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As the thread says, my gaming group finished Rise of the Runelords today, and Karzoug was defeated (mostly). My players feel appropriately heroic, and, amazingly, only one character died (permanently) over the course of the entire AP. It was a blast, and I think everyone truly feels that Paizo published a quality product. Everyone is excited to start CotCT next week. That said, looking back, there are several things that I wish I had done differently and several things I DID do differently. In the interest of providing some feedback as well as possible guidance for those to come as they strive to prevent the return of the despicable Runelords, here are the things that I would or did do differently:
Burnt Offerings
This was a great start to the campaign and an adventure that my entire group enjoyed. I only wish I had played up the backgrounds a bit more and made the NPCs in this adventure more memorable for the players. As the DM, I know how interesting Nualia and her henchmen are, but I didn't do a good job of letting the PCs in on the whole backstory. I guess I didn't let them talk enough. Interaction with the NPCs in Sandpoint was pretty decent, though, and my players loved anything that had to do with getting to know and protecting the townsfolk. One of the PCs actually ended up marrying Shayliss in a huge ceremony. Sandpoint was a highlight of the adventure. I wish also that I had played up the wackiness of the goblins in Thistletop a bit more. When they attacked Sandpoint, I played it up, but at home, they were much more traditional goblins, which is a shame.
The Skinsaw Murders
My players' favorite adventure. It helped that I had the PC rogue burning down the area mills to impress the Szcarni. This naturally made him a suspect in the Sandpoint murders. Wheee! The scarecrow encounter didn't really work out for me, and I'm not sure if it was because I don't have the patience to run what was essentially a maze encounter, or if the individual ghouls were too easy. Either way, it ended up being pretty yawn-worthy. I should have played up the "human victims tied to sticks" aspect, to make the players unsure whether the twitching scarecrow was a ghoul worth killing or a human that needs to be saved. Foxglove Manor was amazing (everyone loves the haunts), even though Aldern was a little obvious as the bad guy. He was also a push-over at the end of the day, and I should have either: 1) given him some ghoul minions for support and 2) left him as a human. I think that would make what he's doing even creepier. Everyone knows monsters kill people ... when people kill people, that's eeeevil. I did the fix suggested for Xanesha and replaced her with Lucrecia from HMM, but it was still nearly a TPK, and escape came only with some friendly universe-shaking from the DM. So, in short, the encounters in this module were either too easy or too hard.
The Hook Mountain Massacre
This was probably my biggest change in the whole AP. I moved Fort Rannick MUCH closer to Sandpoint, playing on my players' desire to protect home-base, and they certainly appreciated it. I made Paradise a gambling den beneath the Fatman's Feedbag and let the rogue actually see it before it burnt down and killed his contacts in the Szcarni. The party met Xanesha and Lucrecia together and wiped them out this time. Overall, this part of the adventure went well, and my players leaped at the opportunity to fix up Fort Rannick and take over. In fact, the cleric in the party founded a new order, The Hand of the Light, to protect the surrounding countryside. In retrospect, I wish I had run the final battle with Barl Breakbones as a siege encounter, in which the remaining ogres and giants attacked Fort Rannick. As it stands, the players never got the opportunity to play with their new toy, which is the basic problem with the last half of the AP. After all this Sandpoint build-up ... off they go.
Fortress of the Stone Giants
This was probably the weakest of the adventures for my group, although the stone giant raid was awesome! Definitely one of the highlights of the campaign. From there, though, it seemed a bit unrealistic that these captives were hauled all the across the continent to be sacrificed and kept alive while the PCs traveled, planned, rested between fights, etc. The players wisely skipped most of the aboveground area of Jorgenfist, the black mummy and harpies were essentially a page-waste, and I dropped a lot of the off-theme encounters underground (the kobold barbarian, the trolls, the scanderig, and the shining child of Thassilon). I wish I had made the tribal situation above ground more political and something the PCs could have been involved in more directly. The idea that they just wander off after Mokmurian dies was sort of anti-climactic. I managed to rescue it a bit when the cleric took the Leadership feat. For his cohort, I gave him a young stone giant brave who had been sent to help the party by his tribe.
Sins of the Saviors
The Scribbler was a waste. I wish I had simply found another way to give the PCs the riddle that led to Runeforge. His guards and wards was simply annoying and he was a cakewalk, although the glabrezu caused some trouble. My players really enjoyed the remainder of this adventure, though, and the sin-themed dungeons were a hit. I wish they had been a bit more involved and that all 7 sins had had dungeons, but I understand space restrictions (stupid Scribbler!). The necromancy dungeon was too long, though, and I cut a fair number of the unnecessary encounters there. It was this adventure, by the way, in which my players finally commented on the Golarion diary fetish and vowed to never write anything down, when they became evil masterminds. I also should have either made the directions for creating runeforged weapons more clear or, since my players ended up with 6 different flavors of runeforged weapon, given them more opportunities to use the abilities of the non-domineering weapons.
