Anybody have a good called shot system that works well with Pathfinder? I have my players asking for one.
Anybody have a good called shot system that works well with Pathfinder? I have my players asking for one.
My group just uses the Creature Size modifiers, and that page in the DMG about wound locations. A leg is small, an arm is tiny, etc.
Voila.
Not really what I was looking for. That looks like a flavourful critical hit system. What I was looking for was a system for "I shoot him between the eyes" or "I swing so as to chop off his hand". That sort of thing.
Don't forget to have reasonable bright creatures use it back at them. Better get those rules for one-handed wizards and one-legged rogues handy. :-).
slightly more serously....better ban true strike if you're looking at head shots for the kill.
Cheers
Mark
What sort of effects are you looking to have the called shot system produce? Short-term annoyances? Purely dramatic descriptions? Permanent injuries? This sort of thing will drastically change the tone of combat and will add a complicated range of damage calculations. Is it better to go for the vitals shot and take the -6 in exchange for double damage? What if I Power Attack? Maybe this is a good time to try True Strike and go for the crippling leg shot?
If you want something like real wound effects, try letting people trade off damage for inducing penalties or other benefits. For a quick example, you can trade in...
2 Points (removable via Bandaging): Leave an easily-identifiable nick in a conspicuous location. Provoke someone into striking at you next round even if there are better targets. Get a compliment on, or impress someone with, your combat skills. Get a free chance to indluge in some witty repartee. Get a chance to dwell on and describe your mighty blow.
3 Points (removable via Cure Light Wounds or an hours rest): Target will leave an easily-followed trail of blood if/when it leaves. Target suffers a -2 penalty on its next roll. Target gets an ugly scar unless magically healed. Give the next attacker a +2 bonus on his or her roll.
5 Points (Removable via Cure Moderate Wounds or a days rest): Inflict a point of attribute damage. Inflict a -1 penalty to attacks with a particular limb. Bruised and aching, target will be miserable tomorrow. Target must make a DC 15 Reflex check to avoid being knocked down. Get a free 5' step as you force an opening.
8 Points (Removable via Cure Serious Wounds or two days rest): Reduce their movement speed by 5' to a minimum of 1/2 normal. Target is bleeding, and will suffer 1d6 damage/round for the next three rounds. Target cannot speak clearly for 1-4 rounds, any spells with verbal components suffer a 20% failure chance. Slow mortal blow, target will die in 1d6+1 hours without treatment.
12 Points (Removable via Cure Critical Wounds or three days rest): Target loses next attack. Target must make a DC 15 Fort save or be stunned for one round. Inflict a -2 penalty to attacks with a particular limb. Massive bleeding, target will die in 1d4+2 minutes without treatment. Targets movement is reduced to 5' for 1d4+1 rounds and remains reduced by 5' until the wound heals.
Critical Hit/Give up all critical damage (Removable via Heal or a weeks rest): Carve your initials on a target. Injure a limb, inflicting a -3 penalty on any actions using it. Knock a shield or piece of armor loose (only needs to be healed if inherent to the target). Target loses next attack sequence. Target suffers 1d4 rounds of blindness. Target cannot use a chosen special attack, such as a breath weapon or gaze weapon, for 1-2 rounds. Target suffers 2 points of attribute damage to a chosen attribute. Target can no longer fly if it fails a DC 18 Fortitude save. Target cannot speak clearly, any spells with verbal components suffer a 20% failure chance. Target sterilized and stunned for one round, next round it gets a bonus attack against the perpetrator at its highest BAB.
