy books from/reduce the number of people coming into or staying in the industry) I don't think it's a 'bad' thing. It's D&D though, it's a game some of us have spent half or even the majority of our lives playing, so it's an emotive subject. While I don't agree with, for example, a lot of the points Vance has made on the subject (4e rulz btw :P) he's likely making them because he cares about the game.

System arguments have happened throughout the history of the industry. There was a very early letter to Dragon, back when Dragon was a mostly-independent magazine that published on the industry as a whole, asking if they didn't print any Runequest articles because Runequest was so much better than D&D. They're not going to go away, and in a year there will still be people saying that 4e is better than 3.x, or that the Storytelling system is better than ORE, or Fate is better than original Fudge. So long as people are putting out good books that keep the industry fresh and interesting, that's not a bad thing.

[CPEvilref]

crazy_cat wrote:

Not sure if this has been said already as I've only skimmed the thread, but Charles Ryan is no longer working for WOTC.

He is now with Esdevium in the UK. They are RPG and games distributors - and are AFAIK the main WOTC and D&D distributors over here.

They are, but they're also the main RPG distributors in general to the UK and most of Europe with, I think, only one other distributor of any size in the UK.

It's like saying he's with Alliance, who are the main distributors of D&D in the US for example (I think Alliance has the market share for distributors though I could be wrong)

[CPEvilref]

vance wrote:

Then you must be a terrible one.

That's a pretty insulting personal attack. The two of you do seem to constantly butt heads but even with that in mind that's way out of line.

[Dragnmoon]

tadkil wrote:

Your FGLS has been under tremendous pressure to operate as if it were Amazon. That is, they buy more product than they can move in an attempt to fill consumer need. If I can't get it at my local shop, I order it online. Most folks do the same thing and can do better on price also.

The most successful game shops I know burn their excess inventory through EBay or as an Amazon partner. This allows them to access to a much broader market. Game shops that stay in the traditional model and in their traditional market struggle and many have folded.

The marketplace has shifted. Go look at the strucuture of walmart.com or bestbuy.com to get a tangible feel for how major competitors position themselves for maximum inventory control and market position.

Said another way, the little guy is truly and royally screwed.

Noble Knight is a good example have a FGLS that took there over stock online and have done a great buisness with it. There are a few others.

[tadkil]

crazy_cat wrote:

Not sure if this has been said already as I've only skimmed the thread, but Charles Ryan is no longer working for WOTC.

He is now with Esdevium in the UK. They are RPG and games distributors - and are AFAIK the main WOTC and D&D distributors over here.

Yeah, it was noted after my post.

[Matthew Morris]

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

I can only hope that you're right here. Unfortunately 4E FR seems to indicate to me that Wizards of the Coast are occasionally impervious to flack.

I think being impervious to flack is an at will ability.

[Matthew Morris]

I've. Been trying to encourage my FLGS to be more net savy. I also try to support them with purchases. Green ronin, Catalyst, and Goodman Games all get bought there, as well as Reaper minis and impulse buys.

But yes, they can't compete with 50% off sales or book + pdf deals.

At the same time, they aren't psychic. They don't automatically know what will sell or not. Well they know I won't buy 4.x but that's me.

[Matthew Morris]

As to the arguement that WotC has spalt inflation because of 3pp, I find it laughable. I was unaware of Frost and Fur but was aware of Frostburn. I'm pretty sure WotC came up with the nightmare that is freezing touch all by themselves "let's hit the red dragon for 6d6 dex damage, no save!"

And do we blame 3pp for the crappy editing as well?

With WotC's support of 3.x ending, I can now officially give up hope of ever seeing errata or a broadening of the SRD. Who made frost and fur? I'll need to snag a copy. Anyome recommend replacements for other 'scape books?

[swirler]

vance wrote:

First, d20 Sales were LESS than 2nd edition.

which version of 2nd edition? Technically 3rd ed isn't the third. There were several revamps, and does first edition mean the original white box? or is that red box basic, or is 2nd ed just AD&D in general? That's all been very sketchy

[vance]

crosswiredmind wrote:

Vance, vance, vance - so even when presented with first hand experience of what it is like to run an FLGS you seem dead set on your own opinion.