Spires of Xin-Shalast
By this point in the campaign, my players were starting to look at each other at the beginning of each session and say things like, "Why are we doing this, again? We're trying to stop what now?" Karzoug had finally been identified as the BBEG, but the players had no sense of the urgency or of the consequences of failing to prevent his return. They had just been told (by a bad guy and a bad guy's diary, of course) that Karzoug needed to be stopped and said, "okay, I guess." I should have made it more clear how evil Karzoug was and made it more of a personal mission to stop him. At this point, they were so far away from Sandpoint that they had no personal attachment to anything that was going on at this point. The dwarven cottage was a nice touch, and one of my players actually said, "This is Pathfinder, so it's going to be creepy." I reworked Svevenka to make her a bit more interesting and useful, but my party never really needed her help, because ... they skipped Xin-Shalast. I should have seen it coming, but I figured they'd hit the Spire and then return to the city find Sihedron Rings. Turns out that the save DCs for the occlusion field were so ridiculously low that the whole party just weathered the storm until they killed some giants in the main spire and stole their rings. I did manage to throw Ghlorofaex at them, but they avoided everything else. Alas. Also, I didn't use the "death zone" altitude rules, as they seemed to be a real hassle and can only be overcome by a wizard (something my party lacked). The fights within the spire were pretty cool (except Viorian, who only got one turn), and the final battle against Ceoptra, Khalib, and minions was awesome.
In summary, my group very much enjoyed the AP, and I learned a great deal about how to run a whole campaign from start to finish (I ran Age of Worms, also, but RotRL was much more solid). I hope this information is an interesting read and maybe provides some suggestions for other DMs. YMMV. It seems CotCT has managed to correct some of the issues I had with RotRL, and I'm really looking forward to running it.
By the way, in case you're wondering, Karzoug was not slain. The party cleric managed to turn him into a ruby statue with Chellan, the sword of greed, and the Soul Lens was destroyed, stranding Karzoug in the pocket dimension of the Runewell as a statue, until someone comes along and dispels his transformation. Look for Rise of the Runelords II coming next summer, and this time it's personal!
O
Congratulations on finishing the AP. Finishing any AP is a real accomplishment. Probably only a fraction of the groups that start any given AP actually weather all the storms and see it to conclusion.
I agree with many of your points and will now, irrationally, take all credit for the idea of using Fort Rennick as a reverse Dungeon 'cause I have just that much of a swollen head.
Your issues in the last three adventures are, I feel, something of a damned if you do/ damned if you don't issue. The more you play up 'home' (in this case Sandpoint) the bigger the problem when the AP calls for the adventurers to leave home. There is no real solution that I can see here. Certainly one can write APs that never leave home but I don't think anyone wants to only that one kind of AP. Exploration is as valid a theme for an AP as protecting home. On the other hand do we really want to make all our cities and towns, especially starting cities and towns, seem like card board just so it does not hurt to have them left behind by the AP? Somehow I can't see that as much of a solution.
Huzzah! And as Jeremy says well done for the completion, my own group are stumbling around the conclusion of the Styes AP and we had a very hairy moment in the last adventure when a TPK was possible.
I’m also flattered that Skinsaw was your player’s favourite, not just because of the quality of other writers but because as you may know Burnt Offerings is rightly up for an Ennie.
Skinsaw was interesting in that it was the first adventure of that length I’d written and it is very interesting to see the difficulties that brings up - for example, for a 20K word adventure I'd be looking for about 3 mega set pieces or areas that were very memorable, with various options at getting at them with say a good floating (not literally floating, or hey - maybe that's an idea...) villain. The difficulty is that twice the length does not mean twice the scenes, and it was very tricky to work Skinsaw - in fact as I've said before James did a great job of changing things to fit the overall pattern and as ever (and as with Escape) the end result is more satisfying.
When (and if) I come to tackle something of this length again I'll be learning from the two adventures so far and from the feedback received, in the same way that Hollow Threats and Devil Box led to the Styes adventure, but suffice it to say for this fellow it was a much different experience writing 50K than 25 (and not just in the amount of work) – I can only liken it to the difference between writing a short story and tackling a novel in that they are two very different beasts. Of course however it was great fun to be tested in this way.
The great thing is the quality of people around Paizo to ask opinions of and of course the feedback which, as you know, is always taken very seriously by all concerned.
Congrats again.
Rich
Major spoilers below!
My group is about half-way through Sins of the saviors. Skinsaw was their favorite book as well for the flavor and descriptions of the manor. They are actually still haunted by it. On the rare occasions when the party returns to Sandpoint they always stop by the manor and try their latest array of spells trying to figure out how to burn it down.