Lets see now. This provides quite a few strategic choices - should we go for straight damage, try to cripple the target, goad it into attacking the unwounded fellow while the cleric works, or what? It shouldn’t (or at least it shouldn’t after a bit more balancing and, perhaps, a rule that limits “called shots” to one per round, or only allows them on a critical hit) make the characters too much more effective in combat since they’re giving up damage to get the special effects. It avoids all the complicated calculations involved in coming up with modifiers for all kinds of called shots on creatures with different body shapes. It doesn’t involve any actual permanent injuries, so we don’t have to deal with the characters being gradually whittled away, allows the monsters to spring a few surprises - such as getting that heavily-armored fighter in the leg and thus allowing them a chance to either split or outrun the group - and to inflict a few more interesting injuries.
Hm. I may have to polish up and expand the chart a bit and give it a try.
Just off the top of my head and without a lot of thinking on the matter, I would expect that the current combat maneuver system would work well for called shots. To make a called shot, just roll 1d20 + your character's Combat Maneuver Bonus versus 15 + the oppoent's CMB. A successful roll would allow the character to inflict a temporary status effect or the like.
You're aiming for the opponent's eyes? Fine, your sword cuts him right across the brow and he is now effectively blinded for 1d4 rounds as he tries to get the blood out of his eyes. Trying to hamstring that orc? A successful roll means he's limping and can only move at 1/2 his speed. The exact results would have to be decided by the GM, but I don't think it would be too hard to do.
On the other hand, if you're talking about trying to strike in the most vital spot in order to do the most amount of damage, then that's what every attack is trying to do. I don't think you need to make a called shot to try and cut someone's head off with a sword -- that's what you're trying to do with any attack that deals lethal damage, anyway.
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Just off the top of my head and without a lot of thinking on the matter, I would expect that the current combat maneuver system would work well for called shots. To make a called shot, just roll 1d20 + your character's Combat Maneuver Bonus versus 15 + the oppoent's CMB. A successful roll would allow the character to inflict a temporary status effect or the like.
You're aiming for the opponent's eyes? Fine, your sword cuts him right across the brow and he is now effectively blinded for 1d4 rounds as he tries to get the blood out of his eyes. Trying to hamstring that orc? A successful roll means he's limping and can only move at 1/2 his speed. The exact results would have to be decided by the GM, but I don't think it would be too hard to do.
On the other hand, if you're talking about trying to strike in the most vital spot in order to do the most amount of damage, then that's what every attack is trying to do. I don't think you need to make a called shot to try and cut someone's head off with a sword -- that's what you're trying to do with any attack that deals lethal damage, anyway.
I like something like this because it is so darn easy. No math or looking at charts.
I think CMB is the wrong tool for the job. The Special Size modifier is intended to counter one of 3.5's central targeting assumptions: big things have a harder time hitting small things. Using CMB for called shots, you will find that the largest creatures have a simple time hitting the smallest parts of the smallest creatures.
Everyone already knows the size mods pretty well, it's easy to just treat them as a modifier (since any system would result in some kind of modifier). Then just figure out if armor counts or not. In cases where it's unclear, let the armor grant cover.
If you want to rule that the part is damaged or unhurt, do a one-time damage test. A leg is small, so it has 1/2 the HP of the Medium Creature to which it belongs. A human eye, being a fine target, has 1/16th the HP.
The SRD Creature Size table has everything a GM needs to adjudicate these situations.
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Voila.Not really what I was looking for. That looks like a flavourful critical hit system. What I was looking for was a system for "I shoot him between the eyes" or "I swing so as to chop off his hand". That sort of thing.
My point was a subtle one, though probably way too subtle. :) In almost EVERY 3.5 game I've seen, Called Shots are a horrible idea.
Besides being a mess mechanically (it gets to the point where your characters should ALWAYS be going for the head and an insta-kill, or the legs for no movement, etc.) it completely negates the idea that your characters are already *trying* to do that. It's not like your guy is going into battle and trying to *avoid* the legs, the arms, the head, the heart, etc. Of course they're trying for them!
The reason I suggested the Critical Hit deck is that Crits, as they are, are already the best 'mechanic' in game to describe called shots, as it were. Certainly they aren't 'called' but it's representing a key blow to the opponent. With said deck, you could easily replace some cards with more 'body location' effects. It'd be a bit random, but would probably replicate a 'called shot' system better than any normal system could.