Because, in all honesty, I believe you would say and do anything to defend WotC's position, no matter how off-the-way it may be, up to and including lying, cheating, and stealing.

Even if your experience is accurate, and that everything bad that ever happened to gaming was the fault of those nasty 3PPs and the OGL, that runs COUNTER to everything that I've experienced, and the reams of material put out my retailers and developers over the past decade.

[crosswiredmind]

vance wrote:

Because, in all honesty, I believe you would say and do anything to defend WotC's position, no matter how off-the-way it may be, up to and including lying, cheating, and stealing.

Wow. More insults.

Pure class sir. Pure class.

If you think that I am a WotC cheerleader you clearly have not been paying attention.

[Snorter]

vance wrote:

And now you're being a complete ass out of a religious need to defend WotC out of something that isn't even WoTc's doing. Have you ever run a game store? Ever help with the books? The ordering? Ever made a connection with a distributor? Ever actually find out about how the business works?

Oh dear. Oh dear, oh, dear, oh dear...

I cannot believe you just asked that.

Was that irony, sarcasm, a rhetorical question, or have you really never properly read his posts?

[swirler]

vance wrote:

crosswiredmind wrote:

Vance, vance, vance - so even when presented with first hand experience of what it is like to run an FLGS you seem dead set on your own opinion.

Because, in all honesty, I believe you would say and do anything to defend WotC's position, no matter how off-the-way it may be, up to and including lying, cheating, and stealing.

crosswiredmind wrote:

Yep - there is a glut of product on the market. One successful local chain owner calls it the smell of death. For the purposes of competitive research he travels to local shops in and around the Philadelphia area. He sees a whole lot of 3.0 and 3.5 OGL products clogging up shelves and bloating inventories. He said that one shop in NJ was selling 3e books for $1 per pound.

The trouble is that the OGL was far too open and the GSL is far too closed. The overreaction of WotC has understandable motivating factors but their solution has gone too far.

crosswiredmind wrote:

tadkil wrote:

I think it hurts the consumer.

Absolutely. I think we will see a big change in the GSL during the next year as the publishers react and WotC catches flack for not supporting the community it created with the OGL.

Just thought I'd repost these for clarity. I do not always agree with CWM and I'm not saying whether I do or not now, but what you had said Vance does not jive with what CWM said previously.

[vance]

crosswiredmind wrote:

If you think that I am a WotC cheerleader you clearly have not been paying attention.

It's either that, or you exist to be contrary to me personally. I could say "It's a nice day outside today," and you would IMMEDIATELY follow up with a post on how terrible it was outside, and how DARE I misconstrue 4E like that.

In short, you've been so blatantly antagonistic on ANYTHING that I've said, regardless of content, that I no longer take anything you say at face value. Indeed, I am honestly at the point that I'm going to assume that you're lying JUST for the sake of argument.

[Snorter]

vance wrote:

Because, in all honesty, I believe you would say and do anything to defend WotC's position, no matter how off-the-way it may be, up to and including lying, cheating, and stealing.

Right.

It's obvious you don't read CWM's posts, or selectively ignore his posts that criticise WotC or 4E, of which there are many.

And I think an apology is due.

[crosswiredmind]

vance wrote:

I am honestly at the point that I'm going to assume that you're lying JUST for the sake of argument.

Why do you keep calling me a liar?

[Nameless]

crosswiredmind wrote:

vance wrote:

I am honestly at the point that I'm going to assume that you're lying JUST for the sake of argument.

Why do you keep calling me a liar?

It's his shtick. He's got nothin' else. Ignore him!

[tadkil]

We need moderation. This has broken down.

Vance, you are being uncivil. CWM, you got pretty angry a few posts back.

However, CWM is trying to back off and be reasonable.

Vance, you are making direct personal attacks. This is unacceptable and not smurfy at all.

[Ixancoatl]

Dance, Puppets! Dance!

[vance]

tadkil wrote:

Vance, you are making direct personal attacks. This is unacceptable and not smurfy at all.