The only major problem with skinsaw was the actual encounters. The lamai was insanely overpowered for the characters level, and she also had all the terrain advantages with little in the way of escape opportunity for the vastly overmatched players, again it took DM fudging for the party to escape with their lives.
Foxglove was a wuss, but his wife was a pretty good fight.
The biggest disappointment though was ironbrar, that was a two round fight, his minions were all one-hit-wonders (took exactly one hit to kill them) and he wasn't much better. They couldn't believe he was the dungeon boss after they killed him pretty much the second he nixed his invisibility.
There was a common theme among all the books save Sins of the Saviors, and that being that most of the encounter areas were not appropriately sized, Either too big, or usually too small. Some fights were in rooms where once you added in 4 or 5 PC's and the figs for the monsters, there was no room to move at all. I remember one room that described a dozen large sized statues, some of which where combatants, I wanted to put in a dozen large figs as the rogue wanted to sneak explore the room. And I found that the room could not hold a dozen large sized figs. I believe that was in fortress of the stone giants.
Overall great AP. I can't wait for crimson throne because I get to be a player instead of a DM :)
My plan for the transition to book 6 though is to introduce a new NPC, to give them the information of the sandpoint sage. For one I can't fathom that the party is going to return to sandpoint after sins, there seems to be no reason to. And also they have made numerous snarky comments predicting that the so far worthless sandpoint sage will have all the answers at the end. (they used to always try to ask him stuff, but he never really new anything, now they view him as pretty much a boob) Maybe it will annoy them less if a competent scholar tracks them down after hearing of their exploits, not really sure.
Got to agree that Skinsaw was by far the favorite of the group. Also Burnt Offerings is even better mixing the villian into the characters backgrounds. We haven't quite finished the AP yet (in middle of Sins). However, I have been mixing Age of Worms/Seven Swords in as well as a bigger part with Leng, does stretch it. The wizard had the towers in the Fort smoothed for scyring. :)
I also have to agree that Scribbler and The Jorgenfist were the weakest. I let the party unite an army with the Hell Knights, Magnimar, Elder Stone Giants and a few others to do a strike force. One wacky battle to run but a lot of fun.
Overall the AP was so well done by Paizo, one of my players is going to dm Crimson Throne. Bieng the always DM, this is great news. :)
Weak?!
I'll show you weak, you ingrates!!!!
**scribbles profanity and gibberish all over thread**
Mwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
I agree with many of your points and will now, irrationally, take all credit for the idea of using Fort Rennick as a reverse Dungeon 'cause I have just that much of a swollen head.
Yeah, it wasn't my idea. So someone else should take the credit.
Your issues in the last three adventures are, I feel, something of a damned if you do/ damned if you don't issue. The more you play up 'home' (in this case Sandpoint) the bigger the problem when the AP calls for the adventurers to leave home. There is no real solution that I can see here. Certainly one can write APs that never leave home but I don't think anyone wants to only that one kind of AP. Exploration is as valid a theme for an AP as protecting home. On the other hand do we really want to make all our cities and towns, especially starting cities and towns, seem like card board just so it does not hurt to have them left behind by the AP? Somehow I can't see that as much of a solution.
I think the solution to this is to connect the danger to Sandpoint, even if it resides some distance away. As I mentioned in the synopsis of SoXS, it's not entirely clear at the end of the adventure why Karzoug is such a great threat, particularly to a place as far away as Sandpoint. As the module itself points out, it's unlikely that anyone will really notice that the PCs just saved the world (and I'm not sure they would really know it, themselves, if it weren't for me filling in some holes during the AP "after party.") If it is clear that Karzoug's return is a Very Bad Thing for everyone, including the residents of Sandpoint, then the distance and travel thing isn't a problem, because the heroes are still protecting their homes. There is a personal attachment in that case that was missing from the end of the AP as written. This is the single most important fix, in my opinion, to change RotRL from a great campaign to a truly amazing one.
O
The great thing is the quality of people around Paizo to ask opinions of and of course the feedback which, as you know, is always taken very seriously by all concerned.
I must add that it is pretty cool that the Paizo boards allow for this sort of direct communication with the writers and editors of the adventures that we come to love reading and playing. I am not much of a fanboy, but I really appreciate the direct responses I have received in the past from the Paizo staff and freelance writers.
It's also fun to think that in some way my party's experience and feedback actually have a small effect on future adventures and products because the folks who are making these things are so willing to accept and consider praise and constructive criticism.
Thanks for putting together quality products, and I hope to enjoy years more of Paizo adventure paths.
O
Here are mine:
(1) Burnt Offerings went well for us, but Nualia's carefully described henchmen were anonymous in my hands as well. I should have gotten one or more of them on stage in Sandpoint.