Sorry if I came across as a bit snarky, but called shots, in my experience, never work. If you make the penalty to hit too low, everyone does them. If you make it too high, no one does them. And no matter what, if they exist, the question arises of what exactly ARE you trying to hit when you don't do a called shot?
it gets to the point where your characters should ALWAYS be going for the head and an insta-kill
Head shots as instant kills are a myth perpetrated by video game limitations. Plenty of people get hurt on their heads and live.
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Certainly they do. But people who do called shots *expect* unique effects. Go for the eyes? Blood blinds them. Go for the legs? They're slowed by movement. Go for the neck? Well, what? Chop off their head?
I'm not saying all called shot systems have the 'hit the head they're dead' mechanic, just that a lot of people start to expect that when you put one in.
Even if you clearly define every mechanic, I still think it's an unnecessary complication, and still goes against the belief that your guys are already TRYING to hit those areas. It's part of the battle.
We use the "standard" size modifiers, requires a full attack action, and causes either a relevant -2 penalty to related actions (similar to PHB table) or double weapon damage.
IT doesnt come up very often though, its utility has pretty much been absorbed into the sunder mechanic. A variant of sunder could pretty well cover physical damage to a body part though....what are the hardness/HP per inch of flesh? lol.
One has to be careful though, otherwise I found that it really undermines the critical hit mechanic, as well as all fights becoming:
Ranger: I shoot him in the eye.
DM: Roll to hit AC 24
Ranger: No problem
DM: Uh...he has an...arrow sticking out of his eye...
Random Player: No Way! He should totally be dead!
Ranger: Take 9 damage.
Random player: An arrow in the eye? For 9 damage? LAME!
Certainly they do. But people who do called shots *expect* unique effects. Go for the eyes? Blood blinds them. Go for the legs? They're slowed by movement. Go for the neck? Well, what? Chop off their head?
I'm not saying all called shot systems have the 'hit the head they're dead' mechanic, just that a lot of people start to expect that when you put one in.
Even if you clearly define every mechanic, I still think it's an unnecessary complication, and still goes against the belief that your guys are already TRYING to hit those areas. It's part of the battle.
Sorry, I meant no offense. It's a pet peeve of mine, and I like to attack it out of context.
In principle, you are correct. Hit Points are very abstract and do not work well with such tactics. Nevertheless, I've found cause to allow players to attack specific bodyparts— not every combat is about bringing the opponent to the floor. A called shot can be helpful to a game, as long as it's not a full-blown combat option.
It's an old rant by me, take it or leave it. :)
If you really want to do called shots, there are a bunch of "Ambush" feats in the splatbook Complete Scoundrel, but only if you're already specially trained in hitting weak spots (i.e. if you have the Sneak Attack class feature). For instance, Deafening Strike makes the target deaf and Hamstring lowers the target's ground speed.
Creative Director
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I suspect the closest the PF RPG system will get to called shots is the critical hit deck, which kind of has "reverse" called shots (in that you don't get to pick where you're aiming, but when you critically hit something, many of the effects do have damage & effects to specific body parts).
I've gone with a large penalty to hit for called shots, and just made it a critical hit. Now it's a penalty to hit with success being a card from the Crit Hit Deck. :P
There still doesn’t seem to be any real definition on what called shots should actually do:
Are called shots a mechanic to take a penalty to hit in exchange for (1) increased damage, or (2) a special effect, or (3) some combination of the two?
This runs into trouble with the abstract nature of d20 combat. The normal presumption is that you’re already trying your best to hit and inflict as much damage as possible. That’s why damage is rolled to begin with - to reflect that you may connect with a variety of more-or-less sensitive areas with more or less force and accuracy. As it exists, the game handles this fairly abstractly; trading your chance to hit for more force or for hitting a more vital area? Use Power Attack. Describe it however you want. The system already handles that just fine.