Let me know when you go after Sebastian, and Crosswired for theirs, and I'll be more receptive. I'm sorry, but the insane double-standard about 'attacks' in this forum are rediculous. Why should I even care if the rules only seem to apply one way?

I'm saying, flatly, that I can't take Crosswired at his word. He's shifted his positions constantly, he's outright said things which were easily disproven, he's made contradictory statements within the same posts numerous times. And, every time I've seen him do it, it's been to follow a thread just to be argumentative.

Now, he wants to say that 3PP and the OGL was killing gaming and the GSL will make things a perfect utopia again, except where it won't. Really, what position is he arguing? Or is he just arguing for the hell of it?

So, I'm calling a spade a 'spade'.

[tadkil]

vance wrote:

tadkil wrote:

Vance, you are making direct personal attacks. This is unacceptable and not smurfy at all.

Let me know when you go after Sebastian, and Crosswired for theirs, and I'll be more receptive. I'm sorry, but the insane double-standard about 'attacks' in this forum are rediculous. Why should I even care if the rules only seem to apply one way?

I'm saying, flatly, that I can't take Crosswired at his word. He's shifted his positions constantly, he's outright said things which were easily disproven, he's made contradictory statements within the same posts numerous times. And, every time I've seen him do it, it's been to follow a thread just to be argumentative.

Now, he wants to say that 3PP and the OGL was killing gaming and the GSL will make things a perfect utopia again, except where it won't. Really, what position is he arguing? Or is he just arguing for the hell of it?

So, I'm calling a spade a 'spade'.

I have done so with both of them. I just noted that CWM lost control also. Sebastian and I have engaged in post fu several times. I actually counted coup and got him to stand down once. Once.

So chill and be smurfy. Your letting this get to you and it is not productive.

[Benimoto]

vance wrote:

I'm saying, flatly, that I can't take Crosswired at his word. He's shifted his positions constantly, he's outright said things which were easily disproven, he's made contradictory statements within the same posts numerous times. And, every time I've seen him do it, it's been to follow a thread just to be argumentative.

Now, he wants to say that 3PP and the OGL was killing gaming and the GSL will make things a perfect utopia again, except where it won't. Really, what position is he arguing? Or is he just arguing for the hell of it?

So, I'm calling a spade a 'spade'.

Vance, I'm just a lurker chiming in, but seriously, stop it. I enjoy reading your posts on mechanics. They're insightful and intelligent. Which is why it's almost painful to see you go through this same routine again and again.

Nobody is here because they're a WoTC apologist or a liar or a lying WoTC apologist. Whenever you're about to accuse somebody of either of those things, just stop. You're wrong. It doesn't advance your argument, it doesn't make you look better. It just makes it clear that you'd rather resort to slander than engage with the person's argument.

An, to engage the thread here, what exactly is your argument? That game stores, in aggregate, failed because the owners were incompetent? That's not even an an argument. There's no question that game stores with incompetent owners fail. You don't even need to say it. But you can't justify the cause of a trend as mass incompetence.

[crosswiredmind]

Yes. I did lose my temper. But frankly I feel justified. I am being called a liar. My position on this issue is being completely misunderstood. And I am being accused of a great many things quite falsely.

Heck folks have even re-posted my points and I am still being accused of cheerleading for WotC. It's obvious to me that vance just feels the need to dump his bile with no real ability or desire to understand what is actually going on.

In fact he did the exact same thing to Sebastian - did not read his posts and totally twisted the situation into unrecognizable shape.

[vance]

Benimoto wrote:

An, to engage the thread here, what exactly is your argument? That game stores, in aggregate, failed because the owners were incompetent? That's not even an an argument. There's no question that game stores with incompetent owners fail. You don't even need to say it. But you can't justify the cause of a trend as mass incompetence.

The trend was a common sales mistake - see a fad and buy huge into it, then be SHOCKED when the fad fades for whatever reason. The OGL was part of it, but it really wasn't the biggest part. The end of the TSR-law-ninja climate, coupled with the relative ease of desktop publishing (and even printing) these days all collaborated in a saturated market for d20 fantasy goods.