(2) I loved Skinsaw when I read it, but it was rocky to run. For some reason the ghoul/scarecrow thing did not work for us, and there was a disconnect between the Foxglove Manor haunts and what you were actually supposed to do there. I ended up having Aldern as a living but ghoulish human, and the PCs came up with a way to use him as bait to kill off Vorel. That helped, but my player had to pitch in to find this rewrite, which is never entirely satisfying.
I had the same experience with Magnimar as many others, namely that Ironbriar was shockingly easy and Xanesha was way too hard.
(3) I wish I had moved Hook Mountain closer, because my player was disinclined to go there. He did end up making some connections, not with Turtleback Ferry but with Sanos Forest--I did a couple of side adventures there, and in retrospect wish I'd done more.
This did help set up Jorgenfist, as I was able to feed in information about the giant raids via Sanos Forest allies. The PCs also captured and recruited one of Barl's bodyguards.
(4) The fight at the beginning of Fortress was superb, one of my favorite parts of the campaign. I put in some giantish politics to make Jorgenfist more interesting--the giants offered to side with the PCs against Mokmurian if only the PCs could retrieve some hostage giantish elders and destroy the Cauldron. I also took out a lot of irrelevant encounters (and could have taken out more, in retrospect) and replaced them with a decent number of giant guards. Alas, Jorgenfist was still pretty flat.
(5) I put the Runeforge gate under Sandpoint and had the Scribbler capture various townsfolk and send them through. This helped the connectedness somewhat. I put a lot of work into trying to make Runeforge more political, with some success--the PCs ended up allying with Athroxis, who became an interesting continuing NPC. I also cut most of the traps, and regretted every one I didn't cut--they really did not work for me at all.
I should have made the undead dungeon smaller, and should have explained the runeforged weapons better. My PCs also made all different kinds, and were disappointed in them. The whole opposing-sins theme was flat in play--it's too abstract for me.
Around this time the PCs knew in detail who Karzoug was, and felt that he had possession of the souls of many of their Sandpoint friends and allies. They had no problem finding reasons to oppose him, but the whole Runeforge arc seemed too indirect and oblique to them--they were ready to go after him straight away, and frustrated by Runeforge. It's especially problematic that after that huge digression the runeforged weapons weren't essential or even particularly useful.
(6) The PCs were indifferent to the wendigo cabin. In my hands, haunts work better for lower level PCs. They were interested in Xin-Shalast, though, and I had to write a ton of stuff--there is no support for protracted play down there. They basically set out to wipe out *all* of the lamia matriarchs and Rune Giants, with help from the plant-creatures. It was cumbersome to run and took way too much prep. The actual Spire ascent was a large but not very challenging fight followed by Karzoug's instant death. I don't know what I should have done with Xin-Shalast but it wasn't a big success. I'm proud of having run an AP to the end, though: didn't succeed with any of the previous ones.
In retrospect I guess I should have cut all of Xin-Shalast but the Spires--that fight would have been fresher if it hadn't been the fourth or fifth time the PCs were up against those exact foes. I love the idea of exploring a long ruined city but it didn't work here, partly because the PCs were way too high level, partly because they were in a hurry, and partly because Xin-Shalast is not actually abandoned, nor is there much there worth exploring.
I think that the AP's biggest problem is that the PCs become attached to Sandpoint and resent being removed--at least mine did--and never have a chance to make a new set of attachments, so the end modules are weakly motivated. My player wanted to make much stronger attachments to the giants after Jorgenfist, and in fact would have liked to ride into Xin-Shalast at the head of a giantish army--but the Rune Giant powers make this plan unfeasible, to say the least. Anyway army combat is a huge weakness of D&D, so I don't know how I'd have run that.
Mary
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We are early inSins of the Saviors.
My group has really enjoyed the whole path so far. And I have run it pretty straight.
After Jorgenfist they teleported back to Sandpoint to consult the Sage about all the information they found in the library and was wondering if old light might have something to do with the Runforge. The collected some information and found about the sinkhole. They investigated and after they got the poem they went back to the Libray in Jorgenfist to research the Runeforge.
It has all worked out great so far. They are now trying to figure out where the Runeforge is. One PC has almost got it pinpointed and they should be on their way next session.
It has been a great run.
It's especially problematic that after that huge digression the runeforged weapons weren't essential or even particularly useful.
You're right that the Runeforged weapons are poorly advertised as "pivotal in [Karzoug's] defeat." In reality, they are certainly not necessary.
I think that should be a serious recommendation for DMs who haven't gotten there yet: make the runeforged weapons important! An entire adventure is spent retrieving the things, make them mean something.
O
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So far, for my group, on the AP is that Burnt Offerings is the player's favorite.