Once you start getting specific, and expect results more complicated than hit point damage, this opens up a hornets nest of complications. Vital points are usually more heavily protected than non-vital ones - with thicker fur, heavier armor, or instinctive protective reflexes. They vary enormously between real species, much less in d20. (Do bone demons even have hearts?) You wind up getting into sectional armor, anatomy for fantastic creatures, whether or not particularly vital areas tend to be better defended by reflexes or training, modifiers for a wide variety of body shapes, differing estimates on just how crippling or disabling a particular blow should be, and so on. Some games are designed for that - Aftermath, Rolemaster, older versions of Runequest, and many others - but d20 is not. I’ve both played and run with this sort of system, and it does tend to be a trifle clunky in d20 games.
Are they simply more dramatic descriptions? You don’t need a mechanical system for that, just describe what’s happening in more detail. The “fact” that someone is “limping painfully” or “has blood trickling down into their eyes” doesn’t change a thing except other descriptions - “he winces as he strides forward to attack, but ignores the pain” or change “a precisely aimed shot” to “a lucky blow” for the guy with blood in his eyes. I’ve played and run lots of game like this. You can even run a hybrid: at some point during the combat - the GM will give a dramatic bit of description of his choice a mechanical effect (if you’re worried about “fairness” use the mechanics for Curses; the effect will apply until properly treated rather than having to be removed though). I’ve played and run with that too: it can be quite amusing.
Are called shots a chance to trade in damage for special effects? Passing up chances to land more forceful shots in exchange for damage to particular locations? This was the point of the experimental table above. This works fairly well for maintaining combat parity: it introduces only one new table, is purely optional, lets you either make progress towards victory by doing damage or by inflicting penalties, and offers a lot of chances for more complex battles and tactics beyond “I exhaust their hit points”: the enemy has an injury to the leg and you can now outrun them, you are forced to fall back and switch to a lighter secondary weapon because of the wound to your arm, and so on. It also limits the special effects you can produce by the creatures damage reduction, if any. On the downside, this relies on characters NOT being able to inflict vast amounts of damage with every blow since I didn’t bother to include a scaling modifier for size or challenge rating (you’d have to add modifiers based on creature size or challenge rating to the amounts you have to give up to produce particular effects), apparently conflicts with some attempts at visualization, and means that very high hit point monsters may be less challenging unless they make some effort to protect themselves against called shots.
That’s always the first step in creating a house rule, system add-on, or supplement. What do you actually want this to do?
I suspect the closest the PF RPG system will get to called shots is the critical hit deck, which kind of has "reverse" called shots (in that you don't get to pick where you're aiming, but when you critically hit something, many of the effects do have damage & effects to specific body parts).
... which is perfectly valid: you're re-interpreting the standard effect of a crit (simple extra damage) for a variant effect (blindness, ability damage, etc.). Using such a variant doesn't open up the can of worms of a player deliberately targeting a specific spot in the hope of a specific effect, and the befuddlement of rules logic that such a plan causes. :)
Here's what I use in my home game. Cripple. It uses the whole CMB thing from Pathfinder:
Cripple
A successful cripple attempt (standard action) deals normal damage and results in 2 points of cripple damage to either an opponent’s Str or Dex (but only if the opponent is susceptible to sneak attacks and critical hits). Subsequent attacks against the same ability score do not stack.
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I'm sure others have made the same warning, but if you've ever played GURPS, where you can specify body parts to attack, it almost always ends up with one person who will become known as "toe-hunter" for constantly chopping off feet. Realistic? You bet. Cinematic? Not really. Fun? Not so much. Any time you end up with a relatively small amount of damage that can essentially incapacitate the opponent, you're going to get people abusing that.