While, of course, the glut is still there, and will likely be there for our granchildren, it's not a new glut - it's the same stuff from the early 3.0/d20 days. The 'drek' of 3PP goods have either just outright died, or moved onto PDF format only.

In that sense, the GSL is a solution without a problem behind it.

[delabarre]

What occurs to me is that what WOTC originally wanted out of the OGL was lots of campaign settings and adventure modules from 3PP, because at the time, campaign settings and adventure modules were thought to be very low-margin items.

So they cranked out lots of crunchy splatbooks (Complete Farmhand) that paid the bills, and got upset when 3PP noticed where the money was and started publishing their own crunchy books.

Then Ptolus and Shackled City (and probably others) hit it big, and suddenly WOTC is in the adventure path biz...(shakes head)

[vance]

swirler wrote:

Which version of 2nd edition? Technically 3rd ed isn't the third. There were several revamps, and does first edition mean the original white box? or is that red box basic, or is 2nd ed just AD&D in general? That's all been very sketchy

Well, all together, and the huge amount of product that was all associated, the total came out to something like over 20 million books sold from the games division. Granted, this was a LOT of material, a goodling number of years, and during the height of the RPG industry - where we are nowhere near approaching.

Remember, that era ALSO had AD&D in most bookstores, but also in toy stores as well as Sears, Targets, Ayr*Ways, and the like. There was no Warcraft, no Magic, no Guild Wars, and the internet was were college professors went to hash out Star Trek. The d20 was the king, baby.. followed by two d10s that you made percentiles with.

Very different age. I won't argue that d20 wasn't overall successful, but I couldn't BEGIN to compare it to the 1980s for AD&D 2nd as anywhere near equivolent. It would be foolish to do so.

[swirler]

vance wrote:

Well, all together, and the huge amount of product that was all associated, the total came out to something like over 20 million books sold from the games division. Granted, this was a LOT of material, a goodling number of years, and during the height of the RPG industry - where we are nowhere near approaching.

Remember, that era ALSO had AD&D in most bookstores, but also in toy stores as well as Sears, Targets, Ayr*Ways, and the like. There was no Warcraft, no Magic, no Guild Wars, and the internet was were college professors went to hash out Star Trek. The d20 was the king, baby.. followed by two d10s that you made percentiles with.

Very different age. I won't argue that d20 wasn't overall successful, but I couldn't BEGIN to compare it to the 1980s for AD&D 2nd as anywhere near equivolent. It would be foolish to do so.

do you think that had anything to do with the approach of TSR compared to how Hasbro runs Wotc? Sure TSR became this rotting carcass by the end, but it used to be a might beast. they had diversity in products and genres. Sure not everything was golden but there was alot of good stuff. Marvel Super hero's is still one of the better goes at a supers game.

[vance]

swirler wrote:

do you think that had anything to do with the approach of TSR compared to how Hasbro runs Wotc? Sure TSR became this rotting carcass by the end, but it used to be a might beast. they had diversity in products and genres. Sure not everything was golden but there was alot of good stuff. Marvel Super hero's is still one of the better goes at a supers game.

I think that TSR did a better job in a lot of ways, but did wind up crumbling under its own weight. As I said elsewhere, TSR's weakness wasn't that it had a lot of settings, it's that it had a lot of settings with a lot of books for EACH setting. Al Qadim, for example, had three large splat books, a complete guide, and EIGHT boxed sets, along with campaign book.

TSR also really starting throwing out 'crap' in larger and larger amounts. A lot wasn't playtested, much was poorly edited. Birthright, for all it's innovative ideas, was just an awful mess to try to sort out.

They also screwed up in that they stopped being a game company and became the Dungeons and Dragons company. Cleaning out a lot of well-performing but not 'branding' games really hurt them as well. Star Frontiers, Marvel Super Heroes, Gamma Dawn, etc, were staples for gamers, even if they weren't 'Dungeons and Dragons'.

That all said, though, the bigger reality is that WotC in 2008 just can't be TSR in 1988. Too much has changed, particularly in the area of interactive entertainment. There are indeed lessons WotC can learn from TSR, but it also needs to understand how the market is currently working - and I don't think they've QUITE got it.