After that they have trudged along with each having a favorite or a heavy dislike. Skinsaw all but one really liked. Hookmountian had a 60/40 like/dislike and Fortress had some clunkyness to it.
If I had to run it again I would also set things closer to Sandpoint and Magnimar as these two places held the most love by the party. Add to it senseless death due to poor choices by players and i am sure there would be much more connection, but this later point is no fault of the AP.
When I run CotCT I will try to make sure that I remember the minor mistakes I made and that the AP mad and try to make it mesh better, although CotCT seems to handle this better than RotRL.
No matter what these are great even with minor points of debate. So thanks again paizo for a great job.
Thanks for the heads' up.
I'll probably have the leftover ruins of Kazoug's empire start pulsing lightly around the time the Paradise sinks (like Thistle Top and that Barn's head at the farm) and have the pulses become more frequent and more intense as the story goes forwards to forshadow the possible coming of Karzoug and the opening of the ruins under sandpoint.
I will also flag the importance domineering weapons in a special book (or encyclopedia) of the Fortress' librairie where the monks had a contigency plan if Karzoug got too heavy handed. I might actually use that to skip the scribbler or change the encounter to a non-combat one, but that's probably a year away, we'll see.
I have to confess, I haven’t bought Spires yet so I’m a bit in the dark with this suggestion, but is there a way to introduce Karzoug to the players well before the final mod?
I don’t know exactly when or how, but if the PCs got a chance to barely survive against the Big K and his giant army, they might be more inclined to see him as a major threat AND feel motivated to search for weapons powerful enough to defeat him.
What if, maybe, Karzoug were entombed in Jorgenfist? When the PCs slay all them runemarked giants, Big K rises right up in front of them, swats them aside, and tells them to their faces what he has in store for their lands. Then he departs to regain his capital, leaving the PCs run in fear and move to Andoran…umm…I mean try to find a weapon against him.
I have to confess, I haven’t bought Spires yet so I’m a bit in the dark with this suggestion, but is there a way to introduce Karzoug to the players well before the final mod?
I don’t know exactly when or how, but if the PCs got a chance to barely survive against the Big K and his giant army, they might be more inclined to see him as a major threat AND feel motivated to search for weapons powerful enough to defeat him.
What if, maybe, Karzoug were entombed in Jorgenfist? When the PCs slay all them runemarked giants, Big K rises right up in front of them, swats them aside, and tells them to their faces what he has in store for their lands. Then he departs to regain his capital, leaving the PCs run in fear and move to Andoran…umm…I mean try to find a weapon against him.
While this idea would certainly strike some fear into the party, it would likely also strike some TPK into the party, as well. It would be difficult to justify Karzoug (an epic, elite, butt-kickin' 22nd level character) not mopping up the whole party in about 2 rounds. Something like this could work if it were only a "partial manifestation," like the statues sprinkled throughout the Spire (I think placing an actual Karzoug there would ruin some of the fun of the final scene of the AP).
But I really think that the best option is to make Karzoug's potential return seem like a literally earth-shattering disaster, not just the arrival of a real powerful guy. It might help if the PCs somehow got wind of the function of the Leng Device and realized that, one way or another, it spells doom for the continent.
O
How much would it wreck things if the players heard rumors of a "long-dead evil which may one day return" early on? I'm thinking a Varisian fortune-teller that everyone ignores or some such thing. That would perhaps at least introduce the concept of Karzoug early enough that the players would get used to the idea that they need to track him down and destroy him.
I'm starting my RotRL campaign in two weeks, and have been considering this aspect for some time now.
Any thoughts???
I think that's a step in the right direction and certainly a valuable foreshadowing tool, but sometime around the beginning of Fortress the PCs should really know who Karzoug is, that he's on his way back, and that he will kick some major heiny (sp?). Maybe between information they acquire from Barl Breakbones and Teraktinus (if he's questioned), they could be alerted to the details. Certainly, the Library under Jorgenfist should be giving the final details of Karzoug's plot (without revealing the location of Xin-Shalast).
I think a really important point to make, also, is that the PCs have not saved the day when they defeat Mokmurian and disband the army of giants. Karzoug plans to lay down some smack on everyone (including Sandpoint), and the PCs have to know that. Small, pervasive hints, like many repetitions of your example, will also help to make it clear that everyone should be worried.
This may all sound like overkill, but I don't think it's possible to overplay the danger, if you want the final confrontation to have some tension and drama.
O
How much would it wreck things if the players heard rumors of a "long-dead evil which may one day return" early on? I'm thinking a Varisian fortune-teller that everyone ignores or some such thing. That would perhaps at least introduce the concept of Karzoug early enough that the players would get used to the idea that they need to track him down and destroy him.
I'm starting my RotRL campaign in two weeks, and have been considering this aspect for some time now.