I'm sure others have made the same warning, but if you've ever played GURPS, where you can specify body parts to attack, it almost always ends up with one person who will become known as "toe-hunter" for constantly chopping off feet. Realistic? You bet. Cinematic? Not really. Fun? Not so much. Any time you end up with a relatively small amount of damage that can essentially incapacitate the opponent, you're going to get people abusing that.
Reminds me of playing Car Wars -- we'd build heavily armored boxes and then spend all of our time shooting at each others' tires.
Continuing in diabolical advocacy:
Sometimes you need a rule for hitting parts of people (or monsters).
The slaying of Smaug would have been a good degree less awesome if it wasn't Bard's marksmanship that hit one missing scale.
Things not to do:
It should go without saying, but GM arbitration is the way to go here. Most GMs will find something that works for them (the size table works for me). Entirely discounting the value of the procedure doesn't much help, though.
Actually, I really like the Combat Maneuver approach here. Fits right in with the other items available under the same rules. Trade damage for effect; strike with a bladed weapon, score the hit that scratches but isn't a serious wound, blinds as mentioned. Go for the legs, an appropriately armored character wouldn't necessarily get their hamstrings cut but it would certainly smart and slow them down some. Strike a solid blow on the forearm and they drop their weapon.
As to the discussion above, about "What are you doing if you're *not* going for those spots", I imagine in most combat scenarios you're just trying to survive. *Something* like a called shot system says "I'm not JUST trying to survive, and I'm not JUST blindly swinging at my opponent, I'm focusing in on a particular spot, give me a second, BAM!" - blind, slow, injure an arm, WITH PURPOSE. The crit-hit system is a good stand in for random luck of the draw, I swing and HAPPENED to hit them in an important spot, and crit-feats allow the addition of other effects, but they're not reliable. You have a 1 in 20 chance normally (1 in 10 if you have a 19-20/crit weapon, to say nothing of skill), and without the feats it simply deals damage.
Yea, I like the Combat Maneuver idea. Add a few new tricks to that list.
[Edit] And now I feel bad for the thread necro. Found the post ala Google and, forgetting it was a Google-find and I should really check the date, posted as I do when I'm here otherwise. Apologies!
Actually, I really like the Combat Maneuver approach here. Fits right in with the other items available under the same rules. Trade damage for effect; strike with a bladed weapon, score the hit that scratches but isn't a serious wound, blinds as mentioned.
This is a common suggestion.
Please consider this, though: a combat maneuver is an attack-like action where larger size is a benefit rather than a hindrance. This is the reasoning behind the special size modifier to CMB. Using maneuvers for called shots has the counter-intuitive effect of making specific parts of giant creatures much harder to hit than specific parts of tiny creatures.
You're better off leaving maneuvers out of it and sticking to normal attacks, where "smaller" equals "harder to hit".
My post on this topic. Exective summary: Called shots change the game you're playing in a very big way. Be sure you are ready for that change before introducing it.
I will however give another plug to A Man In Black's suggestion:
- When lethal damage is inflicted on a target, the attacker can choose any combination of temporary and/or permanent conditions to inflict on the target, up to and including instant death.
Because the rule takes place after the HP mechanics, combat is not changed at all. However, it allows a lot (!!) of flexibility in the game. I've adopted it as a house rule in my campaign, and here are some of the uses it's seen:
- The players needed to take an evil goblin cleric back alive in order to get a better reward. The Rogue inflicted a permanent coma on the goblin; he was alive, but he wouldn't wake up to escape or cause trouble.
- The players subdued an elf who was spying on them. The Barbarian decided to knock the elf unconscious. As the elf was helpless, a CDG was possible, but instead of inflicting death, the Barbarian inflicted temporary unconsciousness. They wanted to interrogate the elf later.
- The Rogue was tangling with a halfling from the thieves guild and inflicted lethal damage. The rogue decided to inflict temporary unconsciousness and permanent stable (not bleeding) on the halfling. He wanted to take the halfling alive.
I've enjoyed the rule. All the coolness of called shots while still keeping the d20 feel.