Any thoughts???
I think that's a step in the right direction and certainly a valuable foreshadowing tool, but sometime around the beginning of Fortress the PCs should really know who Karzoug is, that he's on his way back, and that he will kick some major heiny (sp?). Maybe between information they acquire from Barl Breakbones and Teraktinus (if he's questioned), they could be alerted to the details. Certainly, the Library under Jorgenfist should be giving the final details of Karzoug's plot (without revealing the location of Xin-Shalast).
I think a really important point to make, also, is that the PCs have not saved the day when they defeat Mokmurian and disband the army of giants. Karzoug plans to lay down some smack on everyone (including Sandpoint), and the PCs have to know that. Small, pervasive hints, like many repetitions of your example, will also help to make it clear that everyone should be worried.
This may all sound like overkill, but I don't think it's possible to overplay the danger, if you want the final confrontation to have some tension and drama.
O
The problem here is that it starts to get harder and harder to explain why no one else is doing anything. Unless you want to expand out the AP to show that others are doing something - which is a lot of extra work. Hence the 'secret evil' only the PCs are really aware of does have some significant benefits in explaining why its up to the PCs to be the heros.
For various reasons my player knew what was going on quite early. This does improve the sense of engagement of the later modules, but it also leads to problems. We've seen this same conflict in every AP we've done: if you don't let the PCs find out what's going on (SCAP) the late modules are flat and unengaging, but if you do you run several risks:
(1) The PCs become fixated on the endgame and the middle doesn't hold their attention. In my RotRL, the PCs knew essentially everything about Karzoug by the end of 4 (except for the Leng material and the Rune Giants) and it took metagame pressure to prevent them from going after him immediately. (Yes, they are too low level, but that's not a very satisfying reason not to go after him.)
This was exacerbated by the fact that, except for levels, Sins of the Saviors doesn't pay off: the runeforged weapons are not useful enough to justify going in there after them. My player made a long-term alliance with Athroxis, which helped make Runeforge seem a bit more relevant, but in the end it still felt as though going there had been an error in judgment, a case of being distracted by irrelevancies.
(2) The PCs may know that they are up against a powerful foe long before they feel they are capable of handling him. This wasn't so bad in RotRL because Karzoug is not able to act freely, but in our more-information version of SCAP it was a player morale killer. It was dead obvious that if the bad guys had an ounce of brains, they would kill the PCs at a point where it was easy and safe to do so. (In fact, the backstory shows exactly this happening to party after party.) It became hard to believe in the party's continued survival.
CotCT seems to me to have this problem in spades. Both problems, in fact. The PCs can figure out very early who is the cause of their major problems (at least, the immediate cause). They can't handle that person, however, nor is there any clear reason why she doesn't crush them as soon as they become annoying to her. If I were running it I would worry about this a lot.
All this said, though, I enjoyed the information-rich approach to RotRL a lot more than I would have enjoyed the information-poor one. My player figured out the Sihedron ritual *very* early due to an unexpected string of events involving raising Xanesha as a ghoul under Aldern's control, and in retrospect I'm really glad that happened--it gave Karzoug's evil a lot more weight. (He might seem petty otherwise--powerful, but with no real greatness or emotional stature.)
Mary
This was exacerbated by the fact that, except for levels, Sins of the Saviors doesn't pay off: the runeforged weapons are not useful enough to justify going in there after them. My player made a long-term alliance with Athroxis, which helped make Runeforge seem a bit more relevant, but in the end it still felt as though going there had been an error in judgment, a case of being distracted by irrelevancies.
As I mentioned above, I think it is vital to increase the value of the runforged weapons. Make it clear to the players that Karzoug is waaaay too cool to beat without them. Alternately, it's not him you need to beat with the runeforged weapons, but a protector of his Spire (making the Occlusion Field way tougher would be another way to make the Domineering weapons more useful. Any 15th level PC who can't make a DC 20 Fort and a DC 20 Will should be taken out back and mulched to help nourish his replacement.)
(2) The PCs may know that they are up against a powerful foe long before they feel they are capable of handling him. This wasn't so bad in RotRL because Karzoug is not able to act freely, but in our more-information version of SCAP it was a player morale killer. It was dead obvious that if the bad guys had an ounce of brains, they would kill the PCs at a point where it was easy and safe to do so. (In fact, the backstory shows exactly this happening to party after party.) It became hard to believe in the party's continued survival.
CotCT seems to me to have this problem in spades. Both problems, in fact.
I agree that the second problem is an issue in CotCT, but not so much the first. It should be clear, after the opening of Escape that the BBEG is way to BB for the PCs until they go retrieve the magical Maguffin in Skeletons.
As for the second problem, I think I will do my best to encourage the PCs to be as low-key as possible through the first 3 adventures and not tossing their names and faces around. It is still likely that someone evil will know who they are, but I am a firm believer that BBEGs are way too cocky to worry about, track down, and smoosh the ants that our PCs are through the beginning stages of the AP.
O
While this idea would certainly strike some fear into the party, it would likely also strike some TPK into the party, as well. It would be difficult to justify Karzoug (an epic, elite, b!&%-kickin' 22nd level character) not mopping up the whole party in about 2 rounds.
22nd level? Really?!? Good Lord!
Would it make much of a difference if he didn't have his magic items? Or if he didn't have any memorized spells? Even thus weakened he could still clean up the party but would be motivated to return to Xin-Shalast as soon as possible to recover.
Ultimately, though, the idea *is* to have him mop up the party in two rounds. It's a shame he's not the Runelord of Pride 'cause then it'd be easy to justify an archvillain-style monologue where he tells the heroes his plans and lets them live in the face of hopelessness.
I'm thinking a Varisian fortune-teller that everyone ignores or some such thing. That would perhaps at least introduce the concept of Karzoug early enough that the players would get used to the idea that they need to track him down and destroy him.
Or better yet, word the predictions or readings in such a way that the players think it's Mokmurian and his stone giant army that's the approaching doom. Stuff like "greed from the mountains" or "stones of power" or "long dormant rising" (if you can tie that into the stone giants' history of pasivity).
Come the end of Hook Mountain, the players will be all "Stone giants?! That's what Granny was trying to warn us about." so that when they finally do defeat Mockmurian and the giant army, they can return to Sandpoint and say "well, that takes care of that."
And granny will say "no, it doesn't."
CEO
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There was a common theme among all the books save Sins of the Saviors, and that being that most of the encounter areas were not appropriately sized, Either too big, or usually too small. Some fights were in rooms where once you added in 4 or 5 PC's and the figs for the monsters, there was no room to move at all. I remember one room that described a dozen large sized statues, some of which where combatants, I wanted to put in a dozen large figs as the rogue wanted to sneak explore the room. And I found that the room could not hold a dozen large sized figs. I believe that was in fortress of the stone giants.
I actually agree with the size of the room thoughts. I tend to make the squares 10' instead of the 5' listed, and that tends to fix the problem. Also, I tend to adjust the maps on the fly to fit my own sense of drama. In general, I have never run any of our AP adventures at the scale drawn on the maps. Maybe I should talk to someone about this... :)
-Lisa
This was exacerbated by the fact that, except for levels, Sins of the Saviors doesn't pay off: the runeforged weapons are not useful enough to justify going in there after them. My player made a long-term alliance with Athroxis, which helped make Runeforge seem a bit more relevant, but in the end it still felt as though going there had been an error in judgment, a case of being distracted by irrelevancies.
As I mentioned above, I think it is vital to increase the value of the runforged weapons. Make it clear to the players that Karzoug is waaaay too cool to beat without them. Alternately, it's not him you need to beat with the runeforged weapons, but a protector of his Spire (making the Occlusion Field way tougher would be another way to make the Domineering weapons more useful. Any 15th level PC who can't make a DC 20 Fort and a DC 20 Will should be taken out back and mulched to help nourish his replacement.)
(2) The PCs may know that they are up against a powerful foe long before they feel they are capable of handling him. This wasn't so bad in RotRL because Karzoug is not able to act freely, but in our more-information version of SCAP it was a player morale killer. It was dead obvious that if the bad guys had an ounce of brains, they would kill the PCs at a point where it was easy and safe to do so. (In fact, the backstory shows exactly this happening to party after party.) It became hard to believe in the party's continued survival.
CotCT seems to me to have this problem in spades. Both problems, in fact.
I agree that the second problem is an issue in CotCT, but not so much the first. It should be clear, after the opening of Escape that the BBEG is way to BB for the PCs until they go retrieve the magical Maguffin in Skeletons.
As for the second problem, I think I will do my best to encourage the PCs to be as low-key as possible through the first 3 adventures and not tossing their names and faces around. It is still likely...
Actually, in CotCt I don't see the second problem. The moment the players become a blip on the BBEG's radar she sends the nastiest group of assassins in the world after them. I'd call that pretty forceful. The only thing that saves the characters (potentially anyway) is fleeing the city.
Because, really, there's no way she's actually going to physically go after the players. She's a Queen and there are people for that.
There was a common theme among all the books save Sins of the Saviors, and that being that most of the encounter areas were not appropriately sized, Either too big, or usually too small. Some fights were in rooms where once you added in 4 or 5 PC's and the figs for the monsters, there was no room to move at all. I remember one room that described a dozen large sized statues, some of which where combatants, I wanted to put in a dozen large figs as the rogue wanted to sneak explore the room. And I found that the room could not hold a dozen large sized figs. I believe that was in fortress of the stone giants.I actually agree with the size of the room thoughts. I tend to make the squares 10' instead of the 5' listed, and that tends to fix the problem. Also, I tend to adjust the maps on the fly to fit my own sense of drama. In general, I have never run any of our AP adventures at the scale drawn on the maps. Maybe I should talk to someone about this... :)
-Lisa
I don't have too much to add, since I am only starting Chapter 4 with my group... but one of the few negative comments I get from the players are about the maps. They are pretty, but way too crowded.
I have gotten this comment each and every chapter so far. I'd say something silly, but I want Editorial to take it seriously.
I also know Editorial doesn't always get good maps from the writers and freelancers, and that is frustrating as hell for them.. so I am not finger pointing.. but if you want a new quality benchmark to surpass.. look at map spacing.
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Thank you very much for sharing your experience with us! It is very enlightening! My group is at the start of Fortress of the Stone Giants (we just finished the Sandpoint Raid), so I will try to set things up so that the trip to Runeforge feels more justified, and that the Runeforged weapons are more useful overall. I will also try to make sure that Karzoug's impending return sounds like REALLY BAD NEWS for every decent person in Golarion. :)
So far, my player liked every adventure. The only major editting I did was to make the group avoid fighting Xanesha at the end of the 2nd adventure (she just found out that the cultists had died, and that her cover was blown, so she left town - otherwise, she would've killed them all), and to give them a better reason to go to Fort Rannick; some of the PC's also spent some time in Fort Rannick and met the rangers before the fort was attacked. I really liked this, it became much more personal after that when they tried to retake the fort.
And yes, please, if you're going to comment about CotCT, please do so in spoiler tags. :) Some of us haven't read/played those adventures yet. :)
I don't have too much to add, since I am only starting Chapter 4 with my group... but one of the few negative comments I get from the players are about the maps. They are pretty, but way too crowded.I have gotten this comment each and every chapter so far. I'd say something silly, but I want Editorial to take it seriously.
I also know Editorial doesn't always get good maps from the writers and freelancers, and that is frustrating as hell for them.. so I am not finger pointing.. but if you want a new quality benchmark to surpass.. look at map spacing.
I think their fairly spot on. The problem is that people don't really take up 5' spaces. Its a tad tricky to tell the cartographer that you want something thats utterly unrealistic but that will nicely conform to 5' spaces. I mean the cartographer will presumably try and accommodate and all but its not really cut and dried IMO.
I think their fairly spot on. The problem is that people don't really take up 5' spaces. Its a tad tricky to tell the cartographer that you want something thats utterly unrealistic but that will nicely conform to 5' spaces. I mean the cartographer will presumably try and accommodate and all but its not really cut and dried IMO.
Yeah, I've been forced to let characters share squares on occasion. For example, I had more than one person in the pit trap on the second dungeon level of Thistletop.
The party mage was bull rushed and landed in there. And then the bugbear took a 5-foot step and dropped in there with the mage because he was low on hp after getting attacked by multiple PCs. The mage didn't threaten, so he could safely dring a healing potion without provoking an AoO. (I thought I was pretty clever there. The players all said "No! He's drinking our loot!)
Technically, it would be an illegal square for him unless he was initiating a grapple. So, what, gravity doesn't work and he hovers over the pit? So if you build a 5'x5' pit trap, it can only damage one person at a time? (because everyone else hovers in the air until there's a "legal square" to land in)
Maybe I should talk to someone about this... :)
You're the boss, I assume they'll listen.
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I’m also flattered that Skinsaw was your player’s favourite, not just because of the quality of other writers but because as you may know Burnt Offerings is rightly up for an Ennie.
Skinsaw wasn't nominated I read, because it was sold out and the judges did not have a copy. Skinsaw rocks. My players really love it (though their characters hate it!)
I've only run up through Skinsaw.
1) Burnt Offerings--its good to cut the players some slack I think and let them learn about Nulia and her tragic story, either because they were in Sandpoint when she was younger or from Tsuto or from townsfolk.
The NPCs at Thistletop got some run. Orik is a henchman and the female mage is imprisoned in Spoint. The Malfeshenkor and quasit encounters can be really a TPK unless the PCs have the right weapons and some luck. I guess the term is 'swingy'
2)The scarecrow/ghoul encounter. I did not run it like a maze, but like a running battle. Once one ghoul was 'activated' the rest started closing in on the group (kinda like Aliens). The PCs loved it, and the mounted warrior got to shine by splattering ghouls right and left. Then the PCs assaulted the farmhouse.
Haunts--I've been good about playing up the creep factor and tossing in non-lethal encounters to augment this. I also added an attic whisperer up top (the daughter of Vorel, Lorey who died of the phage with her mom) in the attic.